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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-09-2017, 2:42 PM
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Default San Francisco sues 5 manf. for high cap rebuild kits (SF Superior Court)

Heard this on the radio a few minutes ago, LAK, one of the places I buy from is being sued for selling high cap rebuild kits into CA:

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sf-sues-gu...o-repair-kits/
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Old 02-09-2017, 2:47 PM
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"the only purpose of these magazines is to kill as many people as quickly as possible..." Then why do you want to your police to have them?
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Old 02-09-2017, 2:49 PM
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Trying to supplement their soon to be lost federal funds. ..
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Old 02-09-2017, 2:59 PM
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“It takes a particular type of miscreant to compromise the safety of Californians simply for profit,” Herrera said in a statement.

Miscreants, deplorables, and gun owners...oh my!
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  #5  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:08 PM
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Is that a different one than the suit than the original one that PSA and exile machine were named in?
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdawg86 View Post
Is that a different one than the suit than the original one that PSA and exile machine were named in?
Yep I believe so.
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-- I love the mythological significance given to Dum Dum Bullets. As if they're little tactical nukes, stacked up in "Assault Clips" ready to be "sprayfired" "from the hip" by pistol grip equipped "bullet hoses" instead of early variations of the softpoint bullets people have been using to take game with (and use for self-defense) for the last century.
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Old 02-09-2017, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveohmike View Post
Yep I believe so.
So then some didn't get the memo and have still been selling it seems?
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  #8  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:18 PM
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AAAARRRRR! They be running the blockade!
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:27 PM
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Can't wait for the R's in Congress to use the commerce clause to preempt all such state and local laws.
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  #10  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:36 PM
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damn should have bought from LAK...

needed some more 20 round pmags to block off to 10 myself. now i gotta go out of state, bring my blocks, then buy the mags then block then bring them back myself....
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
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  #11  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdawg86 View Post
So then some didn't get the memo and have still been selling it seems?
Not sure, the article is a bit vague:

"San Francisco is suing five online gun equipment suppliers for allegedly selling large-capacity magazines that have been banned from being distributed in California for nearly two decades.

The lawsuit filed Thursday by City Attorney Dennis Herrera targets Badger Mountain Supply, located in Washington state; 7.62 Precision in Alaska; Shooters Plus, located in Mississippi; LAK Supply of Wyoming; and Buymilsurp.com, located in Florida, which are reportedly selling complete but dissembled large-capacity magazines as “repair kits” to customers in San Francisco and throughout the state. Such magazines have been illegal to sell in California since Jan. 1, 2000."


According to the article selling mag rebuild kits has been illegal for nearly 20 years - who knew, eh? If they're still selling, I suppose that would be a problem.

Before the "no rebuild kits" law passed SF DA sued Copes a few years back, costing them some $$$. Copes settled and turned over names of SF buyers to the SF DA office too. IIRC I got a "you bought a bad thing" letter from either SF or Copes.

So it would seem this is for current transgressions, but considering the article and what SF did with Copes, who knows for sure?

Edit for Correction: See post #24. Copes did not provide mailing list to SF DA. dsf

Last edited by dfletcher; 02-09-2017 at 6:09 PM..
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  #12  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Not sure, the article is a bit vague:

"San Francisco is suing five online gun equipment suppliers for allegedly selling large-capacity magazines that have been banned from being distributed in California for nearly two decades.

The lawsuit filed Thursday by City Attorney Dennis Herrera targets Badger Mountain Supply, located in Washington state; 7.62 Precision in Alaska; Shooters Plus, located in Mississippi; LAK Supply of Wyoming; and Buymilsurp.com, located in Florida, which are reportedly selling complete but dissembled large-capacity magazines as “repair kits” to customers in San Francisco and throughout the state. Such magazines have been illegal to sell in California since Jan. 1, 2000."


According to the article selling mag rebuild kits has been illegal for nearly 20 years - who knew, eh? If they're still selling, I suppose that would be a problem.

Before the "no rebuild kits" law passed SF DA sued Copes a few years back, costing them some $$$. Copes settled and turned over names of SF buyers to the SF DA office too. IIRC I got a "you bought a bad thing" letter from either SF or Copes.

So it would seem this is for current transgressions, but considering the article and what SF did with Copes, who knows for sure?
Copes caved in for names? Exile told them to pound sand correct?
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  #13  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:43 PM
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Litigation - moved.

Complaint: http://www.sfcityattorney.org/wp-con.../Complaint.pdf

Usual mis-statements, lies, and spin at http://www.sfcityattorney.org/2017/0...o-repair-kits/ and in the complaint.

