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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-16-2008, 9:31 PM
Post 88 Post 88 is offline
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Red face M1A EBR - pistol grip behind the action!

The law: the pistol grip "protrudes conspicuously beneath the action" but the pistol grip of the M1A EBR is "behind" the action(Please surf the net to see for yourself.) semilar to a M-1919. So, we might legally have a M1A EBR here in CA like the LEO do.

Just my 2 penny thought.

English is my second language. Please don't flame me.
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2008, 9:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Post 88 View Post
The law: the pistol grip "protrudes conspicuously beneath the action" but the pistol grip of the M1A EBR is "behind" the action(Please surf the net to see for yourself.) semilar to a M-1919. So, we might legally have a M1A EBR here in CA like the LEO do.

Just my 2 penny thought.

English is my second language. Please don't flame me.
Behind and below is still below.
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  #3  
Old 12-16-2008, 9:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Post 88 View Post
The law: the pistol grip "protrudes conspicuously beneath the action" but the pistol grip of the M1A EBR is "behind" the action(Please surf the net to see for yourself.) semilar to a M-1919. So, we might legally have a M1A EBR here in CA like the LEO do.

Just my 2 penny thought.

English is my second language. Please don't flame me.
You mean, this rifle?

http://bastardsinc.blogs.com/bastard...nternatio.html

No, that's a pistol grip under CA law. It's not at all like the M1919's grip.

On the M1919, the pistol grip is on the back of the receiver, above the bottom of the receiver (not below it like on the M1A EBR), and the trigger is down at the bottom of the receiver. You pull the trigger upwards, not backwards. Aside from being shaped similarly to the pistol grip on a revolver, it's really not like any pistol grip you're likely to have held or seen on any modern rifle.

If I am not mistaken, the CA definition of a pistol grip has to do with where the web between the thumb and first finger ends up when holding the gun, with respect to the top of the trigger. I don't have the actual description handy at the moment, nor do I have the explanatory drawings handy at the moment, but somebody (possibly me) may post them in this thread later. I don't recall whether the definition is codified in the law, or just something published by DOJ to clarify what they consider to be a pistol grip.

For now, let it suffice to say that the M1A EBR has a pistol grip under CA law, and the M1919's non-pistol-grip is different in a significant way that may not be obvious if you haven't handled one before, and/or have not read the CA definition of a pistol grip.
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Old 12-16-2008, 9:56 PM
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In California there is a magical line that is parallel to the bottom of the receiver and stretches to infinity in either direction.

If there is a pistol grip attached to the same firearm, ANYWHERE below that line, then it is a pistol grip "that protrudes conspicuously beneath" the action of the firearm, becoming a feature that may or may not make that firearm an AW.

In the case of the M1A EBR, that would make it an AW unless the mag was fixed.
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  #5  
Old 12-16-2008, 9:59 PM
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The only legal definition of 'pistol grip...' is the following:
11 CCR 5469 (d): "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously
beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows
for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand
(between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below
the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.
That DOJ approval letter of the M1919 w/pistol grip may well be a bit nebulous: the writers may have thought their allowance of the 1919 was a unique, nongeneralizeable case, they could spuriously 'pass' the grip, and that this would mask the "not-a-rifle" situation - the latter of which makes the pistol grip consideration irrelevant wherever it protruded.
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  #6  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:00 PM
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Ok, here's the definition of a pistol grip in CA:

http://www.monstermangrip.com/upload...p_Diagrams.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by The PDF linked to above
To implement recent assault weapon legislation, the Department of Justice has proposed regulations to define assault weapon characteristics. Under the proposed regulations, the proposed definition for "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means "a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."
Here's a picture of the grip on an M1919A4:



Notice how the web between the thumb and index finger is way up above the exposed portion of the trigger, so this does not meet the definition of a pistol grip under CA law, even if an M1919A6 shoulder stock is attached.

