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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 10-06-2008, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by blackrazor View Post
LOL! Talking about "legislative intent" on calguns.net?!!? You have to be kidding me!
True. It's obvious that the legislative understanding of things relating to guns resolves to "Guns bad". It's prudent to operate as if the worst possible result was what they meant, and back up through what they actually wrote.

We actually pay these people to be in Sacramento?
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  #42  
Old 10-06-2008, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jacques View Post
So, who is going to be the first FFL to start selling "Hi cap" magazines?
Wait until after Heller is incorporated, then the question is more likely to be answered.
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  #43  
Old 10-06-2008, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jpach View Post
Ok, it seems yall are swinging back and forth with your interpretations on the aforementioned written laws. So how many believe that it is indeed legal for FFLs with highcap mag permits to SELL to the average Joe. Note how Im not asking who thinks its a good idea for them to do so, so please give answers relevent to my question and list exactly why you believe you are correct. No "Hater" comments allowed.
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Seriously... your post is asking for a consensus conclusion when it hasn't been finalized. A little CG-101 - discussions like this have been going on for a while, including at the beginning of the OLL movement. If you would like the cliff notes final version, just wait for when another sticky and vendors start selling them.
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  #44  
Old 10-06-2008, 3:09 PM
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In that other thread, Gene Hoffman said we would have to wait a few more months. That was in January.
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  #45  
Old 10-06-2008, 3:13 PM
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He was off by about two weeks.
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  #46  
Old 10-06-2008, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by nobody_special View Post
He was off by about two weeks.
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  #47  
Old 10-06-2008, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman View Post
In that other thread, Gene Hoffman said we would have to wait a few more months. That was in January.
I think there are other more pressing matters at hand.

I'd say the large capacity magazine ban isn't as high up as, say, AW, CCW, handgun certification, etc.
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  #48  
Old 10-06-2008, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
I think there are other more pressing matters at hand.

I'd say the large capacity magazine ban isn't as high up as, say, AW, CCW, handgun certification, etc.
Considering that most of the time we're talking about standard factory capacity instead of large, meaning greater than the original factory capacity, I can see why. Repeating some nonsense that anything over 10 rounds is "large" is like waving to your 5 year old's imaginary friend. Don't encourage the fools.
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Last edited by yellowfin; 10-06-2008 at 5:26 PM..
  #49  
Old 10-06-2008, 5:29 PM
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Can you be prosecuted today for an act that is no longer illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Most people would find "admitting to illegally acquiring" something somewhat disquieting.

In this case, it would have been a violation of Federal law, one which has now sunset, and again it would merely be possible evidence of an illegal transfer - possession was not a crime under the LCAFD restriction. Any alleged illegal (under Federal law) transfer would have been in or prior to 1999. 1999 to 2008 is 9 years - is there a statute of limitations on such things?
  #50  
Old 10-06-2008, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Can you be prosecuted today for an act that is no longer illegal?
I think you can, if you committed the act while it was illegal, and no intervening legislation has placed a boundary on prosecution for it. That's why I wondered about a limitation; I don't know the answer.

I do think a federal prosecutor who might bring that up probably has too much time on his/her hands. I would hope that all the possible government/LE agency LCAFD kingpins of crime have been discovered by now.

But, while it might look a little squirrely, alleged violation of a sunset Federal law 8 or more years after the fact doesn't seem like it would be very important to CA prosecutors, who are not interested in simple possession anyway. If they could identify the source of many large-capacity magazines as Joe Librarian, the Father Christmas of standard capacity mags and all-around scofflaw, they might pursue that.
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  #51  
Old 10-06-2008, 5:52 PM
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so if it is not illegal for the sale of or by armored car business of "large capacity*" and the word "buy" is not in the law

where is the crime in buying from armored car businesses




*california codified term for a magazine holding 11 or more cartridges
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  #52  
Old 10-06-2008, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
so if it is not illegal for the sale of or by armored car business of "large capacity*" and the word "buy" is not in the law

where is the crime in buying from armored car businesses

*california codified term for a magazine holding 11 or more cartridges
Don't forget the hyphen in large-capacity...

