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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 01-15-2009, 11:57 PM
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I liked the equal protection argument with the county allowing the Scottish games to bring firearms on site
They really gave no good defense in that as they dont allow the gun show to bring in firearms with the same rules (keeping them secure)

One of the memorable things I remember is when the county mentioned that the gun show would bring "hundreds of thousands of guns"
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  #42  
Old 01-15-2009, 11:58 PM
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Their problem probably was that they thought they were being reasonable, so they forgot what reasonable is in the wide world out there.
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  #43  
Old 01-15-2009, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
One of the memorable things I remember is when the county mentioned that the gun show would bring "hundreds of thousands of guns"
They have delusions of grandeur. It's Alameda County, not Las Vegas or Reno
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  #44  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
I liked the equal protection argument with the county allowing the Scottish games to bring firearms on site
They really gave no good defense in that as they dont allow the gun show to bring in firearms with the same rules (keeping them secure)

One of the memorable things I remember is when the county mentioned that the gun show would bring "hundreds of thousands of guns"
One question I would have like addressed is whether or not the Scottish Games folks actually submitted a "plan" for their "event". I believe the County didn't feel it was required because only select individuals at the Scottish games would be armed, but it would have been a good point for the Justices to flush out.
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  #45  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by nick View Post
They have delusions of grandeur. It's Alameda County, not Las Vegas or Reno
well hopefully next year at the Alameda county fairgrounds gun show we can bring in the hundreds of thousands he spoke of
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  #46  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:02 AM
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One question I would have like addressed is whether or not the Scottish Games folks actually submitted a "plan" for their "event". I believe the County didn't feel it was required because only select individuals at the Scottish games would be armed, but it would have been a good point for the Justices to flush out.
I was curious on that as well
I also wondered why they thought it was ok to have the participants in the games carry guns while the participants in the gun show could not
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  #47  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:06 AM
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I heard hundreds if not thousands, not hundreds of thousands.
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  #48  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:07 AM
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I heard hundreds if not thousands, not hundreds of thousands.
Hmmm maybe I heard it wrong then
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  #49  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:12 AM
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That's how I hear it too....far less funny though.
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  #50  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:12 AM
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well hopefully next year at the Alameda county fairgrounds gun show we can bring in the hundreds of thousands he spoke of
Noooo! I need to save for a house!
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  #51  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FreedomIsNotFree View Post
One question I would have like addressed is whether or not the Scottish Games folks actually submitted a "plan" for their "event". I believe the County didn't feel it was required because only select individuals at the Scottish games would be armed, but it would have been a good point for the Justices to flush out.
Actually, it seems like everyone has weapons at the Scottish games. And there was one booth when I was there that sold rifles along with swords, knives and other pointy things.
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  #52  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:19 AM
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Forgive my ignorance. What is Scottish Games?
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  #53  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:24 AM
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Forgive my ignorance. What is Scottish Games?
http://www.caledonian.org/
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  #54  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:26 AM
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Forgive my ignorance. What is Scottish Games?
OMG, first I think men look very sexy in kilts. But, the scottish games are pretty much just that. Men and women have athletic competitions, and there are dancing competitions, and lots of bagpipes. It's like anyone who claims to be scottish goes there every year. I went two years ago with some friends because their daughter played the bagpipes for Upland High School. Oh and for those of you who love scotch, there is a whiskey tasting the night before.
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  #55  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:28 AM
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Men in skirts from San Francisco, why does that not surprise me?

I can see why whiskey tasting is needed the night before.
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  #56  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:31 AM
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The experience today of going to the courthouse was fantastic. I have not been before to an oral argument deciding a constitutional issue. The calgunners were present in large numbers and well-dressed.

