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  #1  
Old 04-13-2017, 10:29 AM
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Default *OP UPDATED 08/08/2018*Ammo ban action plan for those of us with 03 FFL and COE

LIST OF VENDORS THAT ARE GOOD TO GO IS BELOW

So, we've heard midway may or may not ship to FFLs in CA regardless of the legality of doing so.

I suggest we begin emailing our vendors and attempting to sway them in the direction of shipping to CA FFLs after 1/1/18. If they can see that it will be a financially viable option, we could get some vendors on our side and make the new law much less painful.

After vendors tell us their policy, we should create a spreadsheet of differing vendors policies. We can support those willing to support us unti the ban and after.

I've already called and emailed the-armory.com and they have promised to look into the issue and supply and answer soon. They seemed very willing to help out if possible.

Thoughts or suggestions on how to make this work would be awesome. If anyone with website/app experience is willing to make an online database for this information I'm willing to pitch in my time to keep it updated and current.

I truly think if we push hard, we may have options after 1/1/18 to keep shooting sports affordable.

***UPDATES***

www.palmettostatearmory.com WILL continue to ship to CA FFLs 100%

www.Luckygunner.com will ship to any FFL after 1/1/18 except for the cities that outright ban it like Los Angeles City, Santa Monica, ETC. LA county good to go!

www.TargetsportsUSA.com is good to go for FFLs including 03 after the 1st! "We love our California customers!”

www.ammosupplywarehouse.com Will supply those of us with FFL + COE

www.bonefroggunclub.com will ship to FFL and COE holders after the new year. I spoke to the owner who was very personable and helpful. He also has a smooth system set up where we get our documents to him and we get an account that we can use at will without verifying again. Great opportunity to support an independently owned business. He is also open to us communicating our needs to him in the future.

www.outdoorlimited.com We will sell and ship to CA residents if it is legal to do so. We will know more closer to the end of the year.

www.bulkammo.com/

www.ammoman.com/

www.aimsurplus.com is good to go!!

www.southernohiogun.com

www.ammomenllc.com

www.selwayarmory.com/

www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

www.freedommunitions.com

www.classicfirearms.com

www.jgsales.com

www.militaryshooters.com
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Last edited by BennyAdeline; 08-08-2018 at 7:35 PM.. Reason: Update
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:38 AM
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I've also contacted palmetto state and aim surplus. I'll keep cracking at this and report any results.

SGammo is officially "on the fence".
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BennyAdeline View Post
I've also contacted palmetto state and aim surplus. I'll keep cracking at this and report any results.

SGammo is officially "on the fence".
I contacted AIM about a month ago. They are drafting something it seems so thats positive.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:02 PM
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I contacted AIM about a month ago. They are drafting something it seems so thats positive.
It would be great to have them in our corner.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:04 PM
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OP.....Thanks for your efforts in this matter.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BennyAdeline View Post
So, we've heard midway may or may not ship to FFLs in CA regardless of the legality of doing so.

I suggest we begin emailing our vendors and attempting to sway them in the direction of shipping to CA FFLs after 1/1/18. If they can see that it will be a financially viable option, we could get some vendors on our side and make the new law much less painful.

After vendors tell us their policy, we should create a spreadsheet of differing vendors policies. We can support those willing to support us unti the ban and after.

I've already called and emailed the-armory.com and they have promised to look into the issue and supply and answer soon. They seemed very willing to help out if possible.

Thoughts or suggestions on how to make this work would be awesome. If anyone with website/app experience is willing to make an online database for this information I'm willing to pitch in my time to keep it updated and current.

I truly think if we push hard, we may have options after 1/1/18 to keep shooting sports affordable.

Midway's confirmed they WILL ship to FFL holders in Cali, received the below a couple days ago:




You are being alerted to upcoming changes which will affect the terms of service on your MidwayUSA account.

On November 8, 2016, the State of California passed Proposition 63, also known as the Safety For All Act. This wide sweeping legislation resulted in several changes to California laws regarding guns and ammunition.
While the Safety for All Act changes many things, most importantly to you as a MidwayUSA Customer, it makes the sale of ammunition via the internet, to any individual who does not possess an FFL or other legally documented exception to the law, illegal as of January 1, 2018.

All California ammunition transactions, to private individuals, without legal exceptions, occurring on or after January 1, 2018 must happen face to face. Therefore, on December 24th, 2017 MidwayUSA will no longer be able to ship ammunition to you without a valid FFL license in California. The December 24th date allows enough time for delivery of ammunition, from our shipping facility, to our California Customers before the law takes effect.