As to your question, see post 50.
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  #53  
Old 10-06-2008, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
WRONG. DON'T DO THIS.

Someone offering or exposing for sale the hicap (in other than one of the few exempt manners) would make the transaction illegal.

There are no such things as "legal half-transactions".
I've asked this question a couple times before and I believe it went unanswered both times.

Could the buyer in some way be an accessory to the crime?
  #54  
Old 10-06-2008, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowfin2 View Post
Considering that most of the time we're talking about standard factory capacity instead of large, meaning greater than the original factory capacity, I can see why. Repeating some nonsense that anything over 10 rounds is "large" is like waving to your 5 year old's imaginary friend. Don't encourage the fools.
I'm sorry, but I use the codified term when having a discussion of the penal code, just as I would for assault weapon.

Anything else is just posturing - on both sides.

You work with the written words in the law. It eliminates confusion and prevents silly hyperbole.
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  #55  
Old 10-06-2008, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
*california codified term for a magazine holding 11 or more cartridges
If they codified salty as a term for describing the flavor of root beer or contained an illustration of a species of pig covered in feathers, would it be valid?
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  #56  
Old 10-06-2008, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowfin2 View Post
Considering that most of the time we're talking about standard factory capacity instead of large, meaning greater than the original factory capacity, I can see why. Repeating some nonsense that anything over 10 rounds is "large" is like waving to your 5 year old's imaginary friend. Don't encourage the fools.
"Large capacity" is the language found in the statute. That's why we use it. Some "standard capacity" mags, like a Glock 17 standard capacity mag, are also large capacity. Other standard capacity mags, like a 1911 mag, are not large capacity.

Likewise, I would say that I own an "assault weapon", not because it has ever been used to assault anyone, but because that's how the statute describes it. If that statute ever goes away (let us hope) then I will say that I don't own an assault weapon, but rather I own a self-defense rifle, a practical rifle, a homeland security rifle, or just a plain old rifle.
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  #57  
Old 10-06-2008, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin2 View Post
If they codified salty as a term for describing the flavor of root beer or contained an illustration of a species of pig covered in feathers, would it be valid?
In a court of law, yes.
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  #58  
Old 10-06-2008, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
I think there are other more pressing matters at hand.

I'd say the large capacity magazine ban isn't as high up as, say, AW, CCW, handgun certification, etc.
The AW and "large-capacity" magazine were all features of SB23 if I'm not mistaken. One more thing I'm questioning with the "large-capacity" magazines is that a NFA trust or corporation in CA would or would not be allowed to purchase large-capacity magazines in the manner that NFA trusts or corporations in CA can in that a corporation or trust is not a person or individual by definition?
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  #59  
Old 10-06-2008, 10:19 PM
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1. You can not be prosecuted for a federal law no longer on the books.

2. Armored Vehicle businesses can sell large-capacity magazines to anyone. If you'll read the provision very closely all constructions of the penal code make sense and it says clearly "The sale of, ... any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state." That's about as clear a construction as you can get.

3. The FFL exception isn't internally consistent. It leads to this construction, "The ... purchase of any large-capacity magazine to .. a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071."

#2 can fly, #3 can't. However, an FFL can certainly buy any magazine he wants and can sell them to Armored Vehicle services.

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  #60  
Old 10-06-2008, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
1. You can not be prosecuted for a federal law no longer on the books.

2. Armored Vehicle businesses can sell large-capacity magazines to anyone. If you'll read the provision very closely all constructions of the penal code make sense and it says clearly "The sale of, ... any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state." That's about as clear a construction as you can get.

3. The FFL exception isn't internally consistent. It leads to this construction, "The ... purchase of any large-capacity magazine to .. a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071."