The judge's questioning of both attorneys was thoughtful, and both attorney's responded adeptly. The plaintiff (Don) was well-prepared and responded well to all questions. The defendant got slightly flustered at one point as he seemed to be cornered by his own argument. And at another point he provoked some slight mockery from one of the judges who said, "It seems strange to me that, to say that you can have a gun show without the showing of guns," which elicited laughter from the gallery. The defendant responded, "Good point," and, "The sale could be consummated there and perhaps the individual could view the firearm immediately off the government property." I can just imagine people leaving the gun show to retire to a van parked on the street nearby to effect a firearms sale. REALLY?!?! They find this idea preferable to a safely organized and secured gun show?

Having no experience with trials like this, I cannot venture to reliably predict the outcome, but going only by what I witnessed I would say that it appears that we have a very good shot of winning on the point of the suit regarding the prohibition of gun shows. On the broader objective of attaining incorporation for the Heller decision to the state, I would say it appears there were significant hurdles to overcome in making that case to the judges' satisfaction. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but it might depend on how willing the judges are to be bold and make a name for themselves.

I think incorporation of Heller clearly and inevitably should be applied, but in this case, regarding gun shows on county property, there were significant points in the arguments where it appeared that this case simply may not closely enough hit upon the legal territory addressed by Heller to be able to draw a conclusive connection and apply that case here. Nonetheless, Don made the most persuasive arguments to that end that I could imagine based on the facts in the case.

We'll see!

Thanks to the CalGunners for getting the word out on this and organizing our mass presence. We filled the main courtroom and the overflow courtroom and apparently even had a few in the second overflow in the cafeteria.
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  #57  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:31 AM
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Looks pretty tough. Hmm, when I was throwing those logs as a kid, little did I know it was my Scottish ancestry manifesting itself. Oh wait, I don't have any
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  #58  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:34 AM
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Oh well, back to the waiting game. 3 months isn't that long a wait, considering. Let's hope it'll be worth the wait.
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  #59  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:35 AM
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I've never heard oral arguments in a trial like this before but what I found interesting was when one of the judges kept drilling down the path to find some way for the gun show to be conducted with the current restriction. It almost seemed as if he wanted our side to provide that plan and then have the county fairgrounds review it. Although, we're right back at the argument of how can you have a gunshow without guns...
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:14 AM
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Just got back to the hotel - today was a good day.
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  #61  
Old 01-16-2009, 4:32 AM
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Hell. Let them be sold everywhere!
You used to be able to get them at the hardware store.
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Old 01-16-2009, 4:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
I liked the equal protection argument with the county allowing the Scottish games to bring firearms on site
They really gave no good defense in that as they dont allow the gun show to bring in firearms with the same rules (keeping them secure)
That probably killed their case.
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Old 01-16-2009, 6:50 AM
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A dumb question...with all the hubub about not wanting to "sell" the gun on public property. Are these gun shows 11 days or longer? With relatively few exceptions, when you give a merchant money at a gun at a gun show for a weapon, you aren't going to take possession of said weapon until at least 10 24 hour periods later, which unless the gun show is 11 days or longer, means the gun wouldn't ever be possessed on county property. Did anyone point that out to the boy genius on the anti's side?
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Old 01-16-2009, 7:28 AM
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Wow, so bummed I missed it but happy to hear the details.
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Old 01-16-2009, 8:03 AM
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A dumb question...with all the hubub about not wanting to "sell" the gun on public property. Are these gun shows 11 days or longer? With relatively few exceptions, when you give a merchant money at a gun at a gun show for a weapon, you aren't going to take possession of said weapon until at least 10 24 hour periods later, which unless the gun show is 11 days or longer, means the gun wouldn't ever be possessed on county property. Did anyone point that out to the boy genius on the anti's side?
That actually isn't helpful to our argument - because if you can't actually take possession, why is the item really needed there (or at least that is what the other side would have argued)?
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  #66  
Old 01-16-2009, 8:09 AM
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While I couldn't make it in person, I enjoyed listening to the audio recording. I don't understand a lot of the legal details that were brought up well enough to form a strong opinion about whether the court will choose to address the incorporation issue, and how it'll rule if it does.

