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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 10-25-2008, 10:14 PM
wildcard313 wildcard313 is offline
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Default Gas Piston AR-10?

Is the gas piston something you can add to any AR platform, or is it chambered for .556, or what?
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:30 PM
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I was thinking of doing a AR10 until I heard a gas piston 6.5grendel upper was not too far away.
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  #3  
Old 10-25-2008, 10:51 PM
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Is the gas piston something you can add to any AR platform, or is it chambered for .556, or what?
Ooo, I like the sound of that. Too bad there's less market for AR-10 stuff, it may not come to fruition.
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:52 PM
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M24armorer makes one.
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:15 PM
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I was also interested in a Gas Piston AR-10. I currently have a Gas Piston AR15, and wanted a similar setup on my AR10. From what I understand, it is somewhat pointless on an AR-10 platform assuming that the AR10 is set up as a target rifle (like most are). You just wont have the gunk buildup like an AR15 because most of the time, people with AR-10s aren't shooting hundreds of rounds a day like an AR-15.

From a sales standpoint, it wouldn't make much sense to create and sell a Gas Piston AR-10 system, although I think it would be cool as hell personally.
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:26 PM
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I was also interested in a Gas Piston AR-10. I currently have a Gas Piston AR15, and wanted a similar setup on my AR10. From what I understand, it is somewhat pointless on an AR-10 platform assuming that the AR10 is set up as a target rifle (like most are). You just wont have the gunk buildup like an AR15 because most of the time, people with AR-10s aren't shooting hundreds of rounds a day like an AR-15.

From a sales standpoint, it wouldn't make much sense to create and sell a Gas Piston AR-10 system, although I think it would be cool as hell personally.
The piston system from M24 was developed for his "Stretched" lowers.... .338LM and .408, but they work well with the AR10 platform.
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  #7  
Old 10-25-2008, 11:28 PM
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All the arguments I've heard against GPUs have been "but it isn't necessary." That kind of makes me chuckle a little bit. Who cares if it's necessary? I'm interested because I believe the system is better. It may not be necessary, but is it "necessary" to have two ARs that both shoot 5.56? No! Why do a lot of people have it anyway? Because they want it. It isn't "necessary" to have a car with 300 hp if 80% of the time it's commuting on the freeway at 50 mph. But they still sell Corvettes.
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sierratangofoxtrotunion View Post
All the arguments I've heard against GPUs have been "but it isn't necessary." That kind of makes me chuckle a little bit. Who cares if it's necessary? I'm interested because I believe the system is better. It may not be necessary, but is it "necessary" to have two ARs that both shoot 5.56? No! Why do a lot of people have it anyway? Because they want it. It isn't "necessary" to have a car with 300 hp if 80% of the time it's commuting on the freeway at 50 mph. But they still sell Corvettes.
Agreed. Although I feel the GPU is a superior system, from a practical standpoint; it's an invalid argument to say it "isn't necessary".

I guess we can throw out 200MPH streetbikes or 600HP Dodge Vipers, since they "aren't necessary".
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sierratangofoxtrotunion View Post
All the arguments I've heard against GPUs have been "but it isn't necessary." That kind of makes me chuckle a little bit. Who cares if it's necessary? I'm interested because I believe the system is better. It may not be necessary, but is it "necessary" to have two ARs that both shoot 5.56? No! Why do a lot of people have it anyway? Because they want it. It isn't "necessary" to have a car with 300 hp if 80% of the time it's commuting on the freeway at 50 mph. But they still sell Corvettes.
i totally agree, i found the m4 to be a good weapon with alot of shortcomings. i havent seen a gpu but i think it offers advantges that cant be ignored, while im not saying there isnt an arguement supporting DI i just havent seen one thats more than you dont need it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:03 AM
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My $8 gas tube does the same thing as your $400 gas piston...
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  #11  
Old 10-26-2008, 12:21 AM
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My $8 gas tube does the same thing as your $400 gas piston...
Correct. It's just an exchange of one set of failure points for another - with custom parts that may not be available down the road (every GP kit vendor has a proprietary system with parts not interchanging w/others').
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  #12  
Old 10-26-2008, 10:06 AM
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MILLITIAof1 View Post
I will offer my gpu for some type of "torture test" just to show how suprerior it is to your di system.
If I can get a M4 done, I will pick up on of YOUR setups and run it against another Midlengh upper with no gas piston system. 5 days 2500 rounds....
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:16 AM
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If I can get a M4 done, I will pick up on of YOUR setups and run it against another Midlengh upper with no gas piston system. 5 days 2500 rounds....
5 days? I shot 2000 rounds last weekend within a couple of hours. Still havent cleaned it and the bcg is still wet and clean.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:30 AM
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The round count might a little off there ... But its pistol and rifle.... A little different then going to the range. All feild conditions... Shoot me a Pm of what your prices are for these things.
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  #16  
Old 10-26-2008, 10:37 AM
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Im waiting for LWRC's SABR to come out, well unless Oboma wins then i will pick up a Fulton/DPMS type lower probably...
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  #17  
Old 10-26-2008, 10:39 AM
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GO GO GAS PISTON UPPERS!
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  #18  
Old 10-26-2008, 10:52 AM
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5 days? I shot 2000 rounds last weekend within a couple of hours. Still havent cleaned it and the bcg is still wet and clean.
Most of us are not fighting range wars. We can manage to clean between range sessions.

