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  #1  
Old 09-13-2017, 1:33 PM
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Default *final update post #61: Quick Outting with my Springfield Professional

I posted elsewhere on here that I recently picked up a brand new SA 1911 Professional. I finally made time to hit the range with it yesterday.





Fit and finish are perfect and it ran 100 of my personal plated 230gn RN (with 5gn of N320) reloads like a sewing machine.



Here's my only dilemma: it shoots low and left for me! You can see my groupings here. The green dot was where I was aiming for each group of 7 rounds. All shots were 7yds off hand.





Now, I'm an NRA pistol instructor and my first thought for ANYONE who shoots low and left is flinching. And pistol sights are never off. It's always operator error. But to flinch 100 rounds into 13 groups low and left? I wanted to have someone else give it a whirl to confirm it's not operator error, but everyone else's pistol targets at 7yds looked like buckshot. So I was out of luck. To prove my point, here's my first ever mag with my 10mm G20sf. No flinching. And I shot my TRP like I did my G20SF. I'm not new to 1911's.





Now I know my groups could have been tighter with the 1911, but that's not my issue (I was on 4 cups of coffee and an empty stomach, leave me alone). To hit where I was hitting, my point of aim was literally halfway down the sightpost. So I need the ever trusty CG forum to tell me that I'm crazy and it's operator error, or the sights are actually off. I sent SA an email last night but they haven't yet responded.



What do you all think?

Last edited by EMR; 09-13-2017 at 1:44 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-13-2017, 1:39 PM
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My guess is rear sight might be shifted slightly, and you may have a different height front sight than what you are used to.. may need a 12 o'clock hold
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Old 09-13-2017, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldarshay View Post
My guess is rear sight might be shifted slightly, and you may have a different height front sight than what you are used to.. may need a 12 o'clock hold


A 12oclock hold would put my groups even lower. To get the groups I got, my point of aim was halfway down the front sight post.


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Old 09-13-2017, 1:48 PM
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are you talking about #3



Your front sight is too tall for how the gun is configured then.
And the "left" thing, if you are not flinching, could be that the rear needs to move slightly, or the front... But, that is a long trigger on the Pro, do your other 1911s have long triggers?
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Old 09-13-2017, 1:54 PM
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Default Quick Outting with my Springfield Professional

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Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
are you talking about #3







Your front sight is too tall for how the gun is configured then.

And the "left" thing, if you are not flinching, could be that the rear needs to move slightly, or the front... But, that is a long trigger on the Pro, do your other 1911s have long triggers?


#3 was what I was using. Though I'm used to #2. It's funny that you mention the trigger is long. I honestly didn't even notice. I've owned (all Springers) a Loaded, 9mm, MC Operator and a TRP. I tried to get away from SA and go WC or Les Baer, but I keep getting sucked in and ended up with this Pro


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Old 09-13-2017, 1:57 PM
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Is the Springfield Pro sights set up for 25 yards or 7 yards? I am sure there will be some difference depending on the distance that you shoot. Kind of sounds like you are not satisfied with the performance. I would feel the same.
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Old 09-13-2017, 1:59 PM
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Default Quick Outting with my Springfield Professional

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Originally Posted by Litespeeds View Post
Is the Springfield Pro sights set up for 25 yards or 7 yards? I am sure there will be some difference depending on the distance that you shoot. Kind of sounds like you are not satisfied with the performance. I would feel the same.


In my email to SA, I asked them where it's sighted in at. If this is just a function of that, then I can drift the sight for windage and accept the elevation and be a happy camper. But I haven't heard from them yet....


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Last edited by EMR; 09-13-2017 at 2:03 PM..
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Old 09-13-2017, 2:08 PM
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IIRC, sight #3 is 12 o'clock hold. May be wrong, but either way that is the hold I was referring to. But if you already tried that, then my assumption is the front sight post is too tall as MV stated above
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Old 09-13-2017, 2:09 PM
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When in doubt, shoot from a rest. That will minimize movement including flinching. You'll get a good idea about how well the sights are aligned horizontally. As for vertical alignment, it will depend on what sight picture you're using.

Also, 7 yards is not a good distance to sight in a gun. Point blank range for practically all standard handguns is in excess of 50 yards (give or take, it's a decent ballpark), so you'll do much better by sighting at the farthest distance you can shoot reliably.