The county seemed to make a reasonable argument against the due process claim, in that (they claim) the Scottish Games folks confine firearm possession to designated participants. However, I think they shot their own public safety argument in the foot with the unfortunate (for them!) suggestion about having gun show participants wander off the property to fondle the guns. If I were judging this, and even if I bought into the bogus assertion that having guns at a gun show makes it dangerous, I think I'd consider the county's stance to have a detrimental effect on public safety by encouraging the gun show to operate such that the public wanders out to the surrounding community to inspect guns and conduct transactions, rather than doing so in the controlled and monitored gun show facility.

I didn't get the impression that the judge who asked about the right to keep and bear arms implying a right to buy them was very satisfied with the county's response. If the judges decide that the case warrants examination of incorporation and/or Second Amendment issues, I think that the county's assertion that there is no right to buy firearms will not help their cause.

It seemed to me that the judges grilled Kilmer pretty hard, but he held up well. I did not get the impression that they were particularly biased for or against his argument; it just seemed like they were making him do his homework and support his claims.

Well, I sure hope that they decide to rule on the incorporation issue, and that they determine that the Second Amendment applies to the states! I also hope that they rule to allow the Nordykes to hold their gun show on county property. If I understand this stuff correctly, they might rule against the Nordykes in this case yet still incorporate the Second Amendment, or they might rule for the Nordykes while ruling against incorporation (or not ruling on incorporation at all).

I wonder whether the aftermath of this case might help in some way to return the Great Western show to Pomona? I miss that huge show.
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Old 01-16-2009, 8:39 AM
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That actually isn't helpful to our argument - because if you can't actually take possession, why is the item really needed there (or at least that is what the other side would have argued)?
Um, an 'informed consumer' should have the right to inspect actual items he's buying before proferring funds for safety, quality/appearance (i.e, poss. collectability) and ergonomics . I can't see how forcing someone to buy an object - other than perhaps canned cling peachers or beans or tomato sauce - without inspection is rational consumer behavior. (And yes, I do inspect a can of tomato sauce to check for bulged lid in case of botulism).

[Mailorder sales of a product do avoid some of this but most mailorder houses (Amazon) etc have very good return policies. Most guns cannot, by contrast, be returned as new and an immediate replacement is not allowed (new DROS, new serial# etc.)]
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Old 01-16-2009, 9:01 AM
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I don't know if anyone shares my opinion, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sent it back to the lower court so that the complaints can be amended and it all be argued again.

This is the 9th circuit, they may just sidestep...
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Old 01-16-2009, 9:12 AM
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A dumb question...with all the hubub about not wanting to "sell" the gun on public property. Are these gun shows 11 days or longer? With relatively few exceptions, when you give a merchant money at a gun at a gun show for a weapon, you aren't going to take possession of said weapon until at least 10 24 hour periods later, which unless the gun show is 11 days or longer, means the gun wouldn't ever be possessed on county property. Did anyone point that out to the boy genius on the anti's side?
I wish I had thought of it
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Old 01-16-2009, 9:27 AM
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They were very outgunned
I appreciate your pun, but seriously the opposition was out-classed. My impression is that they were so encumbered by dogma that it significantly hindered their defense. At one point the Alameda Counsel was at a loss for words, trapped in a conflict between where the Judge's questions were leading and where his "theology" dictated he must go. "Deer in the headlights" comes to mind.

Our side did many things very well; one of those things was what I'll call the parry. Don would rarely make a direct dispute to the Judge's assertions, but instead redirected them to where he wanted them to go.

