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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-17-2017, 7:31 PM
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Kestryll Kestryll is offline
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Default DoJ Proposed Regs Re: Ammo Vendor Lic.

From CRPA Executive Director Rick Travis:



On Friday, July 14th, the California Department of Justice, Bureau of Firearms (“DOJ”) claims to have released its anticipated proposed regulations for the issuance of ammunition vendor licenses to businesses who sell or transfer ammunition pursuant to Proposition 63. Under the Administrative Procedure Act, a government agency is required to provide notice to those who signed up for “notifications of future rulemaking activities.” But NRA and CRPA attorneys received no notice of the proposed regulations, despite being subscribed to receive emails regarding any and all rulemaking activity from DOJ.

As written, these proposed regulations include new requirements for the issuance of ammunition vendor licenses, restrictions on the display of ammunition in stores, fees for processing private party ammunition sales, and the procedures for the suspension and forfeiture of licenses.

If DOJ’s proposed regulations take effect, those who are not California licensed firearm dealers (or subject to limited exceptions) will be required to pay an annual $198 fee for the privilege of selling ammunition in the state of California. And according to the proposed regulations, the vendor or dealer may charge up to $5 for processing “private party transfers” when the purchaser is present “for immediate delivery.” Dealers and vendors may charge “an additional storage fee” as agreed upon should the purchaser not be immediately present. Remember: under Proposition 63, Californians who purchase ammunition must do so face-to-face and when the ammunition is purchased from outside of California the ammunition must first be sent to an ammunition vendor or California licensed firearm dealer before it can be delivered to the purchaser.

This past June, NRA and CRPA attorneys warned DOJ that failing to publish these regulations in a timely manner could result in delays in the implementation of the provisions of Proposition 63, which as of January 1, 2018, require all ammunition sales in California to be conducted though a California licensed firearm dealer or ammunition vendor. Under Proposition 63, DOJ was required to implement these regulations by July 1, 2017, but is only just now introducing the proposal.

Now, we need your help to make sure DOJ doesn’t overstep its authority as it has done many times this year already. As required under California law, DOJ will be holding a public hearing and public comment period for its proposed regulations. A public hearing has been scheduled from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. on Monday, August 28, 2017, at the Resources Building Auditorium, located at 1416 9th Street, Sacramento, California 95814. If past experience tells us anything, expect nothing more than a room with a tape recorder.

Nevertheless, we encourage all of our members who are able to attend the public hearing to make their voices heard during the regulatory process, and to submit written comments to ensure that they are included in the record. And if you are unable to present your comments in person, you can submit them directly to the following person:

Jeff Amador
Department of Justice
P.O. Box 160487
Sacramento, CA 95816-0487
Email: regulations@doj.ca.gov
Fax: (916) 227-1068

In the meantime, NRA and CRPA attorneys will continue to monitor the situation as it develops, and will be providing members with more details shortly. So make sure you are subscribed to NRA and CRPA email alerts to stay informed on this and other important Second Amendment issues here in California.


Thank you


Rick Travis

Executive Director
California Rifle and Pistol Association
271 Imperial Highway, Suite 620
Fullerton, California 92835

Phone: (714) 992-2772
Fax: (714) 992-2996
Email: rtravis@crpa.org
Web: www.crpa.org
Twitter: @RickRtravis
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Old 07-17-2017, 7:54 PM
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Well that sucks

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Old 07-17-2017, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
But NRA and CRPA attorneys received no notice of the proposed regulations, despite being subscribed to receive emails regarding any and all rulemaking activity from DOJ.
They don't recognize the peasantry.
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Old 07-17-2017, 8:17 PM
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So $200 bucks a year to buy at whole sale prices and be able to write off all my firearm related purchases on my taxes? Plus qualify for a CCW as now doing business with firearms is "good cause" . I'm not so sure this is going to work out well for them.
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Old 07-17-2017, 8:46 PM
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Old 07-17-2017, 8:53 PM
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So $200 bucks a year to buy at whole sale prices and be able to write off all my firearm related purchases on my taxes? Plus qualify for a CCW as now doing business with firearms is "good cause" . I'm not so sure this is going to work out well for them.


