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  #1  
Old 08-08-2017, 6:14 PM
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Default Options to avoid registration with semi auto shotguns converted Saiga 12 & Vepr 12's?

im asking about converted Saiga 12's and Vepr 12's with pistol grips and fixed stocks that already have bullet buttons

1) can we just use a gas plug and make it a manual action?

2) fixed mag by plugging the existing bullet button with epoxy glue and reload via top load?

3) fixed mag by welding the bullet button hole and reload via top load?

if we choose one of these options to be outside the assault weapon category since its a fixed mag or manual action shotgun, can we now remove the bullet button and have normal mag releases, have adjustable stock, pistol grip, muzzle brake and vertical foregrip?

any other options on making these a fixed mag?

Last edited by defcon; 08-08-2017 at 6:23 PM..
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  #2  
Old 08-08-2017, 6:19 PM
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You see the thing is there is no law that makes saiga / vepr 12 an "aw" by having a mag lock
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Old 08-08-2017, 6:21 PM
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i had to add a mag lock when i converted my Saiga 12.

it currently has a fixed stock, pistol grip
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  #4  
Old 08-08-2017, 6:23 PM
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You had to have a mag lock to get it in the state, pistol grip or not
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Old 08-08-2017, 6:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevendayweekend View Post
You had to have a mag lock to get it in the state, pistol grip or not
yep. i converted my Saiga 12 6 years ago.
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  #6  
Old 08-08-2017, 6:27 PM
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maybe I don't understand
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  #7  
Old 08-08-2017, 8:32 PM
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1286888


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  #8  
Old 08-08-2017, 8:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevendayweekend View Post
You see the thing is there is no law that makes saiga / vepr 12 an "aw" by having a mag lock
As of 08-01-2017, there are now CA regulations that makes them assault weapons.

The regulations "clarified" the new assault weapons laws to include semi-auto shotguns.

Until they are overturned by the Courts, these new regulations are in effect.
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Old 08-08-2017, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defcon View Post
im asking about converted Saiga 12's and Vepr 12's with pistol grips and fixed stocks that already have bullet buttons

1) can we just use a gas plug and make it a manual action?

2) fixed mag by plugging the existing bullet button with epoxy glue and reload via top load?

3) fixed mag by welding the bullet button hole and reload via top load?

if we choose one of these options to be outside the assault weapon category since its a fixed mag or manual action shotgun, can we now remove the bullet button and have normal mag releases, have adjustable stock, pistol grip, muzzle brake and vertical foregrip?

any other options on making these a fixed mag?
Need to remove the gas piston and plug the gas block, in order for it to be considered a manually operated (straight pull bolt-action) shotgun.

A manually operated shotgun can have a folding/extending stock and a pistol grip and use detachable magazines.
^If the shotgun has a folding stock, the overall length needs to be 26" or greater with the stock folded & non-permanently attached muzzle device removed.

A semi-auto shotgun with a fixed magazine can not have a folding/extending stock and a pistol grip.
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  #10  
Old 08-08-2017, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Need to remove the gas piston and plug the gas block, in order for it to be considered a manually operated (straight pull bolt-action) shotgun.

A manually operated shotgun can have a folding/extending stock and a pistol grip and use detachable magazines.
^If the shotgun has a folding stock, the overall length needs to be 26" or greater with the stock folded & non-permanently attached muzzle device removed.

A semi-auto shotgun with a fixed magazine can not have a folding/extending stock and a pistol grip.
thank you!!!!!!

what do you think is better though?

manual shotgun with mag release or having a fixed mag with no features?
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Old 08-08-2017, 9:46 PM
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defcon, are you asking because you live in FLA and want to sell to someone in CA? Or do you spend time in CA and want to avoid registering a semi auto detachable mag shotgun? (no answer required )

If the latter, might as well register if you bought since 2014, they know what you have anyways. Otherwise, why not go with a Mossberg 500 and Sidewinder Venom 10 rd magazine conversion kit?

If registering, send in note with photos that you are registering under duress, coercion and undue burden to comply with California's statutory "assault weapon" laws that are not within the purview of the Federal National Firearms Act nor the Department of Homeland Security's definition of "personal defense weapon."

