Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Gunsmithing & How To
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Gunsmithing & How To Pro, Amateur & WECSOG and Tutorials, Guides & OLL Build Instructions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:11 PM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default Lee-Enfield 7.62 NATO Conversion

I am inquiring as to the technical feasibility of converting a No.4 MkI or No.5 Lee-Enfield rifle to 7.62 NATO. I do know the British successfully did it to such rifles following the adoption of the 7.62 NATO round by NATO. However, their successful conversions were heavy-barreled target and sniper rifles, which is in the opposite direction of what I am trying to do.

I am trying to make a scout-type rifle based on a military Enfield action. To that end, the rifle would have to be fairly light, not exceeding 7 3/4 lbs. with accessories, unloaded. I was especially considering a No.5 Mk I receiver as the basis for this.

At first I was considering an Ishapore Lee-Enfield in .308, but it would be alot of work to get the configuration I want and alot of money, provided everything is feasible. This would especially be the case with the sights. I prefer the sights from the No.4s/No.5s and I would want them mounted in a similar position. I'm just not sure this would be possible for an Ishapore.

However, I just thought of the idea of using an Ishapore barrel on a No.5 receiver. The only thing is, I'm not sure how feasible this actually is, either. I have heard that the threads are different, and I am not sure about diameter or anything like that. One thing I would like to know is if it is somehow feasible to mate these two together, and also if lightening cuts like on No.5 barrels are possible with this barrel.

The other things I would want to do are to modify the sight markings so that they correspond to the .308 trajectory, shorten the barrel to the length of the No. 5 one and add the No.5 front sight/flash suppressor/bayonet lug (the only thing that is not part of the scout concept), modify the stripper clip guide to accept and properly feed rounds from NATO 7.62 stripper clips, and replace the bolt head with one made for use with .308 rounds (like the British proofed ones; I would want to know if the Ishapore ones could be used), as well as the extractor (using the Ishapore one).

For the magazine, I would want to know if the Ishapore ones could be used without modification, and if not, I would want to modify the well to accept them (they are easier to find than British .308 Enfield mags). I would want to modify the mags to have a double detent, if possible (it looks feasible to me, but I'm not a gunsmith). I would want to use a No.4 butt and also add a swivel to the loop in front of the magazine.

Finally, I would add the XS scout scope mount for Enfields and also have the handguard modified to allow for the mount's use, as I like the look of the handguard, and would like to retain it.

If possible, I would like a synthetic stock, but other than Ram-Line and ATI stocks, which I do not want, I can't seem to find any. Are there any companies that make custom synthetic stocks out there, and how much would something like that cost if there are? Would the wood stock require modifcation (I have heard the non-sniper British conversions failed because of interference in the barrel harmonics or something like that), or would a new one be needed? Also, if I could find one, I would want a Clifton Arms retractable bipod installed, if that is feasible to take out and put in a new synthetic stock. Would it be feasible in a wood stock?

Is this project feasible at all, and if not in its entirety, what parts are feasible? Are there any gunsmiths in California capable of doing this kind of work and doing it well? While there is a spending limit, the cap is sufficiently high, and I'm willing to spend a decent amount to have this work out.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-03-2008, 12:02 AM
crob241's Avatar
crob241 crob241 is offline
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kalif.
Posts: 220
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default 308 enfield

Just about any .30 caliber rifle can be converted to 308, the Enfield comes in a 308 version from the Ishapore arsenal in India and can be had surplus, plus it holds 10 rounds. If you want to make a sporter the Enfield is a good choice able to take up to 45-70 govt.. I have converted several military surplus rifles to other calibers, a Mosin to 308, a Mauser to 45-70 among the latest. I use E.R Shaw for barrels, for example they charge $150 for a 45-70 brl in sporter config, in steel and about another $150 for chambering, modifying the action, bolt etc. thats about the cheapest you will find and the same for most calibers. I use Richards for wood stocks, I get a nice grade 2 walnut for about $75 that just needs finishing and bedding, several companies make synthetic stocks for the enfield. Unless you have a lathe and know how to use it it would be better in the long run to have at least the brl and bolt work done by a pro then you can put everything together with hand tools for the most part. Hope this helps, if you have more questions email me at charlie@overlandplating.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-03-2008, 1:06 AM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Unfortunately, E.R. Shaw does not do barrels for No. 4/5 Enfields. However, I did find a good replacement trigger that is inexpensive but has very positive reviews.

