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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 10-30-2008, 5:44 PM
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Default why are 410 pistols like "taurus judge" illegal

why is the taurus judge and other dual caliber 45 colt 410 pistols

and every other pistol that uses cci shotshells not also banned?

its one thing to ban smoothbore pistols but since the judge is rifled it is no different than using a shotshell in a pistol

can anybody quote me the law so i can see how it is worded?
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Old 10-30-2008, 5:45 PM
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Ive wondered that myself
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Old 10-30-2008, 5:46 PM
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Any pistol with an unrifled barrel is a California-defined "short barrel shotgun" and therefore illegal.

Here's a test of the performance of the Taurus Judge. I wouldn't want one.
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Old 10-30-2008, 5:50 PM
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Taurus Judge IS rifled.

It was quite a disappointment when I found out that Judge is illegal half a year ago. It was my first choice for a home revolver. I ended up getting Taurus Tracker 627, which I like a lot, but it was still disappointing.
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Old 10-30-2008, 5:58 PM
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I think it's illegal more because it falls under the AW statue that a shotgun can't have a revolving cylinder more-so than it being a handgun-shotgun. It really is no different than loading a CCI shotshell into any other pistol, but then again, show me any piece of anti-gun legislation that is "common sense."

EDIT:

Quote:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
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Old 10-30-2008, 5:59 PM
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CA law defines the .410/.45LC handguns as short barrel shotguns. The barrel having rifling or not does not change it's classification as a SBS in CA.

The Taurus Judge, MIL Inc Thunder Five and Thompson/Center Contender with .410/.45LC barrel all fit the SBS definition laid forth in PC 12020(c)(1)(A) and (B).



CA Penal Code 12020(c)
(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

CA Penal Code 12000
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.
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Last edited by Quiet; 10-30-2008 at 6:12 PM.. Reason: added PC 12000
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Old 10-30-2008, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
CA law defines the .410/.45LC handguns as short barrel shotguns. The barrel having rifling or not does not change it's classification as a SBS in CA.

The Taurus Judge, MIL Inc Thunder Five and Thompson/Center Contender with .410/.45LC barrel all fit the SBS definition laid forth in PC 12020(c)(1)(A) and (B).



CA Penal Code 12020(c)
(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
according to the law then every pistol that cci makes a shotshell for is in fact an illegal sawed off shotgun then
unless there is a definition of shotgun shell i am missing
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2008, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
according to the law then every pistol that cci makes a shotshell for is in fact an illegal sawed off shotgun then
unless there is a definition of shotgun shell i am missing
shotshell does not equal shotgun shell.
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  #9  
Old 10-30-2008, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
shotshell does not equal shotgun shell.

i have a 22 shotgun it is smoothbore and it uses shotshells

is that not a shotgun shell?


weird question
can a 410 shotgun fire a 45 colt shotshell?
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Last edited by bohoki; 10-30-2008 at 6:19 PM..
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Old 10-30-2008, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
according to the law then every pistol that cci makes a shotshell for is in fact an illegal sawed off shotgun then
unless there is a definition of shotgun shell i am missing
Can you buy a .410 shotgun? Yes. Can you buy a 9x19mm, .45ACP, .38 spl or .44 mag shotgun? No.

CCI shotshells are handgun ammo, not shotgun ammo. .410 shotshells are shotgun ammo that some have designed handguns to fire.
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  #11  
Old 10-30-2008, 6:47 PM
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should be outlawed for being an ugly POS.

Last edited by tankerman; 10-30-2008 at 8:48 PM..
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  #12  
Old 10-30-2008, 9:30 PM
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Quote:
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should be outlawed for being an ugly POS.
i kinda like the looks of the long cylnder its like an upscaled naa 22 magnum

hmm that fires shotshells too hmm
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  #13  
Old 10-30-2008, 10:20 PM
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As has been noted already, CCI .45, 9mm. .357 Mag, etc. shotshells are classified as handgun ammunition and not fixed shotgun shells. Becasue of this, any firearm chambered to fire them cannot be considered a shotgun. The Judge is chambered to fire fixed shotgun shell ammunition (in addition to .45 Colt) and is classified as a Short Barreled Shotgun by the State of CA. It sucks as it's a cool little pistol, but that's the way it's been in CA for quite a while now.
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  #14  
Old 10-30-2008, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FortCourageArmory View Post
As has been noted already, CCI .45, 9mm. .357 Mag, etc. shotshells are classified as handgun ammunition and not fixed shotgun shells. Becasue of this, any firearm chambered to fire them cannot be considered a shotgun. The Judge is chambered to fire fixed shotgun shell ammunition (in addition to .45 Colt) and is classified as a Short Barreled Shotgun by the State of CA. It sucks as it's a cool little pistol, but that's the way it's been in CA for quite a while now.

feel free to ignore the smoothbore 22 shotgun
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:13 PM
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16" or 18" barrel?
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  #16  
Old 10-31-2008, 2:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilit View Post
I think it's illegal more because it falls under the AW statue that a shotgun can't have a revolving cylinder more-so than it being a handgun-shotgun. It really is no different than loading a CCI shotshell into any other pistol, but then again, show me any piece of anti-gun legislation that is "common sense."