Then keep within arm's reach at least ten (10) 10-round 12 ga Vepr mags with 1500+ fps 00 buck, Brenneke Max penetrator 1 3/8 oz 1560 ft/sec steel core slugs or DDuplex Hexolit 32s to thwrart anyone who would try to steal your lawfully acquired property.
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2017, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
defcon, are you asking because you live in FLA and want to sell to someone in CA? Or do you spend time in CA and want to avoid registering a semi auto detachable mag shotgun? (no answer required )

If the latter, might as well register if you bought since 2014, they know what you have anyways. Otherwise, why not go with a Mossberg 500 and Sidewinder Venom 10 rd magazine conversion kit?

If registering, send in note with photos that you are registering under duress, coercion and undue burden to comply with California's statutory "assault weapon" laws that are not within the purview of the Federal National Firearms Act nor the Department of Homeland Security's definition of "personal defense weapon."

Then keep within arm's reach at least ten (10) 10-round 12 ga Vepr mags with 1500+ fps 00 buck, Brenneke Max penetrator 1 3/8 oz 1560 ft/sec steel core slugs or DDuplex Hexolit 32s to thwrart anyone who would try to steal your lawfully acquired property.


id rather avoid registration do something else. i have no plans to sell.

i have a black aces tactical mossberg 500 mag fed

Last edited by defcon; 08-11-2017 at 10:29 AM..
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2017, 7:13 AM
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There's no such thing as a featureless shotgun, so you should have had a BB even before you converted it.

Is there a reasonable way to top load it?
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2017, 8:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
There's no such thing as a featureless shotgun, so you should have had a BB even before you converted it.

Is there a reasonable way to top load it?
yea it came with a BB before conversion.

i dont know. i havent tried top loading a shotgun before

mine has an aftermarket Chaos rail that i need to pop open before the top cover
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:11 AM
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Defcon, you want to have to pop off the dust cover to clear a live 12ga shell that's jammed against the bottom trunnion with the bolt flush against it so you can't engage the safety while the tension from the springs in the magazine further complicate the clusterF?
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
Defcon, you want to have to pop off the dust cover to clear a live 12ga shell that's jammed against the bottom trunnion with the bolt flush against it so you can't engage the safety while the tension from the springs in the magazine further complicate the clusterF?
lol i guess. maybe we should ask the politicians on how to safely remove the jam on a fixed magazine?
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2017, 12:32 PM
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Removing the gas piston and perhaps install a gas plug that is solid wih no holes will make it single shot. Instead of plugging the holes. Then you can keep your original gas plug and piston so if you move out of state, you can convert back to semi.
Also you can remove maglock and install a collapsable stock which would still be pretty handy. Maybe add an oversized charging handle do its quicker to reload.
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2017, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermario View Post
Removing the gas piston and perhaps install a gas plug that is solid wih no holes will make it single shot. Instead of plugging the holes. Then you can keep your original gas plug and piston so if you move out of state, you can convert back to semi.
Also you can remove maglock and install a collapsable stock which would still be pretty handy. Maybe add an oversized charging handle do its quicker to reload.
do you know any companies that sell solid plugs for the Saiga 12?
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:08 AM
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Sorry for being dense but I'm still not quite getting it. Just DROSd the Vepr 12 with the wood thumbhole stock (below). If I plug the hole in the stock, am I considered featureless and good to go (i.e. featureless and thus no registration)? My read from above is that in 2018, that will still not be good enough and I either have to register it nontheless or weld that magazine in place. Is that correct? Thanks for the help. One of these days this will sink in






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  #20  
Old 08-10-2017, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlewpolar View Post
Sorry for being dense but I'm still not quite getting it. Just DROSd the Vepr 12 with the wood thumbhole stock (below). If I plug the hole in the stock, am I considered featureless and good to go (i.e. featureless and thus no registration)? My read from above is that in 2018, that will still not be good enough and I either have to register it nontheless or weld that magazine in place. Is that correct? Thanks for the help. One of these days this will sink in






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It's not letting me edit for some reason. I should note that my Vepr came with a mag lock installed. Thanks


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  #21  
Old 08-10-2017, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defcon View Post
do you know any companies that sell solid plugs for the Saiga 12?
Carolina shooter supply said i can modify one of their plugs to shut off the gas

i have their plugs and asking them how i would modify it
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  #22  
Old 08-10-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rlewpolar View Post
It's not letting me edit for some reason. I should note that my Vepr came with a mag lock installed. Thanks


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why did you take the maglock off?

detachable semi auto shotguns are required to have maglocks on it.
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  #23  
Old 08-10-2017, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defcon View Post
why did you take the maglock off?



detachable semi auto shotguns are required to have maglocks on it.