While there are other documented exceptions to this law, MidwayUSA is currently unable to manage exceptions beyond a valid FFL. If you are an FFL holder, please check to make sure we have your valid FFL on file at MidwayUSA to prevent any delays in your shipment.
If we can be of assistance with your ammunition purchases between now and December 25, 2017, we would be honored serve you.

Sincerely,
MidwayUSA
Customer Service
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS77 View Post
Midway's confirmed they WILL ship to FFL holders in Cali, received the below a couple days ago:




You are being alerted to upcoming changes which will affect the terms of service on your MidwayUSA account.

On November 8, 2016, the State of California passed Proposition 63, also known as the Safety For All Act. This wide sweeping legislation resulted in several changes to California laws regarding guns and ammunition.
While the Safety for All Act changes many things, most importantly to you as a MidwayUSA Customer, it makes the sale of ammunition via the internet, to any individual who does not possess an FFL or other legally documented exception to the law, illegal as of January 1, 2018.

All California ammunition transactions, to private individuals, without legal exceptions, occurring on or after January 1, 2018 must happen face to face. Therefore, on December 24th, 2017 MidwayUSA will no longer be able to ship ammunition to you without a valid FFL license in California. The December 24th date allows enough time for delivery of ammunition, from our shipping facility, to our California Customers before the law takes effect.

While there are other documented exceptions to this law, MidwayUSA is currently unable to manage exceptions beyond a valid FFL. If you are an FFL holder, please check to make sure we have your valid FFL on file at MidwayUSA to prevent any delays in your shipment.
If we can be of assistance with your ammunition purchases between now and December 25, 2017, we would be honored serve you.

Sincerely,
MidwayUSA
Customer Service
Hoping this ends up being true.

Some are reporting that midway said no and some say they said yes.

Hoping it works out. When it's 100% I'll add them as confirmed in the original post.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:29 PM
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less competition is going to cause higher prices for CA

less supply / high demand / higher price
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by omega View Post
less competition is going to cause higher prices for CA
I'm not sold on that.

If I'm ordering from palmetto (for example) , I'm buying at the listed price which is the same for everyone.

The point of this is us having some buying power. If one vendor jacks up prices and fees, we find one that won't.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TS77 View Post
Midway's confirmed they WILL ship to FFL holders in Cali, received the below a couple days ago:




You are being alerted to upcoming changes which will affect the terms of service on your MidwayUSA account.

On November 8, 2016, the State of California passed Proposition 63, also known as the Safety For All Act. This wide sweeping legislation resulted in several changes to California laws regarding guns and ammunition.
While the Safety for All Act changes many things, most importantly to you as a MidwayUSA Customer, it makes the sale of ammunition via the internet, to any individual who does not possess an FFL or other legally documented exception to the law, illegal as of January 1, 2018.

All California ammunition transactions, to private individuals, without legal exceptions, occurring on or after January 1, 2018 must happen face to face. Therefore, on December 24th, 2017 MidwayUSA will no longer be able to ship ammunition to you without a valid FFL license in California. The December 24th date allows enough time for delivery of ammunition, from our shipping facility, to our California Customers before the law takes effect.

While there are other documented exceptions to this law, MidwayUSA is currently unable to manage exceptions beyond a valid FFL. If you are an FFL holder, please check to make sure we have your valid FFL on file at MidwayUSA to prevent any delays in your shipment.
If we can be of assistance with your ammunition purchases between now and December 25, 2017, we would be honored serve you.

Sincerely,
MidwayUSA
Customer Service
I'm wary of that statement. They say FFL, but don't particularly call out FFL-03/Curio & Relic. I know that as it stands right now there's no way to validate an FFL-03 using the same online mechanism as the other types and worry that they might reject C&R because of this as it takes "too much effort to validate". But maybe I'm just jaded and too used to Californians getting the short end of the stick from both sides.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:51 PM
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Default higher prices for Ca

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyAdeline View Post
I'm not sold on that.

If I'm ordering from palmetto (for example) , I'm buying at the listed price which is the same for everyone.