As I mentioned, I am aware of the Ishapore, I just think it may require work that cannot be done to meet my specs, although if anyone can correct me on this, I would be glad to hear it.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-03-2008, 2:12 AM
GuyW GuyW is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,303
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

...talking off the top of my head here, in the middle of the night...

....IIRC, Enfield receiver strength is about maxed out with .308 power level...

...and the Mk 5 reciever, IIRC, is the one that was lightened (and weakened) for the jungle carbine, and one reputed source of its poor accuracy...

....doesn't seem too promising to me...
.

Last edited by GuyW; 11-03-2008 at 2:20 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-03-2008, 2:54 AM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

The No.5 is not inaccurate, nor does my example have a wandering zero. I have heard the whole wandering zero thing was made up.
I am unsure how much the No.5 was weakened, if at all, or if it can still withstand 7.62 NATO pressures, but it is something I am trying to find out for certain.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-03-2008, 9:54 PM
FMJBT's Avatar
FMJBT FMJBT is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 4,664
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Adams & Bennett barrels F-34 contour would probably work for what you have in mind:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=899488

I have a No.4 Mk1 coverted to 308 using one of their F-54 barrels. Third one down in this pic:


For magazines, I found it easier and cheaper to just use M-14 mags. The conversion is relatively easy, but requires some time on a milling machine make relief cuts for the feed lips of the M-14 magazine. A small cross bar gets tack welded at the forward edge of the mag well to provide a mounting point for the new mags. The mag release also has some metal added to the catch area to engage the block at the rear of the magazine to hold it at the correct angle for feeding.

Proofed bolt heads are getting hard to find, and bolt parts from the Ishapore units do not interchange with No.4s. 7.62 extractors can still be found, or the standard 303 extractor can be lightly ground to allow it to overhang the bolt face enough to work on the 7.62/308 rim. Without a proof marked bolt head though, I would keep it to just mil spec 7.62 NATO rounds. Commercial 308 will test the limits of the Enfield action strength. The headspace on mine has grown from using commercial 308 to the point that the action almost closes on the No Go gauge. I have since switched to NATO ammunition and handloads loaded to reduced pressures. Do not make any lightening cuts to the receiver of an Enfield if chambering for 7.62/308. The ounce or so you might shave off may just be the ounce that was preventing it from grenading......

For converting the markings on the iron sights, the British had a very simple solution to the problem: They simply marked the sight "Meters" instead of "Yards", and moved the datum line on the sliding part of the sight .07" lower.

I quickly discovered the the downside to converting an Enfield to 7.62 NATO is that the action loses much of its speed and ease of movement. The non tapered cases of the 7.62 round induce a lot more drag as the bolt is cycled forward. Positive extraction and ejection also requires that the bolt be brought rearwards very quickly to ensure the case gets ejected.
__________________
U.S. Navy (Retired) 1994-2015
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-04-2008, 1:58 AM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

I actually found a manufacturer of 7.62 Enfields from Australia. They make a No.4 MkI, as well as a sporter and a target model. I like the sporter as a place to start.