Not that it matters, but also note that you pull the trigger upwards, not backwards. Shooting an M1919A4 is an unusual experience.

It's not the fact that the M1919's grip is behind the action that makes it OK. It's because the grip is up above the trigger that makes it OK.

P.S.: I'm not really that pale. It's just a flash photo taken with a cheap camera from very close. Honest!

Edited to add: As Bill mentioned, the M1919A4 is arguably not a rifle anyway. It may or may not even be considered a rifle with a shoulder stock attached, since it would be pretty difficult to hold it off-hand like a rifle in normal use, and it was still intended to be fired on a bipod, tripod or pintle by design. Still, this description of the M1919's NON-pistol grip should make it clear that the M1A EBR's grip is not like the M1919's grip in the way that would matter under CA law.
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Last edited by 383green; 12-16-2008 at 10:04 PM.. Reason: Further clarification
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Old 12-16-2008, 10:05 PM
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This thing? It sure is ugly, that's all I can say.
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Old 12-16-2008, 10:10 PM
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It sure is ugly, that's all I can say.
You don't even need to fire it... it'll scare the zombies away!
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Old 12-16-2008, 10:16 PM
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This thing? It sure is ugly, that's all I can say.
Absolute travesty bastardizing the beautiful lines of a fine battle rifle like that.....
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  #10  
Old 12-17-2008, 7:49 AM
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What about the JAE-100 Stocks:

http://www.jallenenterprises.com/productsmain.htm

Do these require a pinned 10 rounder? The angle of the grip isn't *that* dissimilar to the factory one. I wouldn't want to be the test case for the legality though.
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Old 12-17-2008, 8:04 AM
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Those are fine
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2008, 8:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
The angle of the grip isn't *that* dissimilar to the factory one. I wouldn't want to be the test case for the legality though.
Even though the angle of the grip looks a bit pistol-like, those stocks place the web between the thumb and index finger up above the height of the trigger. That makes them not pistol grips, so pinning the magazine wouldn't be necessary as long as the gun doesn't have any of the other restricted features (such as a flash suppressor).

Note that if the rifle has a flash suppressor, the magazine will need to be a pinned one holding no more than 10 rounds. If you want a flash suppressor on it, and thus need to pin the magazine, I figure that you might as well put a few pistol grips on while you're at it.

I'm using the term "pinned" generically, to indicate that the magazine is locked in and requires a tool to remove. A bullet-button-like modification would also work, but I don't know if anybody has marketed such a modification for the M1A platform yet.
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Old 12-17-2008, 11:23 AM
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Wow! Thanks for all the information.

Too bad I can't own that EBR. The first EBR I saw is belong to a police officer in Concord. It is so cool!
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Old 12-17-2008, 11:30 AM
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Post 88,
Вы русски?
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  #15  
Old 12-17-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Post 88 View Post
Too bad I can't own that EBR. The first EBR I saw is belong to a police officer in Concord. It is so cool!
Why couldn't you own it? Pistol grips are only restricted if the rifle has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. If the rifle is modified such that:

1) A tool is required to remove the magazine.

and

2) NEVER install a magazine holding more than 10 rounds.

then you can put pistol grips and flash hiders all over it. Now, I don't know if there are already bullet-button-like products for the M1A on the market, but if not, then some enterprising individual can undoubtedly design and make one. You could home-brew one, even.

I have never fired an M1A or even handled one recently, but if I recall correctly, it's specifically designed to allow loading through the action with a stripper clip. It seems to me that this feature lends itself well to locking the magazine in place, since you could use a simpler method than a bullet-buttonlike device, and then simply leave the magazine in place all of the time, loading through the action. Maybe something as simple as a setscrew installed through the magazine catch to keep it from being depressed would do the trick.

So, I don't see any particular reason why one of those EBRs couldn't be brought into CA and legally owned and used here, as long as the magazine is non-detachable and holds no more than 10 rounds.
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