Their argument at part 23 of the complaint suggests PC 32311 prohibits complete mag kits as 'large capacity ammunition conversion kits'; I have long thought that a likely interpretation.
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Last edited by Librarian; 02-09-2017 at 3:48 PM..
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  #14  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:54 PM
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Suppose SF wins (and I presume they would since the courts in California are rigged), how would the city collect? Only California and a couple other regressive states have these absurd laws; most of the rest of the country views California as a state full of loonies.
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  #15  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:56 PM
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OP should try and be accurate. No high cap in ca law only large cap .
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  #16  
Old 02-09-2017, 3:59 PM
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"Defendants are thus flouting a law that is intended to protect the safety of San Francisco residents by eliminating these products entirely from within the City's borders. By their unlawful and unfair conduct, Defendants profit at the expense of public safety throughout the City_ and County of San Francisco. "

But yet illegals and those that cause real crime are ok.
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2017, 4:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveohmike View Post
Yep I believe so.
What was the outcome/status in that case?
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2017, 4:20 PM
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Its OK, SF is a "Sanctuary City".
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2017, 4:21 PM
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If I understand correctly, at least one of these companies, if not all of them, were selling the parts separately. They would ship the mag body and floor plate in one box, then later the spring and follower, or whatever.
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2017, 4:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OniKoroshi View Post
Exile told them to pound sand correct?
http://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pag...t-suit-39.html

On March 19, 2014 Exile Machine LLC settled the lawsuit filed against us by the San Francisco City Attorney. The suit alleged that we unlawfully sold large capacity magazines as repair kits. While we are convinced that we have always complied with all applicable laws, including the statutes at issue in this case, Exile Machine was absolutely unwilling to give up our customer data. The only way that we could be certain that our customer information would remain confidential was to settle the case and pay $15,000 to the San Francisco City Attorney.

Rest assured that throughout the entire course of the litigation and settlement, Exile Machine LLC retained and continues to retain full confidentiality and control of our customer data. Customer and order information has NOT been and will not be revealed to or shared with any person or entity as a result of this lawsuit or settlement.
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  #21  
Old 02-09-2017, 4:27 PM
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I thought this was going to be another thread
Of vendors who will not ship to CA as we are litigious...
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  #22  
Old 02-09-2017, 5:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4Trooper View Post
If I understand correctly, at least one of these companies, if not all of them, were selling the parts separately. They would ship the mag body and floor plate in one box, then later the spring and follower, or whatever.
LAK doesn not sell all the parts in one package. They will sell you a rebuild kit that is missing a piece.

You have to order that piece separately and they are not shipped together. So they do ship you a true non-functional repair kit.
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-- I love the mythological significance given to Dum Dum Bullets. As if they're little tactical nukes, stacked up in "Assault Clips" ready to be "sprayfired" "from the hip" by pistol grip equipped "bullet hoses" instead of early variations of the softpoint bullets people have been using to take game with (and use for self-defense) for the last century.
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  #23  
Old 02-09-2017, 5:45 PM
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Just FYI folks, we are aware of this and are waiting on some correspondence.
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  #24  
Old 02-09-2017, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OniKoroshi View Post
Copes caved in for names? Exile told them to pound sand correct?
Other businesses were involved but not sure what they did. I bought from Copes and although it's been a few years, maybe 3 or 4, the letter I received was from them.

I have to correct myself and do so with an apology. The settlement as described in this 2013 thread states Copes was required to send out letters to certain buyers, but that Copes did not turn over mailing list to SF DA.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...php?p=13117821

"The companies stipulated to settle the case for $15,000 and an agreement to discontinue sales of the body of any magazine capable of holding more than ten rounds to California customers. The companies also agreed to send a letter to San Francisco and Sunnyvale customers advising them of those cities’ recently enacted magazines possession bans.

Although the companies believed they would prevail on the merits of the case, each company opted to settle the matter to protect against the possibility that customer identities might be revealed during the litigation."


I haven't exactly been waiting for a "knock on the door" but am glad to know I was wrong, that getting a letter didn't result from names being given to the DA.

Last edited by dfletcher; 02-09-2017 at 6:07 PM..
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  #25  
Old 02-09-2017, 7:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAK Supply View Post
Just FYI folks, we are aware of this and are waiting on some correspondence.
Thanks look forward to the update. Sorry for our state being stupid as ****.
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-- I love the mythological significance given to Dum Dum Bullets. As if they're little tactical nukes, stacked up in "Assault Clips" ready to be "sprayfired" "from the hip" by pistol grip equipped "bullet hoses" instead of early variations of the softpoint bullets people have been using to take game with (and use for self-defense) for the last century.
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  #26  
Old 02-09-2017, 7:23 PM
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I lived in SF for 50 years. It's like being married to a whore. She going to f u over. As soon as Newscum becomes Gov, look at SF gun laws statewide. Buy as many hollow points as you can. There are illegal in SF.
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  #27  
Old 02-09-2017, 7:29 PM
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This is why the new magazine laws are so adamant about what the magazine looks like - if they can ban a body type, they can prevent the crucial part of the kit from being shipped.

