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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #401  
Old 11-06-2009, 5:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodey View Post
What about a legally owned 250 linked belt for a 1919 a4 BMG semi auto? Can you shoot it with the 250 belt or do yo have to break it down into 10 rounders?
You can shoot it in a 1919A4. Don't go below 11 rounds though, so that you can legally put it back together.
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  #402  
Old 11-06-2009, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
You can shoot it in a 1919A4. Don't go below 11 rounds though, so that you can legally put it back together.
Kind of hard with disindigrading links
  #403  
Old 11-06-2009, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodey View Post
Kind of hard with disindigrading links
No it's not. I do it all the time. Are you familiar with 1919s and ammo linked for them. I'm not talking about my 250 round cloth belts. I'm talking about links. They are very easy to reuse.
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  #404  
Old 11-06-2009, 6:36 PM
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"Don't go below 11 rounds though" This is the part I'm talking about. I know you can re-use & rebiuld the belt, but as you shoot you wind up with single links.
  #405  
Old 11-06-2009, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by woodey View Post
"Don't go below 11 rounds though" This is the part I'm talking about. I know you can re-use & rebiuld the belt, but as you shoot you wind up with single links.
I keep a couple of inert rounds about 15 rounds from the end of each belt. It's pretty east to do. But, with ammo prices so high, I prefer 10 round belts for every day shooting.
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  #406  
Old 11-06-2009, 8:40 PM
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O, how I get it. You just don't shoot the whole belt.
  #407  
Old 11-07-2009, 6:59 AM
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Originally Posted by woodey View Post
O, how I get it. You just don't shoot the whole belt.
Yep, only 235 rounds out of 250. Then, I re-fi the house and buy enough ammo to rebuild the belt again. J/K, I load my own. But, I've stil got some of that <$0.10/round .308 stuff lying around from 5 or six years ago. So, I still can afford to put fresh stuff through it when I'm to lazy to load.
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  #408  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:37 AM
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I have a question about exemptions. It seems peace officers in the state of california are exempt from this law. However, federal agents are not defined as peace officers in the state of California. Does this mean an individual in the FBI, DEA or ATF is not exempt from the law?

By this I mean that an FFL with hi-cap permits can legally sell to a peace officer of this state because peace officers are exempt. So am I to assume an FFL would be committing a crime by selling hi-cap magazines to a federal agent, who is not defined as a peace officer?
  #409  
Old 11-07-2009, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by We Are Apocalypse View Post
I have a question about exemptions. It seems peace officers in the state of california are exempt from this law. However, federal agents are not defined as peace officers in the state of California. Does this mean an individual in the FBI, DEA or ATF is not exempt from the law?

By this I mean that an FFL with hi-cap permits can legally sell to a peace officer of this state because peace officers are exempt. So am I to assume an FFL would be committing a crime by selling hi-cap magazines to a federal agent, who is not defined as a peace officer?
I suspect the exception (b)(19)
Quote:
(19)The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
would be invoked, considering an individual officer as a representative of his/her agency.
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  #410  
Old 11-10-2009, 4:35 PM
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It's so sad we need to play these games with law enforcement. It all stems from a crazy liberal legislature, then officers jumping thru hoops trying to interpret the crazy laws their handed.
  #411  
Old 11-26-2009, 3:18 PM
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Default magpul pmags

this means then that magpul pmags probably shouldn't be owned as they were developed (I'm assuming) after 2000. therefore there's no way anybody could have legally owned them in CA before the ban.
am I correct here?
  #412  
Old 11-26-2009, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by nnphan View Post
this means then that magpul pmags probably shouldn't be owned as they were developed (I'm assuming) after 2000. therefore there's no way anybody could have legally owned them in CA before the ban.
am I correct here?
If one is to rebuild an existing standard capacity magazine with PMAG parts, yes you can legally own them.
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  #413  
Old 11-27-2009, 6:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
To repeat: Possession/use of a large-capacity magazine by an individual is not a crime, no matter how you acquired it.
.
So hypothetically, lets say that an individual turned POST year 2000, it would be legal for them to own a 100 round AK drum? Even though it would have been impossible for said person to purchase it pre -2000 ( and assuming it was made pre 2000 ) ? Could said person be charged/convicted of any crime, as it is evident that the drum HAD to have come into the individuals possesion through illegal manners? Sorry if this was answer before
  #414  
Old 11-27-2009, 7:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
So hypothetically
It is legal for anyone to posses a 100rd AK drum. Even if it was it acquired after 2000 there is a three-year statue of limitation.