1) you've never dealt with writing off business expenses I guess. The IRS doesn't take kindly to massive write-offs if you're not actually engaged in the business. That's called a hobby. Any accountant worth anything will immediately nix that idea.

2) you apparently forgot which state you live in. This is kalifornia. A vendor license is for vendors. If you aren't a vendor, well, this is kalifornia. Remember who they are and what they are and what they will happily do to do.

3) good cause means you are politically well connected. It's not "good cause" it's "good, 'cause" as in you're "good, 'cause" you know the right the right people and contributed enough to the right people's campaigns.

It will work out well for them because it will work out well for them. You're not thinking like a normal person. Normal people, the kind that happily enjoy being ruled, will just pay the fees and such, and the price increases will curtail their shooting. And there'll be less shooting and fewer gun owners.

You think they give two craps about real enthusiasts, other than to wage constant war against us, and do so with great joy and zeal? Nah, they're playing the long game. There's around 6 million gun owners in kalifornia. Probably 15% of us are diehard enthusiasts. Now 1 million sounds like a lot until you realize that's 2.5% of the state population. Consider the % that voted FOR prop 63.

Do the math.
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Old 07-17-2017, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
1) you've never dealt with writing off business expenses I guess. The IRS doesn't take kindly to massive write-offs if you're not actually engaged in the business. That's called a hobby. Any accountant worth anything will immediately nix that idea.

2) you apparently forgot which state you live in. This is kalifornia. A vendor license is for vendors. If you aren't a vendor, well, this is kalifornia. Remember who they are and what they are and what they will happily do to do.

3) good cause means you are politically well connected. It's not "good cause" it's "good, 'cause" as in you're "good, 'cause" you know the right the right people and contributed enough to the right people's campaigns.

It will work out well for them because it will work out well for them. You're not thinking like a normal person. Normal people, the kind that happily enjoy being ruled, will just pay the fees and such, and the price increases will curtail their shooting. And there'll be less shooting and fewer gun owners.

You think they give two craps about real enthusiasts, other than to wage constant war against us, and do so with great joy and zeal? Nah, they're playing the long game. There's around 6 million gun owners in kalifornia. Probably 15% of us are diehard enthusiasts. Now 1 million sounds like a lot until you realize that's 2.5% of the state population. Consider the % that voted FOR prop 63.

Do the math.
You only need to turn a profit in three of five years. So what is a profit? $200 in revenue? With lgs doing 100% markup over retail you don't even need to sell allot to cover that $200. I think the law is anticonstituntinal. I think the regulations are crap. I don't think our rights should be put to the poplar vote. I hope Trump signs a guns rights act like the voting rights act that forces all states and cities to protect our rights and locals with a history of infringement should have to have every law prescreened. That said I like most others must play by the rules of the game. If doing so means running a sideline business is required why shouldn't we all.
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:02 PM
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You only need to turn a profit in three of five years. So what is a profit? $200 in revenue? With lgs doing 100% markup over retail you don't even need to sell allot to cover that $200. I think the law is anticonstituntinal. I think the regulations are crap. I don't think our rights should be put to the poplar vote. I hope Trump signs a guns rights act like the voting rights act that forces all states and cities to protect our rights and locals with a history of infringement should have to have every law prescreened. That said I like most others must play by the rules of the game. If doing so means running a sideline business is required why shouldn't we all.


You'll need a business license, a tax id number, local and state permits.

You want to get a deal on ammo and avoid the other crap. You're going to need to actually conduct business operations. You buy a couple thousand in ammo and want to write it off. Which by the way you really can't, because it's not a business expense. If you buy it to sell, you pay income tax if revenue is counted as income, or you pay separate business tax. You're going to form an LLC or S corp?? You buy it to shoot, it's not an expense.

I'll bet you the vendor license requirement is a) a business tax id and b) a storefront of some sort.

Your going to need to have actual regular sales. You'll need to actually demonstrate you're in the business.

I know all this because my wife is a photographer. She turned her lifelong hobby into a business, and yes, enjoys the cameras and such for personal enjoyment, but they get plenty of commercial use. So she had to demonstrate an ongoing concern. She has one. And if she didn't she'd have to pay a lot of back taxes.