#2 can fly, #3 can't. However, an FFL can certainly buy any magazine he wants and can sell them to Armored Vehicle services.

-Gene
What?

Quote:
(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity
magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section
12071.
"The sale...of any large capacity magazine...by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071."

Are you saying Gene that the statement I just made is false?

What about "The...purchase of any large-capacity magazine...by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071."?

What about "The sale...of any large capacity magazine...to a person licensed pursuant to Sectin 12071."?

Three of the four intepretations are valid, does that mean the one invalid makes it all void?

I contend not. I believe it is perfectly legally for persons licensed pursuant to Section 12071, that would be FFL dealers, to lawfully buy and sell large-capacity magazines.

So why don't I do it? I have enough on my plate right now and with Heller and incorporation coming up, I would rather be patient a little while longer.

It does help me feel better about so many companies actually manufacturing 11 round magazines because they don't check and if I accidently sell it to one of you guys. As long as you are not using it in a semi-automatic, fixed magazine rifle, no crime was committed.
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  #61  
Old 10-07-2008, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
What?
So why don't I do it? I have enough on my plate right now and with Heller and incorporation coming up, I would rather be patient a little while longer.

i think we have been patient long enough geez we have been living with this california mag ban almost as long as the federal crime bill ban lasted

are we going to have to wait till the 10th anniversary to find out that ffls could have been selling "large caps" to anybody all along?
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  #62  
Old 10-07-2008, 10:46 AM
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Sorry if this is threadjacking but, is placing 11+ rounds of 9mm in a CA-legal 10-rnd .40 mag considered manufacturing a new mag if no permanent modifications have been made, only feedlip bending at most? Is placing ammo other than what is labeled on the mag illegal?
  #63  
Old 10-07-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
Sorry if this is threadjacking but, is placing 11+ rounds of 9mm in a CA-legal 10-rnd .40 mag considered manufacturing a new mag if no permanent modifications have been made, only feedlip bending at most? Is placing ammo other than what is labeled on the mag illegal?
IIRC from a previous thread, it is not considered manufacturing a new magazine because you have not changed anything. It is prudent to own the firearm that matches the magazine but not necessary.

I'm sure others will chime in to correct me if I am wrong.

David F.
  #64  
Old 10-07-2008, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 40caldeserteagle View Post
IIRC from a previous thread, it is not considered manufacturing a new magazine because you have not changed anything. It is prudent to own the firearm that matches the magazine but not necessary.

I'm sure others will chime in to correct me if I am wrong.

David F.
good and good...

the only issue with bending a feed lip is that ANY modification you do can not keep it from being usable in the gun for which it was intended.
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  #65  
Old 10-07-2008, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
good and good...

the only issue with bending a feed lip is that ANY modification you do can not keep it from being usable in the gun for which it was intended.
So it seems safer to make CA prove a high cap mag was illegally in the state than proving a mag was not modified into a new hi-cap.
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Old 10-07-2008, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
So it seems safer to make CA prove a high cap mag was illegally in the state than proving a mag was not modified into a new hi-cap.
I don't think so. Grab a snap cap of caliber A, load it into gun A, do a function check. Do the same for caliber B. Of course this is only my opinion. By the way, a 10 round 40S&W mag will hold about 14 rounds of 9mm with only the feedlips being slightly tweaked.

David F.
  #67  
Old 10-07-2008, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 69Mach1 View Post
You can have high cap mags marked "LEO only" if you used those bodies to rebuild/repair your CA preban high caps. What I'm saying is that a proprietary high cap mag designed during the Federal ban could not have been owned by a CA resident after 1994. Just like any new design made after 2000 could not also be obtained.