The point of this is us having some buying power. If one vendor jacks up prices and fees, we find one that won't.
I noticed smaller gun shows with less ammo vendors usually have higher prices than the big shows with more vendors to choose from

If the out of state ammo vendors are cut back to only a few that will ship to CA, then they will have the power to charge a higher price since you wont have much choice who you can get it from

If you find one dealer that doesnt jack up prices then everybody will buy from that vendor causing less supply.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by omega View Post
I noticed smaller gun shows with less ammo vendors usually have higher prices than the big shows with more vendors to choose from

If the out of state ammo vendors are cut back to only a few that will ship to CA, then they will have the power to charge a higher price since you wont have much choice who you can get it from

If you find one dealer that doesnt jack up prices then everybody will buy from that vendor causing less supply.
I understand your points.

My point is that them shipping to CA costs them nothing extra. We would be ordering from the national ammo pool so we would be paying normal prices. They aren't going to make websites/prices for just Californians.
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Old 04-13-2017, 1:17 PM
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I called Midway CS and asked the specific question in regards to the FFL03 & COE and shipping ammo to CA in 2018. They said that all they need is a current, signed FFL03 on file to ship ammo to CA in 2018. I faxed them my FFL03 and within 5 minutes I received a e-mail verification that my FFL03 was added to my account...

Is this good enough? I don't know. Midway is a huge online vendor and I am sure they have a team of attorneys that makes sure they stay on the right side of the law...

Money talks. If the profit margin warrants it, the SGAmmo's and such will get on board...
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Old 04-13-2017, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 1bulletBarney View Post
I called Midway CS and asked the specific question in regards to the FFL03 & COE and shipping ammo to CA in 2018. They said that all they need is a current, signed FFL03 on file to ship ammo to CA in 2018...
That's interesting - I also called today and got the opposite direction...that they will only ship to 01FFLs and not 03FFLs with CoE. I'm not trying to spread FUD, just adding my experience. I think I'll call them again.

Of course, it could be that they are still figuring out their policy and spreading the word to their CS people. I'll update when I have a chance to call and speak with another person.

Orders placed Jan 1, 2018 will be the test, I suppose.
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Old 04-13-2017, 1:32 PM
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That's interesting - I also called today and got the opposite direction...that they will only ship to 01FFLs and not 03FFLs with CoE. I'm not trying to spread FUD, just adding my experience. I think I'll call them again.

Of course, it could be that they are still figuring out their policy and spreading the word to their CS people. I'll update when I have a chance to call and speak with another person.

Orders placed Jan 1, 2018 will be the test, I suppose.
FWIW, I called them yesterday...
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Old 04-13-2017, 1:35 PM
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That's interesting - I also called today and got the opposite direction...that they will only ship to 01FFLs and not 03FFLs with CoE. I'm not trying to spread FUD, just adding my experience. I think I'll call them again.

Of course, it could be that they are still figuring out their policy and spreading the word to their CS people. I'll update when I have a chance to call and speak with another person.

Orders placed Jan 1, 2018 will be the test, I suppose.
Did you say " C&R" license or FFL03?

The only reason I ask is that i contacted them today and only said "ffl03" and they said yes.

(If they are narrowly trained on the subject, they might not understand C&R is my thought)
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Old 04-13-2017, 1:47 PM
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Sometimes phone people are, well.....just phone people. Not extremely knowledgeable.

I really really hope SG gets on board and continues to ship here.....I have spent thousands with them the last few years.
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Old 04-13-2017, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sousuke View Post
Did you say " C&R" license or FFL03?
I definitely said "03FFL" and the CS agent placed me on hold to speak with a supervisor. When she came back, the answer was (paraphrasing) 'we won't ship to 03FFLs next year, but we will to 01FFLs.' She did say "03" or "type 3" back to me so we were speaking that kind of lingo.

Bainter - agreed, it may be the case that not everyone is on the same page yet. I'll try again in the morning and see what the next person says. I also hope SG stays with us. Last week I traded a couple of emails with Sam and, like others have said, he is on the fence. I'm not as optimistic as others are that he'll be with us next year - reading between the lines of the email, he sounded a little tired. I sent encouraging and appreciative words to him all the same...he runs one of the better businesses out there from my experience and it would be a shame to lose that link.
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Old 04-13-2017, 3:14 PM
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i'm just wondering, besides asking concerning 03ffl license holders, maybe people should be asking about shipping ammo in general.

i mean it is a moot point if they won't even ship ammo to a 01FFL in 2018.

i mean i can see how some may be hesitant since it now opens up many cases of potential "lost" shipments or fraud

i mean how closely are the FFL's going to be tracking each shipment of ammo that comes to their door? what will be their ID check?