A fascinating experience, followed by a fine dinner with good company.
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Old 01-16-2009, 9:33 AM
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You used to be able to get them at the hardware store.
And Sears and many other department stores. I purchased one of my first rifles at a Fedco (membership dept. store) in San Diego (Actually my father purchased it, he just let me pay for it!) I guess it could have been a "straw purchase" by todays standards. Back then it was just a "rite of passage."
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Old 01-16-2009, 9:38 AM
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At one point the Alameda Counsel was at a loss for words, trapped in a conflict between where the Judge's questions were leading and where his "theology" dictated he must go. "Deer in the headlights" comes to mind.

.
That made me smile from ear to ear. The look on his face must have been priceless. I was wondering if he was just going to give up at that point.
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Soon it will be clearly immoral to routinely violate the bill of rights like the California courts so enjoy today.

-Gene
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  #73  
Old 01-16-2009, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Um, an 'informed consumer' should have the right to inspect actual items he's buying before proferring funds for safety, quality/appearance (i.e, poss. collectability) and ergonomics . I can't see how forcing someone to buy an object - other than perhaps canned cling peachers or beans or tomato sauce - without inspection is rational consumer behavior. (And yes, I do inspect a can of tomato sauce to check for bulged lid in case of botulism).

[Mailorder sales of a product do avoid some of this but most mailorder houses (Amazon) etc have very good return policies. Most guns cannot, by contrast, be returned as new and an immediate replacement is not allowed (new DROS, new serial# etc.)]
Not to mention it also cuts down on the marketing potential to the seller. The whole purpose of a gun show is to give the seller access to thousands of passer-by customers until a gun is sold. Under the countys proposal, if the seller took a payment/deposit on a gun, he would (should) no longer offer it for sale. If after the gun show the interested party didn't like it, which is quite likely, the seller would have to wait until the next day or next gun show to advertise it again. What took a total of a few minutes and occured dozens, if not hundreds of times in one day during a normal gun show, has been reduced to occuring only one time and lasting possibly the entire day.

Also, dozens of vans full of weapons parked across the street from the fairgrounds (off county property) would make a juicy target for thieves.
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  #74  
Old 01-16-2009, 10:48 AM
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It was a very good experience, very glad I went.
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fairfaxjim View Post
And Sears and many other department stores. I purchased one of my first rifles at a Fedco (membership dept. store) in San Diego (Actually my father purchased it, he just let me pay for it!) I guess it could have been a "straw purchase" by todays standards. Back then it was just a "rite of passage."
Ha, I remember my parents were members of Fedco, just not what was in it. Old, but not old enough.
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:21 AM
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It was nice to get to meet so many of you. Alas I'm so bad with names I'm already having a hard time reconnecting who I met with the CalGuns aliases here. Now if everyone would just put mugshots in their avatars I'd be good!
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:23 AM
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It was nice to get to meet so many of you. Alas I'm so bad with names I'm already having a hard time reconnecting who I met with the CalGuns aliases here. Now if everyone would just put mugshots in their avatars I'd be good!
Done
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:24 AM
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Now if everyone would just put mugshots in their avatars I'd be good!
I wasn't present at the argument or dinner, but I do look just like my avatar...
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by fairfaxjim View Post
. I purchased one of my first rifles at a Fedco (membership dept. store) "
Mmmm, Fedco Pizza
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:02 PM
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40 years ago, the fates of the gun owners of the western coast states were tied together by events in Sacramento, CA in 1967.

I live in Washington State, I chose to attend this gather due to multiple factors.

1) 9th Circuit Court of Appeals encompasses Washington and Oregon, as well as my birth state of Arizona. What happens in California effects us up here.

2) Quite frankly, the Calguns folks are smart, sure of themselves, and have damned good plans.

3) Being able to sit down during the in between of the hearing and dinner, and then the after dinner conversation is worth more than the plane ticket down.

4) The two Dons are awesome, as well as Bruce Colodny.

5) I think I was the only one there from out of state at the dinner.

I am currently typing on the CalTrain to San Francisco, flying back to Seattle 9:30PM flight today. I will be in San Fran, anyone else interested in meeting?
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