I understand that for some kind of high volume competitions it might be useful.

But most normal shooters don't shoot "2000 rounds within a couple of hours." I'd like to know what kind of competition you are shooting. Even 3 gunners don't shoot that volume.

The money I spend on an upper, I want to spend on a top end barrel. Not on an unnecessary system that makes cleaning a bit easier. I clean all my guns regularly after each range session so that's not even an issue.

I understand that Addax and any other GP makers might be sponsors, so saying anything negative might be discouraged, but for most people a GP is unnecessary and that money is better spent on items for your upper that actually do make a difference, like a high end barrel.

You are welcome to test your GP upper against my Noveske or Larue. I doubt you are getting sub-MOA groups with factory ammo out of yours for the same amount of money. So enough with the GP is superior BS.

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Old 10-26-2008, 11:03 AM
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Most of us are not fighting range wars. We can manage to clean between range sessions.

I understand that for some kind of high volume competitions it might be useful.

But most normal shooters don't shoot "2000 rounds within a couple of hours." I'd like to know what kind of competition you are shooting. Even 3 gunners don't shoot that volume.

The money I spend on an upper, I want to spend on a top end barrel. Not on an unnecessary system that makes cleaning a bit easier. I clean all my guns regularly after each range session so that's not even an issue.

I understand that Addax and any other GP makers might be sponsors, so saying anything negative might be discouraged, but for most people a GP is unnecessary and that money is better spent on items for your upper that actually do make a difference, like a high end barrel.

You are welcome to test your GP upper against my Noveske or Larue. I doubt you are getting sub-MOA groups with factory ammo out of yours for the same amount of money. So enough with the GP is superior BS.
I shoot that much sometimes. I don't do competitions either.

On the flip side, I shoot that much with my DI, I don't run pistons.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:01 PM
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From a sales standpoint, it wouldn't make much sense to create and sell a Gas Piston AR-10 system, although I think it would be cool as hell personally.
In what way would it be cool? No flames, no bait, nothing - just a straight question from a guy who'd like to know. I do eventually want an AR in .308, though.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by nobs11 View Post
Most of us are not fighting range wars. We can manage to clean between range sessions.

I understand that for some kind of high volume competitions it might be useful.

But most normal shooters don't shoot "2000 rounds within a couple of hours." I'd like to know what kind of competition you are shooting. Even 3 gunners don't shoot that volume.

The money I spend on an upper, I want to spend on a top end barrel. Not on an unnecessary system that makes cleaning a bit easier. I clean all my guns regularly after each range session so that's not even an issue.

I understand that Addax and any other GP makers might be sponsors, so saying anything negative might be discouraged, but for most people a GP is unnecessary and that money is better spent on items for your upper that actually do make a difference, like a high end barrel.

You are welcome to test your GP upper against my Noveske or Larue. I doubt you are getting sub-MOA groups with factory ammo out of yours for the same amount of money. So enough with the GP is superior BS.
When shooting that many rounds in that short a time period a dirty gun is the least of my problems. I'd worry about the barrel over heating before I worry about the internals of my gun.

Provided you allow the gun to cool between strings of fire I'm confident a well built DI gun will shoot that volume without malfunction.

The proof is in the pudding. A op-rod gun will work, but does it work better than a DI gun? The resounding answer is no. People spout the manta of cleaner and cooler gun without really understanding what I means.