Up until recently the problem was that people legally possessed standard magazines and could legitimately have to repair them. Since the new ban on *possession* is coming up, the whole issue of kits will go away - magazine body will be illegal to purchase. Those who don't want to obey the new law ("occupy magazines") can just purchase them out of state since there will be no difference when it comes to possession.
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2017, 7:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcheung2 View Post
"the only purpose of these magazines is to kill as many people as quickly as possible..." Then why do you want to your police to have them?
^^this
good argument.
the magazines were definitely not made to protect your right to live, or even to go out to the shooting range with the family. They can only be used for one purpose...thats just common sense if you ask me.
(i dont think these people even here the junk that falls from their scared, uneducated mouths.)
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2017, 8:17 PM
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Good thing I never purchased nor obtained such killer devices.
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:53 PM
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When is S.F. going to sue Leland Yee?
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  #31  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:59 PM
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So let me see if I have this right, a city that fails to follow laws is suing companies for allegedly failing to follow laws?
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  #32  
Old 02-10-2017, 7:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVOC5150 View Post
So let me see if I have this right, a city that fails to follow laws is suing companies for allegedly failing to follow laws?
You are correct. Ironic, isn't it?
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  #33  
Old 02-10-2017, 8:21 AM
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Google maps lists lak as permanently closed. I wonder why.
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  #34  
Old 02-10-2017, 8:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAK Supply View Post
Just FYI folks, we are aware of this and are waiting on some correspondence.
Good luck to you guys. Hopefully the NRA or CRPA will hep you guys out. Cant wait to leave this place.
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Old 02-10-2017, 8:55 AM
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Originally Posted by HAVOC5150 View Post
So let me see if I have this right, a city that fails to follow laws is suing companies for allegedly failing to follow laws?
Yep...that's when you know your Gov't has gone full rogue. The scream and cry about guns and public safety......all the while openly harboring known violent criminals. How can anyone take your cries of public safety seriously when you harbor known violent criminals?

There is no rule of law in this state anymore. It does what it wants, and that's called tyranny!
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  #36  
Old 02-10-2017, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile Machine View Post
http://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pag...t-suit-39.html

On March 19, 2014 Exile Machine LLC settled the lawsuit filed against us by the San Francisco City Attorney. The suit alleged that we unlawfully sold large capacity magazines as repair kits. While we are convinced that we have always complied with all applicable laws, including the statutes at issue in this case, Exile Machine was absolutely unwilling to give up our customer data. The only way that we could be certain that our customer information would remain confidential was to settle the case and pay $15,000 to the San Francisco City Attorney.

Rest assured that throughout the entire course of the litigation and settlement, Exile Machine LLC retained and continues to retain full confidentiality and control of our customer data. Customer and order information has NOT been and will not be revealed to or shared with any person or entity as a result of this lawsuit or settlement.
And please know that it did NOT go unnoticed.
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  #37  
Old 02-10-2017, 10:54 AM
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Anytime someone ask why people do not deal with CA, won't ship to CA, refused to help CA this is why. For those of us in CA we live with this every day and are always making sure we can stay compliant. Even things thought to be simple require time and money with attorneys.

Support your local FFLs
Support those who sell to us in CA
Support those companies out of CA who continue to deal with this crap

Spending $1, $5, $10 or even $100 more is nothing when it comes to supporting those FFLs and companies in and outside of CA that fight and deal with this crap daily to support your second amendment right.
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  #38  
Old 02-10-2017, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile Machine View Post
The only way that we could be certain that our customer information would remain confidential was to settle the case and pay $15,000 to the San Francisco City Attorney.
It's absolutely disgusting that the San Francisco city attorney extorted you through abuse of the legal process. This is a nuisance payment at best, and the fact that they settled for this amount should seriously call into question the merits of their case.

If a patent troll going around seeking nuisance-level settlements that are lower than typical litigation expenses can lead to sanctions, this should also qualify as a sanctionable offense. At the very least, a bar complaint should be filed against the attorney.
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  #39  
Old 02-10-2017, 2:22 PM
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The risk to reward ratio is getting worse every year. I am always dealing with someone I am not sure is a legit customer or an agent trying to get me to break CA law. Most of the time it has to do with magazines.
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  #40  
Old 02-10-2017, 2:36 PM
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This is why people won't sell stuff here, too much to try to keep up with the random **** laws and they don't want to have to pay an extension fee when they get sued.
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