With regard to modifying a preban high cap mag to fit and function in another firearm, it must also continue to fit and function in the original gun it was designed for.
So hypothetically, If I was shooting in the desert and I happened to step on a FN Five-seven hi cap magazine, would it be illegal to keep it? I didn't purchase nor offer for sale of the mag, I simply found it. Does it being a new design made after Y2K disqualify it from ownership?
  #68  
Old 10-07-2008, 9:11 PM
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This thread just follows the same sorry debate any other "Hi-Cap" mag thread has on this forum.

Fact, you can not be convicted of something that is legal.

Fact, possession of large capacity magazines is legal.

Fact, no one has EVER been convicted for possession of a large capacity magazine.

Fact, no one has EVER been convicted of anything having to do with a large capacity magazine in the state of California.

I'm sure I'll get flamed in some sort of way for posting this, but really people, lets put this one and every other one to bed. Every single large capacity, high capacity, hi-cap, anything having to do with a mag over 10 rounds thread that's ever been started on this forum has ended the same way. This one will end exactly the same way.

Does anyone here realize that your OLR has a better chance of landing you in jail than a hi-cap mag, yet there are fewer people here against OLL ownership than there are against hi-cap mags?
  #69  
Old 10-07-2008, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN View Post
Fact, no one has EVER been convicted of anything having to do with a large capacity magazine in the state of California.
FALSE, there is a news story you can find on this board that is sourced about a guy who did get charged for a crime regarding large capacity magazines (plus having an unregistered AW).
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  #70  
Old 10-07-2008, 9:20 PM
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FALSE, there is a news story you can find on this board that is sourced about a guy who did get charged for a crime regarding large capacity magazines (plus having an unregistered AW).
Must have been VERY recent (or found recently) because for the last year people have been digging for a case and could never find one.

There was a rumor than someone tried to illegally import a large capacity magazine but was never charged. That's the last I ever heard.
  #71  
Old 10-07-2008, 10:45 PM
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A couple thoughts on buying or finding 'large capacity' mags:

While buying them is not illegal, selling is. This means they would have to prove you conspired to help someone sell them, which might not be too difficult... Also, the mags would be evidence of a crime, and you probably wouldn't get to keep them, even if you weren't convicted. So it would be unwise to admit to buying the magazines that were sold illegally.

Finding magazines may also prove tricky. Maybe Librarian can help me out here, but isn't it required by law to report property that is found before keeping it? If you find a bag full of cash in a field, do you simply get to keep it? My understanding - again, I have no statutes/codes to cite - is that you report the property found and the local LE holds it for x days. After that time it is unclaimed property and the finder gets to keep it. So, saying you found the mags is possibly a bad idea.

Further, if you were to turn them in to the local LE agency, would they be violating the statute if they gave you the mags at the end of the 'unclaimed property' waiting period? My guess is that it would be, so you wouldn't get the mags in the end.
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  #72  
Old 10-08-2008, 4:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CA_Libertarian View Post
A couple thoughts on buying or finding 'large capacity' mags:

While buying them is not illegal, selling is.
Not from an FFL or armored car company.
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  #73  
Old 11-05-2008, 5:57 AM
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Please forgive another dumbass question, but after reading the flowchart and doing several searches on this subject.

Ok, I know that its not illegal to posses/use Hi Capacity Mags as so well stated at the beginning of this thread.

My question is, once a high capacity >10rds. magazine is attached to my AK with a bullet button or similar type Magazine Lock (that would make the weapon legal with a =/< 10rd. magazine) the WEAPON becomes illegal (an assault weapon).. Correct?

So, if I go to the Range with my pistol grip AK, with my Mag Lock, and no attached mags, and in possession of 30rd. mags, I am legal. Right? But once I attach that 30rd. mag. I can be prosecuted for violation of p.c. 12276.1(a)(2)? (assault weapon)

On the flip side, I have a standard off the shelf Saiga 7.62 with nothing. I believe they call it "Ranch Style" (no pistol grip, no forward pistol grip, etc. that would make it subject to P.C. 12276.1(a) ). I can attach a 30rd. mag at the range and not be in violation and plink to my hearts content?