I sighted in two competition guns (USPSA, Limited) just yesterday, one that came back from a trigger job and another that had the rear sight work itself loose (red Loctite fixed that). I did initial sighting at 15 yards, then moved to just above 25 yards for fine tuning. It's amazing how much better you can determine where the gun shoots at distance.

(I was shooting from a rest to get the sights dialed in, then did free hand verification. The idea is to adjust the sights, not to work on your technique.)
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  #10  
Old 09-13-2017, 2:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldarshay View Post
IIRC, sight #3 is 12 o'clock hold. May be wrong, but either way that is the hold I was referring to. But if you already tried that, then my assumption is the front sight post is too tall as MV stated above


Whops, if you're right then I apologize.


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  #11  
Old 09-13-2017, 2:12 PM
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Where do you shoot? Evan's or elsewhere? The target holder looks familiar...

I am no instructor, but I guarantee I won't shoot buck shots...
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Old 09-13-2017, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
When in doubt, shoot from a rest. That will minimize movement including flinching. You'll get a good idea about how well the sights are aligned horizontally. As for vertical alignment, it will depend on what sight picture you're using.

Also, 7 yards is not a good distance to sight in a gun. Point blank range for practically all standard handguns is in excess of 50 yards (give or take, it's a decent ballpark), so you'll do much better by sighting at the farthest distance you can shoot reliably.

I sighted in two competition guns (USPSA, Limited) just yesterday, one that came back from a trigger job and another that had the rear sight work itself loose (red Loctite fixed that). I did initial sighting at 15 yards, then moved to just above 25 yards for fine tuning. It's amazing how much better you can determine where the gun shoots at distance.

(I was shooting from a rest to get the sights dialed in, then did free hand verification. The idea is to adjust the sights, not to work on your technique.)
I wish I had access to a rest. That would be fantastic.

Unfortunately, at this indoor range, 7 yards is the farthest I can shoot reliably. 10 & 15 yards are between the lights and is really dark and my astigmatism makes it hard to see at 50ft at the well lit back of the range.
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  #13  
Old 09-13-2017, 2:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
Where do you shoot? Evan's or elsewhere? The target holder looks familiar...

I am no instructor, but I guarantee I won't shoot buck shots...


Yup! Evans! I can always use another shooting buddy


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Old 09-13-2017, 2:26 PM
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Sight 3 is a combat hold. The dot covers the bullseye. That is the way a lot of fighting guns are set up, *if* they have dots on the sights.

And most custom 1911s are set up for more like 25yds, so I would not be too freaked out over the high/low until you shot it some more at various distances

Anyhow, for the left/right drift I would try shooting off a bench with a sandbag rest to verify if it is you getting used to the gun, or if the rear sight really needs to be drifted. I wouldn't do anything with the sights until I shot off a rest though.
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  #15  
Old 09-13-2017, 2:55 PM
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FWIW I shoot nearly every new gun I get low/left. To the point where I generally ignore it until I've shot a few boxes through it. I can't explain it, because if you hand me virtually any gun from my safe right now I won't shoot low/left with it.

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Anyhow, for the left/right drift I would try shooting off a bench with a sandbag rest to verify if it is you getting used to the gun, or if the rear sight really needs to be drifted. I wouldn't do anything with the sights until I shot off a rest though.
Agree 100%.
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  #16  
Old 09-13-2017, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Yup! Evans! I can always use another shooting buddy


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When are you heading there to try again? I do need to bring some .45s out of the stable... Been shooting more 9mm lately.
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  #17  
Old 09-13-2017, 3:07 PM
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Try it at 25 yards with the "combat hold" (the front sight covering the target).

My PRO was POI/POA at 25 yards. At 10 yards it was a little bit low with a "combat hold".
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Old 09-13-2017, 3:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
When are you heading there to try again? I do need to bring some .45s out of the stable... Been shooting more 9mm lately.
I see how it is Pklin...
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  #19  
Old 09-13-2017, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Sight 3 is a combat hold. The dot covers the bullseye. That is the way a lot of fighting guns are set up, *if* they have dots on the sights.
I stand corrected... knew I may have been wrong!
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Old 09-13-2017, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
When are you heading there to try again? I do need to bring some .45s out of the stable... Been shooting more 9mm lately.


So since the overall consensus here is that I need to take it out to 25 yds and try again, I think I'll hit up FT3 next. I may try next Monday. Unfortunately, I've got a pretty full schedule.