I'm with you completely on the tyranny of this state. Our only options all start with the word interstate and end with the word east.
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Old 07-18-2017, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
You'll need a business license, a tax id number, local and state permits.

You want to get a deal on ammo and avoid the other crap. You're going to need to actually conduct business operations. You buy a couple thousand in ammo and want to write it off. Which by the way you really can't, because it's not a business expense. If you buy it to sell, you pay income tax if revenue is counted as income, or you pay separate business tax. You're going to form an LLC or S corp?? You buy it to shoot, it's not an expense.
Well, eventually, you could shoot it, and write it off as "spoilage"
You dont "need" to be incorporated. You could be a sole proprietor. Corps offer some protection, but if you're a one man shop, its easy to pierce the corp vail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
I'll bet you the vendor license requirement is a) a business tax id and b) a storefront of some sort.

Your going to need to have actual regular sales. You'll need to actually demonstrate you're in the business.

I know all this because my wife is a photographer. She turned her lifelong hobby into a business, and yes, enjoys the cameras and such for personal enjoyment, but they get plenty of commercial use. So she had to demonstrate an ongoing concern. She has one. And if she didn't she'd have to pay a lot of back taxes.

I'm with you completely on the tyranny of this state. Our only options all start with the word interstate and end with the word east.
Again, not so much. You could work from home if you wanted to. Be open limited hours. Get a website and email address. And he is right, you only need show a profit 3 of the last 5 years. However, if by chance you dont, you can just start a new corp. its not that tough. If a CCW is a benefit for sure, it would be worth the initial expenses, as you'd transfer assets from one corp to the next.

you could probably create a business and do transfers only and make enough "profit" to keep going
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Old 07-18-2017, 4:40 AM
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Does it affect reloading supplies or just completed ammunition?
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Old 07-18-2017, 4:53 AM
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Thanks for sharing Kes
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:11 AM
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May as well "baseline" this, yet again.

Reloading components aren't impacted (I know...not yet.)
Quote:
Section 16150 of the Penal Code is amended
16150. (a) As used in Section 30300, “ammunition” means handgun ammunition as de ned in Section 16650. As used in this part, except in subdivision (a) of Section 30305 and in Section 30306, “ammunition” means one or more loaded cartridges consisting of a primed case, propellant, and with one or more projectiles. “Ammunition” does not include blanks.
(b) As used in subdivision (a) of Section 30305 and in Section 30306, “ammunition” includes, but is not limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being red from a rearm with a deadly consequence. “Ammunition” does not include blanks.
Sections 30305 and 30306 apply to prohibited persons.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=16150
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=30305.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...6.&lawCode=PEN
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:54 AM
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For a business model, you are looking at at least 70 transactions to cover just business license and ammo license to break even.

Unclear if you have to pay a portion of the transaction fee to DOJ.
200 ammo vendor license
150 business license

Other thoughts:
$$ ADA compliance
$ COE
$ insurance
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Old 07-18-2017, 6:54 AM
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Seem to be nothing in there that requires the vendor to accept online orders, similar to how FFL's are required to do PPT.

So for an online order you have to collect sales taxes, do a background check, and have a store font to allow face to face contact with the buyers. For all that you can only make $5 per transaction. I don't see how anyone would actually make any money doing this. Even the most efficient operation you might make $1 per transaction as profit.

I can see how some places might say $1/minute after the ammo arrives is the storage fee, unless you are on the property waiting for "immediate delivery".
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Old 07-18-2017, 7:10 AM
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We all know it is designed to keep law abiding citizens from purchasing ammo. If there are any workarounds they will close them in time. The only way your going to get around this is jump thru their hoops or support the CRPA and the NRA. It cost less and is better for your pride to spend your money fighting stupid laws than spending it getting screwed by your government.
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Old 07-18-2017, 7:22 AM
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Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Well that sucks

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Indeed, it does suck.

And what sucks even more, is that CA's progressive legislature will continue to have free rein to keep chipping away at the honest citizen's ability to participate in, and enjoy, shooting sports in this misguided state.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayakbriang View Post
For a business model, you are looking at at least 70 transactions to cover just business license and ammo license to break even.