Both guns will get dirty that is fact, DI gun just get dirty quicker. But will that dirt affect the functionality of the weapon. NO

If you dont believe me then try it for yourself. Run your DI gun dirty past 3000 rounds and see what happens.

Last edited by J_Rock; 10-26-2008 at 1:02 PM..
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Old 10-26-2008, 5:41 PM
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If that's all you've ever heard, then you haven't read them all

Overhead moving parts will tend to flex the barrel and decrease accuracy. The ARs DI system is actually designed to eliminate this. When you add the piston, you apply additional flex at the front of the barrel. This is more pronounced with longer barreled systems.

Piston systems includes additional moving parts that can fail.

Piston systems apply stresses to the carrier it wasn't designed to take. DI was designed to press directly back on the carrier. Pistons press on the gas key. Some that use longer stroke or free moving piston rods can cause carrier hammering, which can damage the upper and carrier, leading to failures. Well designed piston systems deal with this (special carriers, gas keys, etc.), but not all do. Most still have some small issues they can/should address.

And lastly is the cost. To me this isn't a big deal, but for many people it is. Spending $400 on a gas piston, which has limited usefulness on most ARs that would benefit far more from an upgraded carrier, barrel, trigger, etc.

To me the benefit:liability line only starts to make sense and favor a piston system is in high volume guns when your barrel length drops to 14.5" or less - short carbines. When you get to, say, a 10.5" barrel then it's great, especially in FA.

For an AR10 - which is generally a low volume, high precision rifle - the piston loses its usefulness since accuracy is one of the great strengths of the platform.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sierratangofoxtrotunion View Post
All the arguments I've heard against GPUs have been "but it isn't necessary." That kind of makes me chuckle a little bit. Who cares if it's necessary? I'm interested because I believe the system is better. It may not be necessary, but is it "necessary" to have two ARs that both shoot 5.56? No! Why do a lot of people have it anyway? Because they want it. It isn't "necessary" to have a car with 300 hp if 80% of the time it's commuting on the freeway at 50 mph. But they still sell Corvettes.
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Old 10-26-2008, 6:59 PM
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My .02 from experience with original AR10's (Amnesty reg'd Portuguese NATO AR10) and two semi-auto lower original types (Port. & Sudanese) leads me to believe that in 7.62, a gas piston isn't required for reliable functioning when dirty in either full or semi.

I've never experienced the types of failures in the 7.62 platform as I have in the 5.56.

Plinker is right though, unless you're talking about NFA barrel lengths, or continious full auto fire, a GPU isn't a required improvement on the 5.56 AR platform either.

They are undeniably interesting though.
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Old 10-26-2008, 7:58 PM
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My $8 gas tube does the same thing as your $400 gas piston...
Nah, I don't think so.
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Old 10-26-2008, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by nobs11 View Post
Most of us are not fighting range wars. We can manage to clean between range sessions.

I understand that for some kind of high volume competitions it might be useful.

But most normal shooters don't shoot "2000 rounds within a couple of hours." I'd like to know what kind of competition you are shooting. Even 3 gunners don't shoot that volume.

The money I spend on an upper, I want to spend on a top end barrel. Not on an unnecessary system that makes cleaning a bit easier. I clean all my guns regularly after each range session so that's not even an issue.

I understand that Addax and any other GP makers might be sponsors, so saying anything negative might be discouraged, but for most people a GP is unnecessary and that money is better spent on items for your upper that actually do make a difference, like a high end barrel.

You are welcome to test your GP upper against my Noveske or Larue. I doubt you are getting sub-MOA groups with factory ammo out of yours for the same amount of money. So enough with the GP is superior BS.
Nobs,

I have commented before (and I am sure some can vouch for this), that not every AR owners needs Gas Piston Uppers, but having a high quality Gas Piston Upper being built utilizing high quality AR parts is an Excellent Option for AR owners to have.

In my opinion, If an AR owners is the type that goes to range, shoots a couple hundred rounds and goes home, and performs general maintenance and keeps their AR lubricated and clean, then a Gas Piston Upper is not a necessity.

We are offering an option for AR owners who want a much more reliable AR Upper that utilizes a high quality Gas Piston System from PWS.