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  #21  
Old 09-13-2017, 3:59 PM
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Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll try it at 25 yards. If I had a rest I'd definitely use it but after dropping the cash for the Pro, the rest will have to wait a while. A looong while


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Old 09-13-2017, 4:26 PM
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she looks pretty sweet -- & accurate!
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Old 09-13-2017, 6:14 PM
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You don't need any fancy rest to shoot rested.

Ground the mag base on a table at the minimum. Got a sand bag? Block of wood? Try finding some easy to carry items for stabilizing at your home. Test them there.

I would discourage making any assumptions on an issue with your sights until you first shoot the handgun rested.

The 3 sights pictures posted can each be appropriate for the distance you are shooting. For the shooting and distances I will shoot from I start with the far right and work to the left as distance increase.

Rarely do I see an issue with the stock set up of sights. Typically if the rear is off you can visually see it shifted.
It is possible to consistently shoot to the same point with a different handgun.
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Old 09-13-2017, 6:33 PM
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Default Quick Outting with my Springfield Professional

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Yup! Evans! I can always use another shooting buddy


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I am from OC and don't mind test drive your Pro. Here are my resumes





Last edited by tbc; 09-13-2017 at 6:40 PM..
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Old 09-13-2017, 6:47 PM
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That is a gorgeous gun! The Pro is my Holy Grail gun.

I would say run a few more boxes and see if you get along any better with the gun. It may just be a 'get to know you' time. Or, the trigger just may be a bit different for you. I've had that on other 1911's. We all get used to what we know. Besides, who needs an excuse to run a few hundred rounds out of a Pro? LOL!

If you're still having issues, send it back to SA, they'll take good care of you and the gun. Request a test target.

Happy shooting and be safe!
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Old 09-13-2017, 6:55 PM
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Kind of sucks that you can shoot tighter and more accurate groups with your Glock vs a $3,500+ SA Pro. I'm beginning to think that spending more money on a gun doesn't mean it will shoot better. In my case, I can't shoot my Wilson Combat CQB Elite any more accurately than my Kimber Tactical Custom II. But I can sure shoot my CGW CZ 97B Copperhead better than all my other .45's.
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Old 09-13-2017, 7:03 PM
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hey lite you know it's the Indian not the arrow. our in this case bow.

great shooting op and very nice piece.
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Old 09-13-2017, 7:03 PM
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You guys are reallll good shots...
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  #29  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litespeeds View Post
Kind of sucks that you can shoot tighter and more accurate groups with your Glock vs a $3,500+ SA Pro. I'm beginning to think that spending more money on a gun doesn't mean it will shoot better. In my case, I can't shoot my Wilson Combat CQB Elite any more accurately than my Kimber Tactical Custom II. But I can sure shoot my CGW CZ 97B Copperhead better than all my other .45's.
LOL honestly I was thinking the same thing. I can put 9mm inside of a quarter with my P226 at the same distance. But at least the Pro is still a sexy beast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
That is a gorgeous gun! The Pro is my Holy Grail gun.

I would say run a few more boxes and see if you get along any better with the gun. It may just be a 'get to know you' time. Or, the trigger just may be a bit different for you. I've had that on other 1911's. We all get used to what we know. Besides, who needs an excuse to run a few hundred rounds out of a Pro? LOL!

If you're still having issues, send it back to SA, they'll take good care of you and the gun. Request a test target.

Happy shooting and be safe!
This is what I plan to do. Just keep throwing ammo at it and seeing if anything changes.

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Originally Posted by tbc View Post
I am from OC and don't mind test drive your Pro. Here are my resumes
LOL um, you're hired! You ever come to Evans in Orange?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt P View Post
You don't need any fancy rest to shoot rested.

Ground the mag base on a table at the minimum. Got a sand bag? Block of wood? Try finding some easy to carry items for stabilizing at your home. Test them there.

I would discourage making any assumptions on an issue with your sights until you first shoot the handgun rested.

The 3 sights pictures posted can each be appropriate for the distance you are shooting. For the shooting and distances I will shoot from I start with the far right and work to the left as distance increase.

Rarely do I see an issue with the stock set up of sights. Typically if the rear is off you can visually see it shifted.
It is possible to consistently shoot to the same point with a different handgun.
Perhaps I'll try the sandbag idea. It's definitely better than nothing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by osis32 View Post
hey lite you know it's the Indian not the arrow. our in this case bow.

great shooting op and very nice piece.
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Originally Posted by deephouse View Post
You guys are reallll good shots...
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Originally Posted by eric91 View Post
she looks pretty sweet -- & accurate!
Thanks guys!
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:35 PM
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I see how it is Pklin...

