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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 10-07-2008, 5:48 PM
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Default Attn Gun Dealers! Do not sell lowers to people under 21 Years Old.

So the new 4473 thread was talking about how recievers will now be "other firearms". You cannot sell other firearms to people under the age of 21. I contacted my ATF agent and asker her about this and here was her reply.

Quote:
The question about other is question 18 on the form which is a check box. Type of firearm(s) to be transferred (check or mark all that apply): Check all boxes that apply. “Other” refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifle or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms. If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are “firearms” by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a) (3) (b). 18 USC Section 922(b) (1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a “firearm other than a shotgun or rifle,” it can not be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note that that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip firearms. They are not “pistols or revolvers” under Section 923 (g) (3) (a).

I hope this answers your question but it looks like they have to be 21. The form is a little more user friendly but not that much.
Of course this is my agent's intepretation and I haven't looked at the code yet. Lets disect this and see if this is indeed legit. If so, make sure you are not buying or selling firearm receivers to anyone under the age of 21.
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2008, 5:51 PM
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Thank god I got mine before this!
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  #3  
Old 10-07-2008, 5:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
So the new 4473 thread was talking about how recievers will now be "other firearms". You cannot sell other firearms to people under the age of 21. I contacted my ATF agent and asker her about this and here was her reply.

Of course this is my agent's intepretation and I haven't looked at the code yet. Lets disect this and see if this is indeed legit. If so, make sure you are not buying or selling firearm receivers to anyone under the age of 21.
That seems very sneaky. If frames aren't pistols, or AOWs, where is the legal verbiage that mandates a minimum age of 21 for purchase? Was this part of the Brady Bill?

Am i missing something?
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Old 10-07-2008, 5:55 PM
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If its not a rifle and is considered other then there should be no reason I couldn't make make a pistol out of one am I correct?
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Old 10-07-2008, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopi View Post
That seems very sneaky. If frames aren't pistols, or AOWs, where is the legal verbiage that mandates a minimum age of 21 for purchase? Was this part of the Brady Bill?

Am i missing something?
IIRC, the way the code works is that you must be 21+ to be able to receive from a dealer ANY firearm. Then, they add in an exemption that you only need to be 18+ for rifles or shotguns. Those are specifically exempted. That is why you can't buy a PGO shotgun until you are 21. Because it doesn't meet the fed definition of a shotgun since it doesn't have a shoulder stock.
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Old 10-07-2008, 6:07 PM
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Thank god I got mine before this!
+1
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Old 10-07-2008, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
If its not a rifle and is considered other then there should be no reason I couldn't make make a pistol out of one am I correct?
Thats the reason I started this thread, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=124598 . Federally you'd be fine to buy a stripped receiver, have it marked as "other firearm", and build it up as a pistol. The question becomes "DOes a "longgun" DROS prevent you from building it up as a pistol?".
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  #8  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopi View Post
That seems very sneaky. If frames aren't pistols, or AOWs, where is the legal verbiage that mandates a minimum age of 21 for purchase? Was this part of the Brady Bill?Am I missing something?
Um, yes - let's think about this.

GCA '68 says that you need to be at least 21 to purchase firearms, with an exemption for rifles and shotguns to be purchased by those at least 18.

This is why Mossberg Cruiser pistol-grip-only 12 gauge long arms can't be sold (unless a stock were in package) to those in 18...21 age range.
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:26 PM
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If I understand you correctly, someone's going to make a fortune selling cheap pro forma stocks
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  #10  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:26 PM
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This is a slimy backdoor way to yank AR's out of the hands of people. Pure and simple, no other reason to it.
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  #11  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
If I understand you correctly, someone's going to make a fortune selling cheap pro forma stocks
At that point, you have to be careful that you don't trigger "manufacturer" status and need an 07 FFL when you attach the stock to the lower.
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  #12  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
At that point, you have to be careful that you don't trigger "manufacturer" status and need an 07 FFL when you attach the stock to the lower.
Leaving gun industry politics at the door, how about CavArm one-piece lowers?
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
At that point, you have to be careful that you don't trigger "manufacturer" status and need an 07 FFL when you attach the stock to the lower.
Wouldn't a 'manufacturing' concern apply across the board to building ARs, regardless of age (whereas transfer is very much age-dependent)?
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin2 View Post
This is a slimy backdoor way to yank AR's out of the hands of people. Pure and simple, no other reason to it.
Has nothing to do with ARs. Applies even to a bare Daisy 22LR action.