I think the DI system is cool in concept since it simplifies the operation of the rifle, but the DI system introduces issues that we have all learned to compensate for to help ensure the AR will function/peform.
These include keeping the AR constantly lubricated and wet, to constant maintenance, to performing SPORTS when the AR jams etc.
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Old 10-26-2008, 8:29 PM
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When shooting that many rounds in that short a time period a dirty gun is the least of my problems. I'd worry about the barrel over heating before I worry about the internals of my gun.

Provided you allow the gun to cool between strings of fire I'm confident a well built DI gun will shoot that volume without malfunction.

The proof is in the pudding. A op-rod gun will work, but does it work better than a DI gun? The resounding answer is no. People spout the manta of cleaner and cooler gun without really understanding what I means.

Both guns will get dirty that is fact, DI gun just get dirty quicker. But will that dirt affect the functionality of the weapon. NO

If you dont believe me then try it for yourself. Run your DI gun dirty past 3000 rounds and see what happens.
I have, and I have experienced jams in several DI uppers by running through allot of rounds in a short period time (over 1000 rounds in each upper within a couple of hours of shooting), since the lubrication will burn off, the carbon and heat will continue to build up in a DI upper, and this can and has in my experience has caused jams.

Our Gas Piston Upper does not get anywhere close to getting as dirty in the upper receiver, or around the bolt carrier, and we don't have to worry about lubricating the upper and bolt and cleaning the upper and bolt to ensure functionality like you do in a DI Upper/Gun.

Why are we advised to keep our AR's lubricated and wet to ensure functionality in a DI Upper/Gun? That is to break down the build up in the upper receiver and around the bolt carrier, so yes, the carbon fouling, dirt whatever you want to call it will affect the DI upper vs. a Gas Piston Upper when you end up shooting allot of rounds.
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Last edited by Addax; 10-26-2008 at 9:01 PM..
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Old 10-26-2008, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wildcard313 View Post
Is the gas piston something you can add to any AR platform, or is it chambered for .556, or what?
Hi Wildcard313,

We currently build brand new Gas Piston Uppers in 5.56, and we are going to be releasing a 6.8SPC and a 6.5 Grendel model very very soon.

We are also testing a 5.45 GPU and when barrels and bolts become more readily available we are going to release an Addax GPU in the caliber as well.

As far as .308 is concerned, we are looking into several design ideas, but nothing is definite on this, since the market for AR10 GPU's is very small, and for the most part, AR10's are used more like target rifles than tactical rifles, and even though the same argument could be made for the 6.8 and 6.5, we have received so many more requests from Civilian, Law Enforcement and Military for GPU's in these calibers vs. .308.

We will keep everyone posted if we end up going down the path of a AR10 .308 GPU.

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 10-26-2008, 9:47 PM
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Both guns will get dirty that is fact, DI gun just get dirty quicker. But will that dirt affect the functionality of the weapon. NO

If you dont believe me then try it for yourself. Run your DI gun dirty past 3000 rounds and see what happens.
Exactly.
I clean my 3gun match AR once a year, usually in january or february.
I put a few drops of oil on the exhaust ports and work it into the carrier at the start of each match.
And this is not your typical over-gassed AR.
This is a 17" rifle gassed upper with JP low-mass carrier and my own low-mass buffer.
Anyone will tell you that lightly-gassed competition AR's need more attention than regular AR's.

I have yet to get it too dirty to function and I have been doing it this way for 3 seasons now.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:12 PM
wildcard313 wildcard313 is offline
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I guess since I started this argument (again) I may as well put in $.02.

Plenty of people run standard DI AR 15s and never have problems. Thats cool. Plenty of people run AR 15s...and have problems. Lots and lots of people if you pay attention. Id rather have a system where those problems are much less likely to happen. Id like to have a system where, god forbid, I could go to the range and shoot tons of rounds, then go back without cleaning and not have it crap out (who hasnt seen the guy at the range who doesnt like to clean his decked out 15 only to have it cough and spit and hack up brass?).

Id like that in .308, so I guess I need to call DSArms and see what they can do for me in a FAL.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:23 PM
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aplinker aplinker is offline
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So this is what I don't understand...

I'm often referred to as a "snob" and someone who recommends certain types/tests/etc. that are unnecessary. Then people tell me M1S, DTI, and every other bottom feeder, mid-level manufacturer, 4140 barrel, commercial *lies* about 5.56 chamber, lack of staking, non-HPT/MPI'd, and (worst of all) carbine gassed upper is "just as good" as every other and that they'd rather save their money.