Sorry for the confusion. This is a stock photo to just show the thumbhole stock. Mine is still at the dealer, waiting to be picked up and has the mag lock installed.


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  #24  
Old 08-10-2017, 3:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlewpolar View Post
Sorry for being dense but I'm still not quite getting it. Just DROSd the Vepr 12 with the wood thumbhole stock (below). If I plug the hole in the stock, am I considered featureless and good to go (i.e. featureless and thus no registration)?
CA assault weapons laws for shotguns are similar to, but different than those for rifles and pistols.

A restricted feature on semi-auto shotguns is the ability to accept detachable magazines. [PC 30515(a)(7)]

Therefore...
If the semi-auto shotgun accepts detachable magazines, then it can not be made featureless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlewpolar View Post
My read from above is that in 2018, that will still not be good enough and I either have to register it nontheless or weld that magazine in place. Is that correct?
As of 08-01-2017, it is no longer legal to transfer a semi-auto shotgun with a "bullet button" style magazine lock.
Since you acquired this after 2016, it is not eligible to register as an assault weapon.

In order to keep it CA legal, it needs to be configured into one of the following:
A. Disassembled parts.
^Kept as disassembled parts and never assembled while in CA. It may be prudent to store/transport the parts in different containers/locations while in CA.
B. Manually operated shotgun.
^Remove the gas piston and plug the gas block. This will make it into a straight pull bolt-action shotgun.
C. Fixed magazine shotgun.
^Permanently affix (weld/epoxy/rivet) a 10 or less round magazine into the firearm's magazine well.
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Last edited by Quiet; 08-10-2017 at 3:56 PM..
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  #25  
Old 08-10-2017, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
CA assault weapons laws for shotguns are similar to, but different than those for rifles and pistols.



A restricted feature on semi-auto shotguns is the ability to accept detachable magazines. [PC 30515(a)(7)]



Therefore...

If the semi-auto shotgun accepts detachable magazines, then it can not be made featureless.


Thanks. Looks like I will have to register it . Not willing to weld that mag in place


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  #26  
Old 08-10-2017, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlewpolar View Post
Thanks. Looks like I will have to register it. Not willing to weld that mag in place
Since you acquired this after 2016, it is not eligible to register as an assault weapon. [PC 30900(b)(1)]
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Old 08-13-2017, 3:11 AM
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I don't think you can top load a Saiga 12. The feed lips prevent loading the mag like an AR mag (pushing straight down). The shells have to be slid into the mag much like pistol mags.

I tried and can't figure out a way to make it work. Maybe I'm missing something?

No idea about Vepr mags as I don't own one.
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  #28  
Old 08-13-2017, 10:11 AM
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I see this often referenced as a way to avoid registration for ak platform shotguns

Remove the gas piston and plug the gas block. This will make it into a straight pull bolt-action shotgun.

Has anyone done this? I've searched all over for a tutorial on how to do this but have come up empty.
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  #29  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echo4alpha View Post
I don't think you can top load a Saiga 12. The feed lips prevent loading the mag like an AR mag (pushing straight down). The shells have to be slid into the mag much like pistol mags.

I tried and can't figure out a way to make it work. Maybe I'm missing something?

No idea about Vepr mags as I don't own one.
hmm i need to pull mine out and try to top load.

i havent shot this thing in awhile

ill also see if i can side load. i doubt it will work
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntingsocal View Post
I see this often referenced as a way to avoid registration for ak platform shotguns

Remove the gas piston and plug the gas block. This will make it into a straight pull bolt-action shotgun.

Has anyone done this? I've searched all over for a tutorial on how to do this but have come up empty.

where are you seeing this referenced? did anyone find a solution?

i dont even know how to plug the gas ports or gas plug.

CSS suggested welding the gas plug. i was wondering if we can just put some nylon pin in the hole on the gas plug.
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Old 08-13-2017, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echo4alpha View Post
I don't think you can top load a Saiga 12. The feed lips prevent loading the mag like an AR mag (pushing straight down). The shells have to be slid into the mag much like pistol mags.

I tried and can't figure out a way to make it work. Maybe I'm missing something?