Sorry MV, this range is 20 minutes from me... Was Angeles hit by the recent fire at all?
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:32 AM
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Default Quick Outting with my Springfield Professional

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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
.







LOL um, you're hired! You ever come to Evans in Orange?





Thanks guys!


No, I have not been to Evan. We should meet some time
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Old 09-14-2017, 1:11 PM
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Would love to join up with you guys locally for a shoot. Need to fix some bad shooting habits and need another pair of trained eyes...

Mosin, I'll hit you up for sure for a shoot up in your neck of the woods, after I practice some more.
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Old 09-14-2017, 1:48 PM
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The way to end this anathema is to aim about 1" higher....and just a smidge to the right





Beautiful gun!
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Old 09-14-2017, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbc View Post
I am from OC and don't mind test drive your Pro. Here are my resumes




Man that LB looks nice, what holster do you use to make it look worn around the sharp edges of the gun?
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Old 09-14-2017, 2:55 PM
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I own and ran a lot of Springfield Pros.
This is a rare problem and most of these pistols are test fired and fitted with the proper impact point at 25yrds - point of aim correlates to point of impact.

Couple of things you can do:

1) Move the target as far back to 25yrds as possible and shoot for a group benched or supported. You may have to drift for windage.

2) Have a good shooter shoot this pistol and get an independent opinion.

3) I've discussed this with Dave Williams in-person. He says that occasionally, there is some slight slide warpage and when the slide is milled at a prescribed spot, the sights don't always correspond with the true axis. Sometimes, there is also warpage in the barrel.

4) I've sent by my Pro's to Springfield Custom shop - given them my target at prescribed distance, identified what brand of ammo I shoot (Remington Golden Saber) - and request a different impact point. The Custom Shop 'blends' a new front/rear sight and the impact is readjusted.

5) If you are in Fresno area, I'd be happy to shoot your Pro for you and render an opinion for you.

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Old 09-14-2017, 4:25 PM
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Default Quick Outting with my Springfield Professional

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Man that LB looks nice, what holster do you use to make it look worn around the sharp edges of the gun?


Thanks TomT. We do not holster it. The previous owner of this LB was my brother. He bought it in a like new condition. The faded bluing was probably a result of using M-Pro 7 cleaner during the course of his ownership.
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Old 09-14-2017, 4:46 PM
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Thanks TomT. We do not holster it. The previous owner of this LB was my brother. He bought it in a like new condition. The faded bluing was probably a result of using M-Pro 7 cleaner during the course of his ownership.
Oh okay ty. I see a les baer in my future just no in this state due to roster.
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Old 09-14-2017, 5:35 PM
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The tightness of the groups indicate NO flinching; they indicate someone who knows what they're doing. The sights are off. And, if they're off that much at 7 yards, they're way off at 15 & 25 yards since the error is magnified as the range increases.

I'll never understand why a manufacturer puts fancy-sounding names like "Professional" on a gun & charges a higher price but doesn't bother to test their guns to verify POA/POI.

I had a similar issue with a pricey Wilson CQB that shot great groups but 3" high at 25 feet. I shipped the gun to Wilson along with some test targets. To their credit, they contacted me & explained that the wrong front sight was installed on the gun. When I got it back, it had a much-taller front sight & it shot perfectly. What was really funny was the test target enclosed with the gun. The tester obviously aimed several inches low & fired a perfect half inch group.
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Old 09-14-2017, 6:42 PM
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I wish I had access to a rest. That would be fantastic.
You just put a sandbag on the table, or even just rest the gun directly on the table. That's what I meant by "bench rest."

Those vise-like handgun rests would be ideal, but few own them. You can do pretty close with just resting the gun on a solid surface. It eliminates majority of movement and problems as long as you have good trigger technique.
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Old 09-14-2017, 6:45 PM
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The tightness of the groups indicate NO flinching; they indicate someone who knows what they're doing.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. Flinching can be pretty consistent and produce decent groups, particularly at close ranges. This is similar to any variety of trigger pull problems that will create groups that are off-center, but are still groups.

Of course, I am not criticizing the OP or implying that he is not shooting properly (I haven't seen him, so I certainly cannot judge), only that he needs to *make sure* it's the sights before adjusting them.
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