Could they be charged?

Sure, but only for a violation set fourth in 12020.

So the DA would need to prove importation, manufacture, sale, exposing for sale, giving or lending.
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  #415  
Old 11-27-2009, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
as it is evident that the drum HAD to have come into the individuals possesion through illegal manners? Sorry if this was answer before
not if they purchased it, the seller broke the law, if they found it no foul,
can't be charged with a crime if no law was broken, well you can, but you may have a case
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  #416  
Old 11-27-2009, 9:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
Even if it was it acquired after 2000 there is a three-year statue of limitation.
Can you explain this? Link to PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
So the DA would need to prove importation, manufacture, sale, exposing for sale, giving or lending.
This would be relatively easy though, wouldnt it? Because there is no way that drum came into persons posession without said person breaking the law, correct? They could not have purchased it pre 2000 since they were underage, so the only way to get it would have been to purchase, manufacture, or being 'lent' it.

Also, were hi cap mags legal in CA pre - 2000? or were they banned in 1989
  #417  
Old 11-27-2009, 9:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
This would be relatively easy though, wouldnt it? Because there is no way that drum came into persons posession without said person breaking the law, correct? They could not have purchased it pre 2000 since they were underage, so the only way to get it would have been to purchase, manufacture, or being 'lent' it.
says who? There was no PC that prohibited a minor from purchasing or possessing large-capacity magazine before Jan 1, 2000.


Quote:
Also, were hi cap mags legal in CA pre - 2000? or were they banned in 1989
magazines weren't regulated until 2000.

Quote:
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
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  #418  
Old 11-27-2009, 9:45 PM
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All just seems so weird, basically all of us can go to out of state and bring in a ton of hi cap's and they would never be able to prove we did anything illegal
  #419  
Old 11-27-2009, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
All just seems so weird, basically all of us can go to out of state and bring in a ton of hi cap's and they would never be able to prove we did anything illegal
No! "We" can't do that because, it would be illegal. None of us here will advocate breaking the law or condone illegal behavior.
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  #420  
Old 11-27-2009, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
All just seems so weird, basically all of us can go to out of state and bring in a ton of hi cap's and they would never be able to prove we did anything illegal
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
No! "We" can't do that because, it would be illegal. None of us here will advocate breaking the law or condone illegal behavior.
... but if by your comment you mean you have observed that the law is generally unenforceable, foolish, and a waste of the legislature's (and everybody else's) time, we certainly agree with that.
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  #421  
Old 11-27-2009, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
... but if by your comment you mean you have observed that the law is generally unenforceable, foolish, and a waste of the legislature's (and everybody else's) time, we certainly agree with that.
Agreed!
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  #422  
Old 11-27-2009, 10:43 PM
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I am speaking hypothetically. I know that I and (hopefully) everyone here would never break any of these silly laws. I'm just trying to get a grip on how the law operates when dealing with hi caps mags in CA. Thanks for the input so far fellas
  #423  
Old 11-27-2009, 10:48 PM
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wow, great thread! very in depth. the only place i was confused was if you were trying to say that using our old hi-caps in new guns is illegal or just not advised. My kel-tec su-16 takes standard AR-15/M16 mags of which i have several hi-caps....it's a featureless rifle, but it didn't exist before the ban...i can't find anything that says it's illegal since the gun was manufactured to accept these mags, but i've been sceptical for the reason that the gun didn't exist when i bought the mags.
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  #424  
Old 11-27-2009, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by IrishPirate View Post
wow, great thread! very in depth. the only place i was confused was if you were trying to say that using our old hi-caps in new guns is illegal or just not advised. My kel-tec su-16 takes standard AR-15/M16 mags of which i have several hi-caps....it's a featureless rifle, but it didn't exist before the ban...i can't find anything that says it's illegal since the gun was manufactured to accept these mags, but i've been sceptical for the reason that the gun didn't exist when i bought the mags.
Perfectly legal! The only time +10 round mags should not be used are in centerfire, fixed mag, long guns and any fixed mag handgun.
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  #425  
Old 11-28-2009, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
Can you explain this? Link to PC?
Sure. PC 799 and the few following sections govern how long you can be prosecuted after said crime is committed.