And it's nothing new, it's been in place since 1968: the issue of PG-only 'shotguns' like Mossberg Cruisers was treated in late 1998/early 1999 BATF newsletters.
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Old 10-07-2008, 6:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
Wouldn't a 'manufacturing' concern apply across the board to building ARs, regardless of age (whereas transfer is very much age-dependent)?
Yes, FFLs turning receivers into operating rifles can only do so many (50 a year? 50 total?) before mfg tax kicks in and/or requires mfg FFL too.
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Old 10-07-2008, 6:51 PM
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Do you guys think the 21 - 18 yr olds will have their lowers confiscated? I figure that would be a lot of work. Anyhow, too bad for you youngsters.
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by qbertquartz2 View Post
Do you guys think the 21 - 18 yr olds will have their lowers confiscated? I figure that would be a lot of work. Anyhow, too bad for you youngsters.
unless im mistaken, this only effects the dros from ffl to 18+ but under 21 group. doesnt effect ownership, or prviate party transfer.

if so then all that needs to happen is a 21+ aged person can buy lowers, dros them, build them into rifles and then ppt them to the effected age group. am i thinking correctly?
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:01 PM
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So does that mean we can now order 1911 frames legally? They're no longer pistols...
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:09 PM
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Isn't this unconstitutional given heller?

Given that firearm ownership is now a constitutional INDIVIDUAL right, and that at age 18 you are a legal adult, it seems to me that this form would be denying legal adult citizens of their constitutional right.
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:13 PM
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what dros selection do they use for other firearms?

last time i checked ther was only pistol or longarm is there a new dros firearm option?
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:17 PM
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what dros selection do they use for other firearms?

last time i checked ther was only pistol or longarm is there a new dros firearm option?
Yes, starting this October
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
Yes, starting this October
Really, CA is updating the DROS to match the 4473? cite?
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
So the new 4473 thread was talking about how recievers will now be "other firearms". You cannot sell other firearms to people under the age of 21. I contacted my ATF agent and asker her about this and here was her reply.

Of course this is my agent's intepretation and I haven't looked at the code yet. Lets disect this and see if this is indeed legit. If so, make sure you are not buying or selling firearm receivers to anyone under the age of 21.
SO NOW I CAN GET MY MA DUCE UNDER OTHER BECAUSE ITS A CREW SERVE!
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Has nothing to do with ARs. Applies even to a bare Daisy 22LR action.
You know and I know that the vast majority of noticeable traffic in bare receivers which the ATF and the anti 2A crowd who controlls them wants to affect is in AR and AK platforms.
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:44 PM
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I was referring to the new 4473 and assumed the poster I was replying to was asking about it.
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Really, CA is updating the DROS to match the 4473? cite?
I think Bohoki was speaking inclusively of all of the paperwork to buy a gun through a dealer in CA when using the term "DROS", without noticing that "DROS" reflects only the CA side of things while the thread is about the Federal side.

Nope - on second thought, changed my mind. Looking through the DROS manual, the screen cap shows only
  • handgun
  • long gun
  • peace officer
  • c&r
  • private transfer
  • loan
  • pawn
so B probably was asking exactly what he meant - and I have no idea how an AOW is transferred through DROS.
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Old 10-07-2008, 7:58 PM
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First, lets discredit the idea that the ATF purposely changed their form to go after OLLs. That is simply not true. The ATF could care less about California and their stupid laws. As bill pointed out, this has always been the case, just some people might not have realized it.