It needs to lose a couple of pounds, though, I'm just not sure where it will come from. Mods I would have made, though, would be adding finger grooves (which they offer on the target model which looks similar, but not on this one) and also modifying the buttstock so that it is no longer in a Monte Carlo configuration. I really don't like Monte Carlo stocks. I would probably have the bolt handle knob hollowed out. I would have someone cut down the barrel somewhat over 3 inches and replace the front sight with the one for the No.5. I would also replace the flip-up sight with the micrometer one when not using a scope. I'd probably have the stock shortened a tad bit more, with the handguard even moreso, with part cut away to allow the mounting of the XS scope mount forward of the receiver.

I don't know if they eliminated the third sling swivel one this one, it kind of looks that way from the pictures, but if they did, I would want that added.

They also replaced the stripper clip guide with a solid block drilled and tapped for a scope mount. I would want this cut away to make a stripper clip guide for NATO stripper clips. I would also have the whole thing parkerized instead of blued.

I think this just became alot more feasible. One thing I still cannot quite figure out is what mods to do to lighten the whole thing up. Some sort of fluting on the barrel perhaps, No.5 style or otherwise? I'm also curious as to what mags they use, I don't think they use Ishapore style ones, although I could be wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-04-2008, 1:59 AM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

On second thought, the mag almost looks like an M-14 one, which would be cool if it is so.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-09-2008, 3:43 AM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

I did find a lighter version which uses a lightweight profile barrel from a minigun as opposed to the medium-profile barrel used in the sporter model and also uses the No.4 nosecap in lieu of the barrel band to hold the handguard to the forestock. However, it will still probably be a bit too heavy.

I have found out that the receiver can have lightening cuts made to it if someone knows what they are doing. The manufacturer is planning on doing extensive cuts to a future production model, but the cuts are much more extensive than I would like based on the model they wish to emulate and other mods are being made.

Does anyone know of a gunsmith in California, preferably the L.A. area or the North Bay area (or even SoCal or the Bay Area in general) that is familiar enough with the Lee-Enfield and good enough as a gunsmith to do this sort of work, particularly the lightening cuts, to one of these rifles? Or even a gunsmith in the U.S. in general? For other work I want, what are some good gunsmiths in the areas I mentioned? Also, if I buy the lighter limited edition model, some furniture is chrome-plated. Is there a way to remove the chrome and refinish the parts?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-09-2008, 8:47 PM
gozuki gozuki is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 647
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Here is my 5.5lb Ishapore...


Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-09-2008, 8:48 PM
gozuki gozuki is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 647
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

16" barrel, Mauser rear sight, Ramline synth stock...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-10-2008, 4:09 PM
FMJBT's Avatar
FMJBT FMJBT is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 4,664
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

IIRC the AIA/Tri Star Enfields are made in Vietnam, and are not importable to the U.S. If you have found a way around this, you will offically be my new best friend
__________________
U.S. Navy (Retired) 1994-2015
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-11-2008, 5:26 AM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

According to what I have read, the country of origin is Australia. Certain components are made in other countries, which includes Vietnam. Assembly is done in Australia, though, and I believe the receivers come from there as well. As it is, the rifle would be physically imported from Australia. I don't see anything that would have to be put on the ATF Form 6 that would prohibit importation except one thing, but I doubt it means anything. The thing is made with a minigun barrel, as in the M134. However, the U.S. military did not make it or have a role in its design, and I think they are surplus Australian military, but I would have to check with AIA. If this is the case, I can't see anything else which would prohibit importation. I'm going to talk to an FFL about this soon, as there aren't many of this model still available. Oh, and I think AIA may actually be starting importation into the U.S. soon.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-11-2008, 10:15 AM
motorhead's Avatar
motorhead motorhead is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: DAGO
Posts: 3,411
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

what a wicked little carbine gozuki.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-12-2008, 3:10 PM
ISC ISC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

why not just get an Ishapore .308? I'm selling mine for $200.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-12-2008, 5:57 PM
bigstick61 bigstick61 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,120
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Because it would require more work and more difficult or possibly even unfeasible work to get the specs I want. I had already considered it. I'll probably get an Ishapore anyways at some point in time.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:11 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.