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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 05-19-2016, 3:18 PM
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The County has just indicated that they will be seeking a Rehearing and/or Rehearing En Banc.
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  #82  
Old 05-19-2016, 3:20 PM
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it goes en banc to determine if it needs to get sent back to the lower court, which could refuse to honor the ruling which could lead back to the 9th, and if we win there, en banc again...


But courts are good, everything's fine...

*none of this should be taken as criticism of Gene, Don Kilmer, or the cal guns team...
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  #83  
Old 05-19-2016, 3:59 PM
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But courts are good, everything's fine...

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  #84  
Old 05-19-2016, 4:58 PM
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gotta love it, they have unlimited budgets to keep fighting this until the 2A supporters run out of money and give up by default.
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  #85  
Old 05-19-2016, 6:37 PM
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This is a substantial legal victory, and only on calguns would this decision be seen by anyone as a loss!

The fact the county is seeking rehearing is no surprise, and reflects the reality that in terms of land use law this opinion demolishes the County.

They wrote a law to redline gun shops, selling guns is constitutionally protected, and now they are in serious legal jeopardy as is every town, city and county that passed the same ridiculous ordinance - which is quite a few.

If the constitution and 2 Am continues to be enforced by some honest courts and wise judges, then freedom is safe.

This really was a great win, a great opinion, and I am very proud that so many judges across the country are writing scholarly, pro-freedom opinions that will age well over the next decades.

I dont think many grasp how close "gun control" is to being finished under the weight of federal constitutional law.
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  #86  
Old 05-19-2016, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
This is a substantial legal victory, and only on calguns would this decision be seen by anyone as a loss!

The fact the county is seeking rehearing is no surprise, and reflects the reality that in terms of land use law this opinion demolishes the County.

They wrote a law to redline gun shops, selling guns is constitutionally protected, and now they are in serious legal jeopardy as is every town, city and county that passed the same ridiculous ordinance - which is quite a few.

If the constitution and 2 Am continues to be enforced by some honest courts and wise judges, then freedom is safe.

This really was a great win, a great opinion, and I am very proud that so many judges across the country are writing scholarly, pro-freedom opinions that will age well over the next decades.

I dont think many grasp how close "gun control" is to being finished under the weight of federal constitutional law.
Lol.

Man, I have to get really loaded and read this. Thank you cal guns, you provide massive entertainment.
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  #87  
Old 05-19-2016, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
I love how the county wants to make claims that gun stores attract crime. Which is absurd.

If we're going to effectively ban businesses that attract crime shouldn't places like bars and liquor stores be first on the list?
I believe that has been tried. The result was....not expected by the "progressives" who championed it.
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  #88  
Old 05-19-2016, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post
The County has just indicated that they will be seeking a Rehearing and/or Rehearing En Banc.
Why am I not surprised?

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Originally Posted by thedrickel View Post
Where's the party at?
Rather than time for a celebration in San Leandro, it turns out it's just time for another sandwich and a nap....

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Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
This is a substantial legal victory, and only on calguns would this decision be seen by anyone as a loss!
Funny, but I seem to have missed the post where someone said this decision was a loss. Can you quote it for me and anyone who may have missed it?
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  #89  
Old 05-20-2016, 1:52 AM
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Trump will appoint one sort of judge.
Hillary, the opposite for the most part.
And yet some people on Calguns will stay home or vote for Hillary.
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  #90  
Old 05-20-2016, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
This is a substantial legal victory, and only on calguns would this decision be seen by anyone as a loss!

The fact the county is seeking rehearing is no surprise, and reflects the reality that in terms of land use law this opinion demolishes the County.

They wrote a law to redline gun shops, selling guns is constitutionally protected, and now they are in serious legal jeopardy as is every town, city and county that passed the same ridiculous ordinance - which is quite a few.

If the constitution and 2 Am continues to be enforced by some honest courts and wise judges, then freedom is safe.

This really was a great win, a great opinion, and I am very proud that so many judges across the country are writing scholarly, pro-freedom opinions that will age well over the next decades.