what if i wanted to send a family member to pickup or someone wanted to send their spouse? i mean this whole thing is going to be a logistical nightmare for the CA FFL and the ammo seller.

i mean we see some on here buying ammo nearly everyday from the deals section. now times that by a few hundred or thousand, and all those shipments going to 1 FFL in the area, UPS/FEDEX will need to have freight delivery to these stores just b/c of the weight and amount.
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Old 04-13-2017, 4:12 PM
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Old 04-13-2017, 5:42 PM
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This is the response I received from my email to Midway:

Quote:
Thank you for your recent email in regards to having ammunition shipped to you after the first of the year. I apologize for the confusion this may have caused you. Unfortunately at this time we will need a current FFL to have the ammunition shipped to and an FLL03 and a COE would not be the same. I hope you have a wonderful day and I look forward to doing business with you in the future.
I followed it up with a phone call and was told the issue is they cannot verify a FFL03 using the ATF online EZ check system like they can with other types of FFLs. They also cannot verify the validity of a COE with the State of CA. Until they can easily do both, they will not ship ammo to a FFL03 holder who also has a COE. I spoke with a supervisor and not the customer service rep you are first connected to when you call the customer service number.
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Old 04-13-2017, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BennyAdeline View Post
I understand your points.

My point is that them shipping to CA costs them nothing extra. We would be ordering from the national ammo pool so we would be paying normal prices. They aren't going to make websites/prices for just Californians.
Price increase in theory should just be whatever background/FFL fees there end up being. I'm willing to bet the LGS's will probably have inflated prices, but each of "our FFL" types might not be too bad.
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Old 04-13-2017, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 1bulletBarney View Post
I called Midway CS and asked the specific question in regards to the FFL03 & COE and shipping ammo to CA in 2018. They said that all they need is a current, signed FFL03 on file to ship ammo to CA in 2018. I faxed them my FFL03 and within 5 minutes I received a e-mail verification that my FFL03 was added to my account...
Good for you!

I too called MidwayUSA, and the person I talked to explained that they would only take "FFL" licenses. I explained that a C&R was one type of FFL. She actually checked with a superior, and confirmed they would not take a C&R.

If you were successful, then maybe I need to be more persistent.
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Old 04-13-2017, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Experimentalist View Post
Good for you!

I too called MidwayUSA, and the person I talked to explained that they would only take "FFL" licenses. I explained that a C&R was one type of FFL. She actually checked with a superior, and confirmed they would not take a C&R.

If you were successful, then maybe I need to be more persistent.
They cancelled their dealer pricing program for us C&R types a couple of years ago as a way of enhancing our shopping experience. I have since enhanced my buying experience.
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Old 04-13-2017, 7:57 PM
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...so where are all the FFL's gonna store your net purchased ammo.
**(waiting for God knows how long for customer pickup)

Most lgs don't have counter space much less back room acreage to store a metric ton of ammo.

This will get ugly and promote a bigger black market for ammo.

That sounds "safe for all".
Brought to you by our corrupt govt sucks.
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Old 04-14-2017, 9:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
This is the response I received from my email to Midway:



I followed it up with a phone call and was told the issue is they cannot verify a FFL03 using the ATF online EZ check system like they can with other types of FFLs. They also cannot verify the validity of a COE with the State of CA. Until they can easily do both, they will not ship ammo to a FFL03 holder who also has a COE. I spoke with a supervisor and not the customer service rep you are first connected to when you call the customer service number.
Can FFL 03s voluntarily register with the CFLC? If so, then Midway would have a way of confirming.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
Most lgs don't have counter space much less back room acreage to store a metric ton of ammo.

This will get ugly and promote a bigger black market for ammo.
As I've posted before, do what you can to develop contacts with out-of-staters' that periodically visit California.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by -hanko View Post
As I've posted before, do what you can to develop contacts with out-of-staters' that periodically visit California.
you do know that those out of stater's are still subject to CA law once they cross the border right?