Unclear if you have to pay a portion of the transaction fee to DOJ.
200 ammo vendor license
150 business license

Other thoughts:
$$ ADA compliance
$ COE
$ insurance
that's separate.


§ 4263. Vendor Fee for Processing a Private Party (non-vendor) Ammunition Sale
In addition to any applicable Department of Justice fee, an ammunition vendor may charge the
purchaser a fee(s) for processing the sale of ammunition between two private parties as follows:
(a) If the purchaser will be present for immediate delivery of the ammunition, the fee shall not
exceed five dollars ($5).
(b) If the purchaser will not be present for immediate delivery of the ammunition, the vendor
may charge an additional storage fee as agreed upon with the purchaser prior to the vendor
receiving the ammunition.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:16 AM
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This really is sad if it does go through. The days of finding cool old ammo at gun shows will end in Jan. People will still sell stuff at garage sales since most are clueless of these types of laws, but for the most part gun show sales will die on Jan. 1st. CA really knows how to make life miserable for no good reason.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
1) you've never dealt with writing off business expenses I guess. The IRS doesn't take kindly to massive write-offs if you're not actually engaged in the business. That's called a hobby. Any accountant worth anything will immediately nix that idea.
Actually, ask your accountant, you can write off some hobby expense.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:39 AM
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My county, Merced, won't issue a business license at my home address in the county because it is zoned Ag., and "THEY" have decided that "THEY" don't want to allow it. Most cities won't "ALLOW" a FFL to operate out of their home. Welcome to Commiefornia.
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:42 PM
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Thanks ke6guj. Have they set the DOJ fee?
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Old 07-18-2017, 2:46 PM
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Does anyone have the phone number to the black market? I think I'm gonna have to start buying my ammo from them.
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Old 07-18-2017, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
May as well "baseline" this, yet again.

Reloading components aren't impacted (I know...not yet.)
Sections 30305 and 30306 apply to prohibited persons.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=16150
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=30305.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...6.&lawCode=PEN
Thank you. But I have a feeling that many more people will start reloading. So reloading prices will probably go up as well. Time to start stock piling!
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Old 07-18-2017, 3:59 PM
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I got an email that there will be a hearing on August 28th in Sacramento, I can not make it all the way up there but if anyone on this site attends can you please ask this question for me " Are Airial firework illegal in California? If so how come every 4th of July there are illegal fireworks being set off in California? My point is if they cant control the flow of illegal fireworks coming from Nevada for a once a year celebration how on earth do they plan on controlling the flow of ammunition into California from other states for every day use ? It's a common sense question that I feel needs to be asked . Thanks
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Old 07-18-2017, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaughtyMonkey View Post
Thank you. But I have a feeling that many more people will start reloading. So reloading prices will probably go up as well. Time to start stock piling!
There are restrictions on how much powder you can have in your own home. Can't stockpile a whole lot unfortunately.
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Old 07-18-2017, 4:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncivil Engineer View Post
With lgs doing 100% markup over retail you don't even need to sell allot

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAH


BREATHE.


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAH

Oh man. That was good. Wow I needed that.

Yes, run out and get all the licenses, permits and insurance needed. It's so easy a caveman can do it.
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Old 07-18-2017, 4:50 PM
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They are either going to have to match the ammo waiting period with the firearm waiting period or the other way around in order to keep their story consistent. Having two different standards seems to prove that one of them is either ineffective or unnecessary.
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:01 PM
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Thanks for the info time to buy ammo
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaka View Post
I got an email that there will be a hearing on August 28th in Sacramento, I can not make it all the way up there but if anyone on this site attends can you please ask this question for me " Are Airial firework illegal in California? If so how come every 4th of July there are illegal fireworks being set off in California? My point is if they cant control the flow of illegal fireworks coming from Nevada for a once a year celebration how on earth do they plan on controlling the flow of ammunition into California from other states for every day use ? It's a common sense question that I feel needs to be asked . Thanks
Mark my words. Eventually, there will be border checks with the CHP. They already have AG check stations in place with State employees. It would be very simple to have the CHP, for a few million, paid with an ammo tax, to man those border stations. There is a huge river of ammo flowing across the border now.
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
Mark my words. Eventually, there will be border checks with the CHP. They already have AG check stations in place with State employees. It would be very simple to have the CHP, for a few million, paid with an ammo tax, to man those border stations. There is a huge river of ammo flowing across the border now.
There are published by-passes for all Mexifornia check points.