Next it's all about how unreliable the AR-15 DI gas system is and how it sucks. Buy a gas piston!

How about focusing on buying quality DI mid-lengths for carbines or buying rifles that are built properly?

Much of the perception that ARs can be finnicky comes from poorly built carbines - which are overpressured, have short cycle times and put a lot of stress on the system. Step up to midlength. Buy parts that are tested and built to last.

If you're looking to build a battle rifle, get the FAL. If you want to shoot sub-MOA groups at 800yds, get an AR10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard313 View Post
I guess since I started this argument (again) I may as well put in $.02.

Plenty of people run standard DI AR 15s and never have problems. Thats cool. Plenty of people run AR 15s...and have problems. Lots and lots of people if you pay attention. Id rather have a system where those problems are much less likely to happen. Id like to have a system where, god forbid, I could go to the range and shoot tons of rounds, then go back without cleaning and not have it crap out (who hasnt seen the guy at the range who doesnt like to clean his decked out 15 only to have it cough and spit and hack up brass?).

Id like that in .308, so I guess I need to call DSArms and see what they can do for me in a FAL.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard313 View Post
Plenty of people run standard DI AR 15s and never have problems. Thats cool. Plenty of people run AR 15s...and have problems. Lots and lots of people if you pay attention.
Plenty as-in the vast majority.

You hear about the problems because people ask how to fix them.
You don't hear about the people without problems because they don't need any help.
There are a WHOLE LOT more people without problems than people with problems.
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Old 10-27-2008, 2:05 AM
wildcard313 wildcard313 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Plenty as-in the vast majority.

You hear about the problems because people ask how to fix them.
You don't hear about the people without problems because they don't need any help.
There are a WHOLE LOT more people without problems than people with problems.
I understand that, and agree. I think that the vast majority of people that have had AR 15s built for them are very happy. They go to the range, shoot 100 rounds, go home and do a farely quick cleaning, and they work. The people that are having problems arent maintaning them correctly, or havent built them correctly, or the pieces just arent that good (or dont work well togethor).

I dont really want to help start a flame war, but I think its safe to say, if you want a battle rifle that will work in the worst of conditions, a gas piston or FAL may be the better choice. If you want something that will work well (maybe even better) in the best of the situations, regular old ar 15s are just good enough.
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Old 10-27-2008, 3:20 AM
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I'm assuming that y'all are referring specifically to the Armalite AR10-based design, as opposed to a 308 gas-gun in general. Because if you're simply looking for an AR-style in general, the POF-308 uses a gas-piston. Magpul is also working on their own piston-driven design ... but it might not come to fruition in a timely enough fashion.
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Old 10-27-2008, 7:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard313 View Post
I dont really want to help start a flame war, but I think its safe to say, if you want a battle rifle that will work in the worst of conditions, a gas piston or FAL may be the better choice. If you want something that will work well (maybe even better) in the best of the situations, regular old ar 15s are just good enough.
I'd like to see what you base this opinion on. As said by several people before, people do shoot thousands of rounds out of their DI ARs without any problems. Listen to what these guys are saying. They are not a bunch of AR noobs. People with years of experience shooting the AR think that the GP is unnecessary and worse, might actually hurt performance. The GP system is "fixing" a problem that does not exist. Save that money and buy a quality upper. For the extra 400 or so you spend on a GP, you will have a reliable, accurate AR. Notice how the only people swearing by the GPs are GP manufacturers and people who gave in to the hype and purchased one. No one has agreed to even shoot groups with a GP versus a well made DI with a quality barrel that costs the same.

Last edited by nobs11; 10-27-2008 at 7:59 AM..
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Old 10-27-2008, 8:24 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Rock View Post
My $8 gas tube does the same thing as your $400 gas piston...
i couldn't agree more. cept it take me 10-15 mins to clean my entire are vs the 1+ hours it used to take.

i just got to handle one of the POF 308s... feels decent, though i havent been a fan of the POF piston system, i love the CROSS setup and i wish they would sell just them.
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Old 10-27-2008, 8:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobs11 View Post
Most of us are not fighting range wars. We can manage to clean between range sessions.

I understand that for some kind of high volume competitions it might be useful.

But most normal shooters don't shoot "2000 rounds within a couple of hours." I'd like to know what kind of competition you are shooting. Even 3 gunners don't shoot that volume.