If you want to discuss whether you can turn a long gun receiver into a pistol, lets discuss it here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...74#post1596374
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Old 10-07-2008, 8:09 PM
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Well...
Will California think that since your bare receiver was not entered into THEIR system as a pistol, it isn't a pistol?
Doesn't this make a head scratcher for bare receiver purchases?
Theoretically, doesn't this mean that if you buy a BARE POF 308 receiver and DROS it as a "bare receiver" you could then build it into a pistol per BATF regs? I know that as long as a stock was never attached and it was never "booked out" as a rifle by anobody it legal to do so in other states... Curious how this will be effected in CA? Theoretically, if it applies to a bare (never built and booked out as a "bare receiver") AR type receiver, then it should also cover other "bare receivers" that have never been booked out as either a rifle or a pistol... I wonder how Springfield books out its bare receivers it sells as pistols?
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Old 10-07-2008, 8:10 PM
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So this is something new for CA in Oct?? Man this really sucks! I'm not worried about cuz i'm 26 but for our "young Calgunners"
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Old 10-07-2008, 8:15 PM
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So this is something new for CA in Oct?? Man this really sucks! I'm not worried about cuz i'm 26 but for our "young Calgunners"
No, this is something new nationwide in Oct-Nov. This thread, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=124598 , has the ATF notice and a sample copy of the new 4473.
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Old 10-07-2008, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin2 View Post
You know and I know that the vast majority of noticeable traffic in bare receivers which the ATF and the anti 2A crowd who controlls them wants to affect is in AR and AK platforms.
This is true and I've been dealing w/ these longer than most and the ATF has been trying to figure out ways on dealing w/ them....

Any other thinkin is being naive......

The ATF doesn't really care specifically about CALI......
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  #32  
Old 10-07-2008, 8:58 PM
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NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

This has to be some sick joke right??? Just when I thought I can actually buy the pieces and start building an OLL AR.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:47 PM
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NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

This has to be some sick joke right??? Just when I thought I can actually buy the pieces and start building an OLL AR.
Shoulda got one sooner, I'll PPT you mine for $500...
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:53 PM
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Doesn't say anything about getting one complete right?
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:00 PM
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Doesn't say anything about getting one complete right?
What do you mean by complete? The lower or the whole rifle? Cuz if its the complete lower then im still in luck to make my AR! If its not, then im forced to buy a complete rifle
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=460

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  #36  
Old 10-07-2008, 11:07 PM
xxG3xx xxG3xx is offline
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this sucks..i already had my AR lower prior to this but i wont be able to buy another lower for a year it looks like....sorry guys that couldn't get one in time
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  #37  
Old 10-07-2008, 11:17 PM
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Fantasma Fantasma is offline
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Ahhh! Nooooooooooooo..... This is typical, government HATE GAME BS! now i have to wait 2 years to make my OLL i should have bought it man, i should have... WOW this will definitely be hurting all the "Young Calgunners" that where hoping to make one....

So no Lowers can be sold to anyone under 21? because it is classified in other and that must be 21+?

Well all is not lost, i could just have the lower assembled and have an intermediary FFL assemble the lower and install the upper then send it to my FFL as a complete rifle. WELL ALL IS NOT LOST~! they just made it harder for me....
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  #38  
Old 10-07-2008, 11:28 PM
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God Bless The Mauser God Bless The Mauser is offline
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they just made it harder for me
That is they're entire point behind this.
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  #39  
Old 10-07-2008, 11:30 PM
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Does the other status of the receivers stay on file like a pistol or will it go away like a rifle?
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  #40  
Old 10-07-2008, 11:41 PM
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tombinghamthegreat tombinghamthegreat is offline
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Darn i miss the deadline...so i can't buy lowers legally, only complete rifles? What is the purpose of this besides to harass a group of people that tends to not vote? Any chance these unfair lower/handgun age 21 laws be defeated with incorportation?
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The same way they enforce all the rest of the BS laws. Only criminals are exempt, while the honest obey.
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Sometimes I think the function of Calguns is half to refute bad info from gunshops and half to refute bad info from DOJ.
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