I think of all people it was done by people who have ferrets.
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:45 PM
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I feel so much safer now
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Old 07-18-2017, 6:19 PM
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I've been stockpiling for a few years in anticipation of this kind of BS. At least ammo is cheaper right now...time to step it up.

I hope I can find a way to buy from some of the good online dealers and transfer through the "approved" vendors.

I'm worried about price, but I'm even more worried about selection. Will I be able to buy my favorite ammo?
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Old 07-18-2017, 6:45 PM
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My point is if they cant control the flow of illegal fireworks coming from Nevada for a once a year celebration how on earth do they plan on controlling the flow of ammunition into California from other states for every day use ? It's a common sense question that I feel needs to be asked . Thanks


You're confusing ignorance with apathy. Of course they know large amounts of "illegal" fireworks cross into kalifornia. They don't care. They don't lack ability, they lack will.

Make no mistake about it. This state is at war with us. They have waged a full scale, all out assault on us and our 2A freedoms. This they will have the will for.

They don't pass laws to make us safer. And they don't pass laws to enforce them. They pass laws to make us criminals and thus to control us. They choose which laws to enforce, which enemies they pursue. We are ruled by evil tyrants and no, that's not hyperbole.

The soviets knew full well there was a vibrant and large black market for all sorts of things but they didn't crack down on it. Ever wonder why? They knew it'd be complete collapse. The black market kept the soviet system alive for a couple decades longer than it otherwise would have lived.

These ammo laws they will enforce. And they'll enforce it hard.
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Old 07-18-2017, 7:23 PM
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Default DoJ Proposed Regs Re: Ammo Vendor Lic.

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Old 07-18-2017, 8:24 PM
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hmmmm....
so no out of state resident can buy ammo.....2a violation right there


i know i am set as a 01ffl already,guess i will buy secure storage for large orders i will receive or
make for others...
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Old 07-19-2017, 2:20 AM
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Can another California federal slam an injunction on this before its enacted...
Make a few calls to our local federal judges?
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Old 07-19-2017, 5:32 AM
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This is best State of your life time together. The one that will get hurt is them and you... these ca laws got to a point where I & some just don't care anymore. We lost the battle already since who knoes when. Few lawsuit battles that so call wins in Court is just all lies, this is just partition that made everyone have high hopes but get shut down in a heart beat. You're the middle man that likes to give your money to them so that they can pretending to help you fight for you rights but in reality-based have they fought and win...? NO!!!! there never a lawsuit that's been kick out because NRA or whatever else won. They played everyone and all you do is just giving your hard working money into their accounts. What do you think? receiving free money from you and they'll used false information to buy everyone trust, than played you like a fool, all goes as plan by saying or so than puts it out to the media for a month so everyone can be happy than it dies out after that. All they'll have to say is it's going to be a long battle and pleased support by giving money. After that you do is repeat that process over again

Last edited by M1XdColt; 07-19-2017 at 5:38 AM..
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Old 07-19-2017, 5:33 AM
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FFL + COE let's you continue to order online right?
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Old 07-19-2017, 5:41 AM
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Old 07-19-2017, 5:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
Mark my words. Eventually, there will be border checks with the CHP. They already have AG check stations in place with State employees. It would be very simple to have the CHP, for a few million, paid with an ammo tax, to man those border stations. There is a huge river of ammo flowing across the border now.
Ya right. As long as the person isn't doing anything to cause attention such as speeding, wreck-less driving, et cetera, hundreds of vehicles will bring ammo into California on an annual basis. Ammo outlet stores will pop up just beyond the borders in Nevada, Arizona and Oregon. California has yet created another blackmarket.

Last edited by August; 07-19-2017 at 5:59 AM..
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