The money I spend on an upper, I want to spend on a top end barrel. Not on an unnecessary system that makes cleaning a bit easier. I clean all my guns regularly after each range session so that's not even an issue.

I understand that Addax and any other GP makers might be sponsors, so saying anything negative might be discouraged, but for most people a GP is unnecessary and that money is better spent on items for your upper that actually do make a difference, like a high end barrel.

You are welcome to test your GP upper against my Noveske or Larue. I doubt you are getting sub-MOA groups with factory ammo out of yours for the same amount of money. So enough with the GP is superior BS.

on a serious note, i get .75 moa with an 18" piston and decent ammo. well let me rephrase... a friend of mine gets it out of my rifle, im not that good of a shot.


i agree its not required, but i love my piston rifle, it feels different when i shoot, a lot more positive. i dont know how to explain it, but it feels different than a DI rifle, it seems to cycle faster or something, but it feels better. i wish i could explain it better. after owning a few DI rifles, i think im gonna stick with the piston setup... if i were building for all out accuracy i would stick with the DI setup as i feel i may have just gotten lucky with my build(honestly). but for a fun gun that i can slap my upper on a happy switch lower... i love my piston.

Last edited by cseabass; 10-27-2008 at 8:32 AM..
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:28 AM
J_Rock J_Rock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Addax View Post
I have, and I have experienced jams in several DI uppers by running through allot of rounds in a short period time (over 1000 rounds in each upper within a couple of hours of shooting), since the lubrication will burn off, the carbon and heat will continue to build up in a DI upper, and this can and has in my experience has caused jams.

Our Gas Piston Upper does not get anywhere close to getting as dirty in the upper receiver, or around the bolt carrier, and we don't have to worry about lubricating the upper and bolt and cleaning the upper and bolt to ensure functionality like you do in a DI Upper/Gun.

Why are we advised to keep our AR's lubricated and wet to ensure functionality in a DI Upper/Gun? That is to break down the build up in the upper receiver and around the bolt carrier, so yes, the carbon fouling, dirt whatever you want to call it will affect the DI upper vs. a Gas Piston Upper when you end up shooting allot of rounds.
You may not have to do that lubing with an op-rod piston gun so I do see your point(to an extent) when using the suppressor on it, compared against a DI gun that's not equipped with a gas regulator. However, it is almost inconceivable that a person could shoot thousands of rounds without having any time to squirt some lube into the carrier via the ejection port, without even having to open up the gun. A well-built AR15 will run 5000 rounds without cleaning, as long as you periodically squirt some lube into it.

I don't know anybody's gun that jams at around 1000 rounds if they lube it during breaks at the range. Do you normally shoot a case of ammo at a range outing? And if you do, are you saying you don't have time to spritz a squirt of lube into the carrier ports during that day?
And there is no military action which would ever require the gun to do anything near that nature of uninterrrupted firing, so the point is moot from a military standpoint.

Now, yes I realize that the expected response here will probably be, "Well with this piston gun, I don't have to do any lubing to it".
And, if not having to do any lubing at all to it, is what floats your boat, then more power to you.(I dont recommend using any machine where metal rubs against metal without any lube,yes even an AK)

Tell me, do you recommend running your PWS system without lube or with lube?

Last edited by J_Rock; 10-27-2008 at 10:35 AM..
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  #38  
Old 10-27-2008, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard313 View Post
I guess since I started this argument (again) I may as well put in $.02.

Plenty of people run standard DI AR 15s and never have problems. Thats cool. Plenty of people run AR 15s...and have problems. Lots and lots of people if you pay attention. Id rather have a system where those problems are much less likely to happen. Id like to have a system where, god forbid, I could go to the range and shoot tons of rounds, then go back without cleaning and not have it crap out (who hasnt seen the guy at the range who doesnt like to clean his decked out 15 only to have it cough and spit and hack up brass?).

Id like that in .308, so I guess I need to call DSArms and see what they can do for me in a FAL.
Actually you have MORE points of failure in a op-rod piston because of the increased complexity.

-bent op rods
-sheered carrier key fasteners
-carrier tilt

vs

-dirty gun
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  #39  
Old 10-27-2008, 11:47 AM
trinydex trinydex is offline
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i think we should all stop talkin' about this...
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:11 PM
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MILLITIAof1 MILLITIAof1 is offline
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i think we should all stop talkin' about this...
I agree
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