PC 801 is what applies in most 12020 violations.

Quote:
PC 799. Prosecution for an offense punishable by death or by
imprisonment in the state prison for life or for life without the
possibility of parole, or for the embezzlement of public money, may
be commenced at any time.
This section shall apply in any case in which the defendant was a
minor at the time of the commission of the offense and the
prosecuting attorney could have petitioned the court for a fitness
hearing pursuant to Section 707 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.

800. Except as provided in Section 799, prosecution for an offense
punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for eight years or
more shall be commenced within six years after commission of the
offense.

801. Except as provided in Sections 799 and 800, prosecution for an
offense punishable by imprisonment in the state prison shall be
commenced within three years after commission of the offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Perfectly legal! The only time +10 round mags should not be used are in semiautomatic centerfire, fixed mag, long guns rifles and any fixed mag handgun.
Corrected.
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Last edited by lorax3; 11-28-2009 at 1:17 PM..
  #426  
Old 11-28-2009, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
He would only be in violation if he put a magazine greater than 10rd's capacity in the AR with the bullet button.

Possession of the magazines is perfectly legal.
Again a ridiculous law. What the heck is the purpose of that?
  #427  
Old 11-28-2009, 3:32 PM
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So if you're out at some community shoot on BLM land (or whatever) and some guy is nice enough to give you a bunch of high caps that he doesn't need anymore, then you might as well keep them? Receiving them isn't illegal, correct? And now that you have them, possessing and using them isn't illegal, correct?
And if you don't know the guy, how would you even tell the police who he was if you were ever questioned about it?
Not that I advocate anyone giving anyone else high caps, as the giving is illegal.
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Old 11-28-2009, 4:50 PM
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i didnt know giving hi caps was illegal. thats messed up. my question is without and original receipt how could you prove a mag to be pre ban?
  #429  
Old 11-28-2009, 4:57 PM
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I'm guessing also the MAG has to be made pre- 2000?
  #430  
Old 11-28-2009, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
i didnt know giving hi caps was illegal. thats messed up. my question is without and original receipt how could you prove a mag to be pre ban?
You don't have to. It's not illegal to possess a large-capacity magazine. If someone wants to charge you with a crime, it would be up to them to figure out what crime that might be, and if the age of the mag were an issue, to prove the age/date of acquisition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
I'm guessing also the MAG has to be made pre- 2000?
Ideally - but since very few mags are dated, and it's legal to rebuild a pre-2000 mag with post-2000 parts, how would they know?

Gotta go back and read the first post in this thread - all these things were addressed there, and on the Calguns Foundation Wiki.

All together, this whole issue from an enforcement angle is just a tempest in a teapot. Relax. Don't bring any new large-cap mags into CA until we can kill the law.
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Last edited by Librarian; 11-28-2009 at 5:34 PM..
  #431  
Old 11-28-2009, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER
Perfectly legal! The only time +10 round mags should not be used are in semiautomatic centerfire, fixed mag, rifles and any fixed mag handgun.

Corrected.
I stand corrected! Thanks.
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  #432  
Old 11-28-2009, 8:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
I'm guessing also the MAG has to be made pre- 2000?
Pretty sure it is legal keep and use a mag that you find even if it was built after the ban.
  #433  
Old 11-28-2009, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RLW View Post
Pretty sure it is legal keep and use a mag that you find even if it was built after the ban.
That is some hair splitting I wouldn't risk my freedom on. "Your honor the law doesn't prohibiting the finding of magazines."

Judge, "Are you serious? Go to jail!"

You are better off saying nothing. Or worst case scenario, tell them you bought them from a person licensed pursuant to section 12071. There is clearly an exemption for that.

Also note giving and lending are prohibited. So if you have someone give them to you, then they are on the hook. You might be on the hook for conspiracy. No thanks.
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  #434  
Old 11-29-2009, 3:46 AM
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There is one exception that is not listed. It is not meant to encourage people to break the law; I simply point it out as a possibility that someone could legally possess a high capacity magazine for a gun made after 2000.

In the wiki-esque first post, the OP states that if a new model gun were introduced after 2000, one can not legally have a high capacity magazine for the gun because it was produced after the ban. This is not true.