I dont think many grasp how close "gun control" is to being finished under the weight of federal constitutional law.
Pretty sure that only works as long as the "scholarly, pro-freedom opinion" isn't overridden by some judge or justice higher up the food chain than the one that penned the original decision. Which seems to either happen or be attempted with alarming frequency. If it stands, then yes, it's great - but we don't even seem to get to enjoy our victories while they're still victories - quite often it's stayed pending appeal...
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  #91  
Old 05-20-2016, 6:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post
The County has just indicated that they will be seeking a Rehearing and/or Rehearing En Banc.
Given the procedural posture of the case, and the strong policy in favor of the final judgment rule, I don't see this one being granted, unless the County is merely seeking clarification of the panel decision.
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  #92  
Old 05-20-2016, 7:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiskey_Sauer View Post
Given the procedural posture of the case, and the strong policy in favor of the final judgment rule, I don't see this one being granted, unless the County is merely seeking clarification of the panel decision.
If they do grant en banc, may I introduce you to the predictions of the prophet KCbrown who foresaw such an outcome?
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  #93  
Old 05-20-2016, 7:28 AM
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If they do grant en banc, may I introduce you to the predictions of the prophet KCbrown who foresaw such an outcome?
No, thanks. I already have this: sadtrombone.com
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  #94  
Old 05-20-2016, 8:08 AM
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Time to FOIA (or equivalent) the number of times police in ALCO have been called to bars, liquor stores, grocery stores, theaters, etc, and run the number on them compared to how many times police have been called to the gun stores. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

This going en banc was inevitable, as the game is to run the clock and/or wallet out until one side gives up. Keep up the good fight.
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  #95  
Old 05-20-2016, 8:28 AM
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Originally Posted by smn View Post
Time to FOIA (or equivalent) the number of times police in ALCO have been called to bars, liquor stores, grocery stores, theaters, etc, and run the number on them compared to how many times police have been called to the gun stores. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

This going en banc was inevitable, as the game is to run the clock and/or wallet out until one side gives up. Keep up the good fight.
The big issue there is that gov't basically has unlimited funds in their wallet to resist the overturn of this garbage. And when they do get slapped for fees or whatnot else, it comes out of the public's money, not out of the personal pockets of the people that created said law, ordinance, etc.

What really needs to happen is for people to start being hit personally with section 1983 suits - and for the courts to be real about enforcing it. USSC has said it's a fundamental, individual right. We have some of these politicians on record stating that their intent is to infringe or that they don't give a rip about the constitution. That means their intent is to deprive people of rights and they should lose any qualified immunity they might have because it doesn't cover deliberate violations of rights. Any other legislator present at the time this statement was made by one of those idiots and happened to vote yes should also lose their immunity and be charged with collusion and conspiracy to deny rights.

If we could be lucky enough to find a judge willing to set that precedent in a ruling, their own personal money and property would be on the line in a judgment against them. Take away a few politicians houses and pensions to pay for the costs of the prevailing party and I guarantee these shenanigans at least slow down.
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  #96  
Old 05-20-2016, 8:32 AM
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^^^so true!
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  #97  
Old 05-20-2016, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ironpegasus View Post
What really needs to happen is for people to start being hit personally with section 1983 suits - and for the courts to be real about enforcing it. USSC has said it's a fundamental, individual right. We have some of these politicians on record stating that their intent is to infringe or that they don't give a rip about the constitution. That means their intent is to deprive people of rights and they should lose any qualified immunity they might have because it doesn't cover deliberate violations of rights. Any other legislator present at the time this statement was made by one of those idiots and happened to vote yes should also lose their immunity and be charged with collusion and conspiracy to deny rights.

If we could be lucky enough to find a judge willing to set that precedent in a ruling, their own personal money and property would be on the line in a judgment against them. Take away a few politicians houses and pensions to pay for the costs of the prevailing party and I guarantee these shenanigans at least slow down.
Given the limits of legislative immunity, what you are advocating is virtually impossible to achieve.

What might be possible, however, is to sponsor a bill that states that any member of the Legislature who offers or sponsors a gun control bill must post a personal surety bond to cover the expenses of attorneys' fees in the event of an adverse attorneys' fees ruling resulting from a successful challenge of the law. Even if the Legislature covered the cost of the premium, that would still, at least in theory, make legislators to have some skin in the game for the stuff they advance.

Any R. legislator game to sponsor such a bill?
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  #98  
Old 05-20-2016, 8:39 AM
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Not just gun laws but all LAWS!
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  #99  
Old 05-20-2016, 11:15 AM
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Despite the County's caterwauling, we shall meet, on May 27, at Drakes to hoist delicious fermented beverages.