Thanks,
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  #74  
Old 11-05-2008, 6:31 AM
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Anyone hear of someone getting popped for having an illegal magazine...that wasn't committing a real crime?
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Old 11-05-2008, 7:29 AM
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No, not an illegal mag, but Assault Weapon possession, yes. If my assumption is correct, the mag makes the gun an Assault Weapon.

Lou
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Old 11-05-2008, 7:34 AM
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Originally Posted by groovielou View Post
Please forgive another dumbass question, but after reading the flowchart and doing several searches on this subject.

Ok, I know that its not illegal to posses/use Hi Capacity Mags as so well stated at the beginning of this thread.

My question is, once a high capacity >10rds. magazine is attached to my AK with a bullet button or similar type Magazine Lock (that would make the weapon legal with a =/< 10rd. magazine) the WEAPON becomes illegal (an assault weapon).. Correct?

So, if I go to the Range with my pistol grip AK, with my Mag Lock, and no attached mags, and in possession of 30rd. mags, I am legal. Right? But once I attach that 30rd. mag. I can be prosecuted for violation of p.c. 12276.1(a)(2)? (assault weapon)

On the flip side, I have a standard off the shelf Saiga 7.62 with nothing. I believe they call it "Ranch Style" (no pistol grip, no forward pistol grip, etc. that would make it subject to P.C. 12276.1(a) ). I can attach a 30rd. mag at the range and not be in violation and plink to my hearts content?

Thanks,
Lou
wouldnt that be violating the sect 922r but not anything california
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Old 11-05-2008, 9:43 AM
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Originally Posted by groovielou View Post
No, not an illegal mag, but Assault Weapon possession, yes. If my assumption is correct, the mag makes the gun an Assault Weapon.

Lou
YEP - and let's face it, no one is out there "re-manufacturing" hi-caps for use in their Beretta 92f or other handguns etc. They are predominantly using "hi-caps" in OLL's. and THAT makes them AW's. That is a felony! (or at least a charge that starts out as a felony.)
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Old 11-05-2008, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by djandj View Post
YEP - and let's face it, no one is out there "re-manufacturing" hi-caps for use in their Beretta 92f or other handguns etc. They are predominantly using "hi-caps" in OLL's. and THAT makes them AW's. That is a felony! (or at least a charge that starts out as a felony.)
Not true.

If the OLL is a 'featureless' build (i.e, MonsterMan grip, no FH, plain A2 stock). Those builds can use any legally-owned detachable hicap mags. Only "nondetachable mag builds" requiring a locked mag (a la BB, Prince 50, etc.) need to have mag capacity at 10rds or less.

Also, many people are indeed legitimately repairing their mags. Feedlips get dinged, amateurs bend them back trying to fix 'em and further screw 'em up, etc. And mag tubes sometimes split down the back weld seam.

Many folks had milsurp 20 & 30rd M16/AR15 mags from way way back when (1970s). Those mag bodies may have seen the end of their lifespan - since they were designed somewhat as 'replaceable commodities' as opposed to valued possessions requiring care
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Last edited by bwiese; 11-05-2008 at 9:55 AM..
  #79  
Old 11-05-2008, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djandj View Post
YEP - and let's face it, no one is out there "re-manufacturing" hi-caps for use in their Beretta 92f or other handguns etc. They are predominantly using "hi-caps" in OLL's. and THAT makes them AW's. That is a felony! (or at least a charge that starts out as a felony.)
Hi-caps used in OLL's doesn't automatically make them an assult weapon.

If the OLL is in a "non-detachable" configuration THEN hi-caps use would make it an assult weapon.

If the OLL is configured without "evil features" then it is perfectly legal to use hi-cap mags.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:29 AM
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So if I'm to understand this correctly, getting a 10+ round mag for my Glock 17 makes it an "assault weapon"?
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