High capacity magazine importation is a misdemeanor and as such, they have 3 years to file charges and after such time, a person is immune from prosecution. As was mentioned before, high capacity magazines are legal for use and possession regardless of how they were obtained.

Today is 11-28-2009. Let's say that a person drove to Nevada and illegally imported 100 high capacity magazines into this state on 11-27-2006. He put those magazines, along with their receipt, in a safe and did not touch them until today. He could then take his magazines out of the safe and use them freely without fear. If he were questioned about the origin of his magazines he could be completely honest and tell the truth "I obtained them illegally on 11-27-2009, here is my receipt that proves it" and it would serve to protect him from prosecution. It proves when he obtained the magazines, and though illegal at the time, he is immune from prosecution thanks to the 3 year time limit.
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  #435  
Old 11-29-2009, 11:52 AM
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Do note the precise phrasing of the original post is
Quote:
If the gun (and its matching magazines) did not exist before January 1, 2000, you shouldn't have large-capacity magazines for it now
Didn't say it was illegal, but followed up with a brief discussion later that such possession would be hard to explain.
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  #436  
Old 11-29-2009, 12:54 PM
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I read your original ppost and just wanted to clarify one thing. If you owned high cap mags prior to 2000 and later built an OLL could you use the high caps mags in the new OLL? I know the bullet button has to be applied.
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Old 11-29-2009, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by POINTMANDDT View Post
I read your original ppost and just wanted to clarify one thing. If you owned high cap mags prior to 2000 and later built an OLL could you use the high caps mags in the new OLL? I know the bullet button has to be applied.
Missed this in that first post somehow:
Quote:
Note that it is not prohibited to

* own a large-capacity magazine
* possess a large-capacity magazine
* use a large-capacity magazine, in whatever gun*
* repair a legally possessed large-capacity magazine
(and, necessarily, to acquire the parts to make the repair --
remember it only makes sense to buy parts kits for existing
legally-possessed large-capacity magazines)

(* Old magazine, new-ish magazine, old gun, new gun - all irrelevant; remember also the 10-round limit on fixed magazine OLL, a different law.)
ETA 'only makes sense' does not translate to 'must otherwise be illegal'; there is no 'constructive possession' law for magazine parts, but that's not something I would do, myself.
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Last edited by Librarian; 11-29-2009 at 1:05 PM..
  #438  
Old 11-29-2009, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by POINTMANDDT View Post
If you owned high cap mags prior to 2000 and later built an OLL could you use the high caps mags in the new OLL? I know the bullet button has to be applied.
There are a few conflicting issues here.

Even if the magazine was/is legally owned another restriction in 12276.1 PC may prevent you from using it in some configurations. This has nothing to do with the legality of the magazine, but rather certain weapon configurations. See below.

A bullet button makes the rifle a fixed magazine rifle, thereby limiting it to ten rounds.

If you wanted to use your large-capacity magazines in an AR type weapon it would need to have a detachable magazine. Since it had a detachable magazine it could not have any prohibited features.

Hence the term 'featureless' which refers to a detachable magazine rifle with no banned features pursuant to 12276.1
(For the record I strongly dislike 'featureless' as it implies one only needs no features. I can see someone having a 'featureless' rifle and since they wanted to be extra safe they use a bullet button. They assume they can use large-capacity magazines because their rifle is 'featureless'.


Quote:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall
also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
Long story short. If you are using a bullet button on a semi-automatic centerfire rifle or any pistol you are limited to ten rounds.
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Last edited by lorax3; 11-29-2009 at 1:10 PM..
  #439  
Old 11-29-2009, 1:15 PM
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If I am able to obtain a hi cap mag and it is over 10 years old I am not breaking any laws correct.
  #440  
Old 11-29-2009, 1:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan8888 View Post
If I am able to obtain a hi cap mag and it is over 10 years old I am not breaking any laws correct.
The age of the magazine is not relevant. If you manufactured, caused to be manufactured, imported, kept or sale, exposed for sale, gave, or lent any 'large-capacity magazine' after 2000 that is a crime punishable by up to one year in jail or in a state prison.

If I imported a 10 year old large-capacity magazines yesterday it would be illegal.

If I imported a 10 year old large-capacity magazines five years ago, it would have been illegal but I would be safe from prosecution due to the statute of limitations.
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Last edited by lorax3; 11-29-2009 at 1:27 PM..
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