No idea about Vepr mags as I don't own one.
AFAIK...
Since it's not possible to load the magazine via the ejection port:
1. Check to see if it's unloaded.
2. Remove top cover.
3. Remove bolt carrier group.
4. Load magazine.
5. Install bolt carrier group.
6. Install top cover.
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Old 08-13-2017, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
AFAIK...
Since it's not possible to load the magazine via the ejection port:
1. Check to see if it's unloaded.
2. Remove top cover.
3. Remove bolt carrier group.
4. Load magazine.
5. Install bolt carrier group.
6. Install top cover.
right i was going to remove everything.

can we remove the piston rod from the bolt completely?
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Need to remove the gas piston and plug the gas block, in order for it to be considered a manually operated (straight pull bolt-action) shotgun.

A manually operated shotgun can have a folding/extending stock and a pistol grip and use detachable magazines.
^If the shotgun has a folding stock, the overall length needs to be 26" or greater with the stock folded & non-permanently attached muzzle device removed.

A semi-auto shotgun with a fixed magazine can not have a folding/extending stock and a pistol grip.
@Quiet the flowchart shows that a pistol grip would be acceptable can you clarify why a fixed magazine semi auto shotgun cannot have a pistol grip and a fixed stock?

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  #34  
Old 08-22-2017, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
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@Quiet the flowchart shows that a pistol grip would be acceptable can you clarify why a fixed magazine semi auto shotgun cannot have a pistol grip and a fixed stock?
The flowchart is out-of-date. No ETA on when it will be updated.

The flowchart currently shows...

13. Does the semi-auto shotgun have a folding or telescoping stock?
^No -> Legal
^Yes -> 14. Does the semi-auto shotgun also have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuosly beneth the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical grip?

14. Does the semi-auto shotgun also have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuosly beneth the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical grip?
^No -> Legal
^Yes -> Violates PC 12276.1(a)


This is still correct.
^Update would only change "Violates PC 12276.1(a)" to "Violates PC 30515(a)(6)".


Quick summary:
Semi-auto shotgun with a fixed shoulder stock and a pistol grip = legal
Semi-auto shotgun with a folding/extending shoulder stock and a pistol grip = illegal, assault weapon [PC 30515(a)(6)]
Semi-auto shotgun with a folding/extending shoulder stock and a vertical grip = illegal, assault weapon [PC 30515(a)(6)]
Semi-auto shotgun with a folding/extending shoulder stock and a thumbhole stock = illegal, assault weapon [PC 30515(a)(6)]



Penal Code 30515
(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
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Last edited by Quiet; 08-22-2017 at 5:33 PM..
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  #35  
Old 08-23-2017, 8:16 PM
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Thanks for the response would a grip wrap fix this?

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  #36  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:29 AM
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I've tried making a fixed mag that mimics the fixed mag solutions on the ak. It hasn't turned out very well. I'm using a 10 round sgm magazine. It's always had an issue with binding up the follower. Has anyone tried going the fixed mag route?
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:08 PM
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I've tried making a fixed mag that mimics the fixed mag solutions on the ak. It hasn't turned out very well. I'm using a 10 round sgm magazine. It's always had an issue with binding up the follower. Has anyone tried going the fixed mag route?
what about adding epoxy to the follower to give it more height??
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  #38  
Old 08-24-2017, 12:33 PM
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Fixed magazine is my plan just using the factory five round magazine for now until the 10-round factory magazines become less ridiculously priced

My plan was to epoxy it in place or try to attach wings like the dfm AR magazines so that it can only be pulled out from the top of the receiver

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  #39  
Old 08-24-2017, 1:40 PM
Gilcontr Gilcontr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defcon View Post
what about adding epoxy to the follower to give it more height??

I actually think it's because the guides on the inside of the mag are too shallow? The ribs themselves? I cut a port at the bottom of the mag to load the rounds. On the first time that I compressed the spring, it shot out of the port :/ I then cut the port at the to of the mag directly under the mag well. I then added a coat hanger through the follower that protruded thought the floorplate in order to compress the magspring.Was tricky to load and there was still binding. I'm seriously contemplating getting rid of it and getting a Benelli m4.
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Old 08-24-2017, 2:20 PM
Gilcontr Gilcontr is offline
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Just to clarify, I was trying to do what this company came up with. https://www.google.com/amp/www.thefi...ixed-mags/amp/

Though I must say came up with the idea before actually seeing that someone else did it with the ak... Lol
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