and iirc this law forbids importation of ammo even if the person is going to use that ammo personally once in state.
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
Proof we can all comment on whatever we want if it's at all related to the topic at hand!
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Old 04-14-2017, 2:42 PM
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I bet 50 rounds of 5.7x28 that at some point in 2018 CA will post agents of some agency at the Agriculture checkpoints to look for ammo in quantities greater than 50 rounds. CA resident or not.
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:00 PM
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I bet 50 rounds of 5.7x28 that at some point in 2018 CA will post agents of some agency at the Agriculture checkpoints to look for ammo in quantities greater than 50 rounds. CA resident or not.
who the heck drives with their ammo in plain view?
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:15 PM
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I'm wary of that statement. They say FFL, but don't particularly call out FFL-03/Curio & Relic. I know that as it stands right now there's no way to validate an FFL-03 using the same online mechanism as the other types and worry that they might reject C&R because of this as it takes "too much effort to validate". But maybe I'm just jaded and too used to Californians getting the short end of the stick from both sides.
They (and many other vendors) have always recognized the 03FFL for purposes of discounts. Just email or fax a copy of your 03 and they're good to go, even though they can't verify online with the BATFE.

But I agree with the concern.... Non-03 FFLs are exempt by nature, the 03 exemption is when combined with the COE, and the wording does not sound like they intend to create a mechanism to honor that.

OTOH, they may simply ship to any FFL in California and if you don't have a COE, THEY have not violated the law... the buyer has.
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:17 PM
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They cancelled their dealer pricing program for us C&R types a couple of years ago as a way of enhancing our shopping experience. I have since enhanced my buying experience.
I wasn't aware of that.

I never bothered to send in my 03 when I renewed in '13.
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 04-15-2017, 5:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
who the heck drives with their ammo in plain view?
Who drives with oranges in plain view? The AG agents have something (license plate, driver actions, observations, etc) that result in an inspection. Same thing will happen with the ammo inspectors.
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Old 04-15-2017, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marauder2003 View Post
Who drives with oranges in plain view? The AG agents have something (license plate, driver actions, observations, etc) that result in an inspection. Same thing will happen with the ammo inspectors.
Ammo sniffing dogs - like drugs if the dog hits probable cause for search
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Old 04-15-2017, 9:55 PM
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There is a thread in the FFL section that seems to indicate Sportsmans Guide is considering selling to the average Joe and shipping to local FFL. Ive never bought from them but Im glad they are not giving up on Cali
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:38 PM
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less competition is going to cause higher prices for CA

less supply / high demand / higher price
That's the Truth... so are we hoarding ?
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:42 PM
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There is a thread in the FFL section that seems to indicate Sportsmans Guide is considering selling to the average Joe and shipping to local FFL. Ive never bought from them but Im glad they are not giving up on Cali
Yeah, but now they're charging extra. Tonight I tried to order a few boxes of ammo, and they're now charging "CA Shipping Tax" and "CA Sales Tax" - charges that I didn't pay before. Besides, if you really want a good deal from them, you have to be a member $40/Yr - kinda like Costco.

I just bought at SG Ammo. Paid Shipping, but NO Ca Tax.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by .40Cal View Post
Yeah, but now they're charging extra. Tonight I tried to order a few boxes of ammo, and they're now charging "CA Shipping Tax" and "CA Sales Tax" - charges that I didn't pay before. Besides, if you really want a good deal from them, you have to be a member $40/Yr - kinda like Costco.

I just bought at SG Ammo. Paid Shipping, but NO Ca Tax.
hmm -- interesting point. Now that ammo will have to go through FFL that means the state will have a record of it for tax purposes. Remember the tax is Sales and USE tax. So technically CA has their excuse to charge tax.

Remember the change a few years back when the State Board of Equalization started enforcing sales tax on FFL transfers? This is going to happen again on ammo. The receiving FFL will be forced to collect sales tax and submit it to the state.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:09 AM
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Good for you!

I too called MidwayUSA, and the person I talked to explained that they would only take "FFL" licenses. I explained that a C&R was one type of FFL. She actually checked with a superior, and confirmed they would not take a C&R.

If you were successful, then maybe I need to be more persistent.
Very helpful. Thanks for posting this info.
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Old 04-16-2017, 6:11 AM
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Originally Posted by beetle View Post
hmm -- interesting point. Now that ammo will have to go through FFL that means the state will have a record of it for tax purposes. Remember the tax is Sales and USE tax. So technically CA has their excuse to charge tax.

Remember the change a few years back when the State Board of Equalization started enforcing sales tax on FFL transfers? This is going to happen again on ammo. The receiving FFL will be forced to collect sales tax and submit it to the state.
^^^^^this

In before all the California weather lovers/Ski n surf/foot lickers....
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