EDIT:

Revolvig cylinder doesn't matter because the .410 barrel for a T/C contender pistol and .410 derringers are also illegal here.

I really want a .410 derringer too.
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Old 10-31-2008, 7:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
CA law defines the .410/.45LC handguns as short barrel shotguns. The barrel having rifling or not does not change it's classification as a SBS in CA.

The Taurus Judge, MIL Inc Thunder Five and Thompson/Center Contender with .410/.45LC barrel all fit the SBS definition laid forth in PC 12020(c)(1)(A) and (B).



CA Penal Code 12020(c)
(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

CA Penal Code 12000
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

It looks to me as if the key here is having the weapon designed to fire the shotgun shell. What if it were the other way around?

All the weapons listed have extra long cylinders to accommodate the extra length of the shell. They are then "designed or redesigned." Maybe its legal to have/use CCI shotshells, not because they aren't "shotgun shells," but because they are "designed" to fit a normal chamber? So, if a manufacturer were to produce, say, 1 3/4in. shotshells in .410 (IE; shotshells designed to fit a normal chamber), wouldn't they be legal? By the same token, if I were to rig up some short shotshells on my own (saw off the round instead of the barrel), wouldn't that be legal? Or, just stuff some shot into a regular case?

I've seen on the 'net where people have made up their own shotshells. Here's one link to one experiment:

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17809

And another:

http://www.castbullet.com/reload/44shot.htm

As near as I can tell, these guys aren't in our great state, so while the idea works, I'm not sure if this is legal here.

Also, I'm not seeing any reason that small shot must be used. So, I'm not seeing any reason that you couldn't use #4 buck if you wanted a serious social load.

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Old 10-31-2008, 9:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
feel free to ignore the smoothbore 22 shotgun
The cartridge the firearm is designed to fire is the overriding factor here. Your "smoothbore .22 shotgun" is not designed to fire a fixed shotgun shell but .22 LR rimfire ammunition. The fact that you can stuff a .22 LR CCI shotshell into it is not relevant to the discussion. The Judge and all the other pistols that can chamber .410 shotgun shells are classified as Short-Barreled Shotguns. You don't have to like the answer, but you have to obey the law. Get it changed and we'll all be happy.
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  #19  
Old 10-31-2008, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FortCourageArmory View Post
The cartridge the firearm is designed to fire is the overriding factor here. Your "smoothbore .22 shotgun" is not designed to fire a fixed shotgun shell but .22 LR rimfire ammunition. The fact that you can stuff a .22 LR CCI shotshell into it is not relevant to the discussion. The Judge and all the other pistols that can chamber .410 shotgun shells are classified as Short-Barreled Shotguns. You don't have to like the answer, but you have to obey the law. Get it changed and we'll all be happy.

just trying to lay the groundwork for vagueness

being that
1 there is a 22 shotgun and its ammo is shotgun shells
2 it can be fired in a pistol
3 why are all 22 pistols not banned?

i like the idea of making short 410s to be used in 45 colt casull revolvers though make sure and use a disk and a roll crimp
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:48 AM
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This isn't anything new. Many folks roll their own at home including me. You can buy empty shotshell caspules, full capsules or even load 45/70 brass similar to the way 410 brass is loaded.

38 special loaded with #9's are great for snakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulay El Raisuli View Post
I've seen on the 'net where people have made up their own shotshells. Here's one link to one experiment:

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17809

And another:

http://www.castbullet.com/reload/44shot.htm

As near as I can tell, these guys aren't in our great state, so while the idea works, I'm not sure if this is legal here.

Also, I'm not seeing any reason that small shot must be used. So, I'm not seeing any reason that you couldn't use #4 buck if you wanted a serious social load.

The Raisuli
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  #21  
Old 11-01-2008, 8:43 AM
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Default All legal restrictions aside....

It is such an ugly, purposeless revolver that whomever decided to keep it out of California is probably doing us a favor.
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Old 11-01-2008, 1:29 PM
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you can't buy cci's with buckshot loads. glasers would also fall into the same category.
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Old 11-01-2008, 1:46 PM
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Quote:
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you can't buy cci's with buckshot loads. glasers would also fall into the same category.
are you on the dope?
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Old 11-01-2008, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
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you can't buy cci's with buckshot loads. glasers would also fall into the same category.
Yes you can, and other than the effectiveness of Glasers for stopping people, they're very different in function than the shot loads.

Snake oil and snake shot ammo are both perfectly legal in CA.
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