Just for fun, has there even been ONE pro-liberty/Pro-gun lawsuit that we've won that HASN'T had an en banc request?
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  #100  
Old 05-20-2016, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgatodeacero View Post
This is a substantial legal victory, and only on calguns would this decision be seen by anyone as a loss!
...
I dont think many grasp how close "gun control" is to being finished under the weight of federal constitutional law.
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Lol.
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Funny, but I seem to have missed the post where someone said this decision was a loss. Can you quote it for me and anyone who may have missed it?
A bit of optimism and more global perspective about where gun control stands nationally is quite refreshing.

Sure nobody said "it's a loss" explicitly, but dancing around "it's as good as a loss," which many posts imply, is just pessimism in the face of a legal victory. Yes, we've seen Peruta and are still waiting and, yes, we've seen all sorts of shenanigans, but we should reserve pessimism for when negative decisions actually happen.
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  #101  
Old 05-20-2016, 12:25 PM
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The concern I have is that there currently are gun stores within ALCO, and clearly the county will point to them to show the court that there are areas that satisfy their zoning requirements. It could be enough to sway the judge hearing the case. (this is not sensitive info).

Where the county could be in trouble is if those existing gun shops are in violation of the 500 foot zoning ordinance, or if they received some sort of variance/exception.

If that is the case, and truly no brick and mortar firearms dealer is located 500 feet from disqualifying buildings then, there's a VERY strong likelihood of wining on the merits.

-Cee
They obviously received a variance or were grandfathered in - wouldn't you say?

Our side introduced GIS evidence that showed no new location could pass their criteria. That and the fact that they CHANGED the way they told plaintiff distance would be measured, plus the public statements by Everytown, are evidence that their is INTENT to outlaw, certainly any new businesses, by using zoning. You don't really have to prove intent - the fact that they showed end result uncovered the total lack of tailoring to fit any legit government purpose. You're also not allowed to say "gun stores = bad".

I'd like to send a copy to the Pleasant Hill City Council. Their ordinance will be among the first to go if this gets dealt with properly on remand.
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  #102  
Old 05-20-2016, 12:43 PM
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A bit of optimism and more global perspective about where gun control stands nationally is quite refreshing.

Sure nobody said "it's a loss" explicitly, but dancing around "it's as good as a loss," which many posts imply, is just pessimism in the face of a legal victory. Yes, we've seen Peruta and are still waiting and, yes, we've seen all sorts of shenanigans, but we should reserve pessimism for when negative decisions actually happen.
Reread elgato's post, the entire thing, the one I laughed at.


I wasn't laughing at the victory for this case, but at elgato's comment.

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  #103  
Old 05-21-2016, 7:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
A bit of optimism and more global perspective about where gun control stands nationally is quite refreshing.

Sure nobody said "it's a loss" explicitly, but dancing around "it's as good as a loss," which many posts imply, is just pessimism in the face of a legal victory. Yes, we've seen Peruta and are still waiting and, yes, we've seen all sorts of shenanigans, but we should reserve pessimism for when negative decisions actually happen.
BGOS ..... Battered Gun Owners Syndrome

Completely understandable. Can't say it's not warrented, at least in CA, given the current (and long-standing) climate. Still, it must be discouraged lest it lead to an abandonment of all hope.
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  #104  
Old 05-21-2016, 11:43 AM
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Default Congrats Don Kilmer

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Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post
I know your signature has some variation of "IANAL" - but 4 years is enough time. Are you volunteering?

Anyway I'm not quite yet.

And thanks for the kind words posted earlier regarding assessments of the early stages of public interest litigation. We had some unique obstacles to overcome in this case, but it is in a much better posture now.
And thank you for the hard work defending our freedoms.
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  #105  
Old 05-21-2016, 11:46 PM
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So when would this case see any real impact if it actually went in our favor? When I say "real impact", I mean as in a new gun store can now open in Alameda County. Would it be like another 10 year Nordic case or would we see results sooner?

I know it's too early to tell but I really have no idea and was hoping to hear from someone that knows how this stuff works? Would it be another 8-10 years or 1-2 years or what?

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  #106  
Old 05-22-2016, 12:00 AM
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I vote for the 8-10 year window, again, absent a Supreme Court decision that can be used as a trump over foot dragging and other kinds of court and government resistance.
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Old 05-23-2016, 3:16 PM
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Like all legal 2A victories in this state, it is that glimmer of hope that keeps us going; even with knowing all too well that this will get tied up in legal procedural limbo for many years, and then shelved for many more while one side or the other waits on a favorable SCOTUS majority.

It is a chess game that the constitution can never win. No government agency is held accountable for violating 2nd amendment rights. They cherry pick the laws they want to follow and disregard the rest, much like a common criminal casually going about their day.

We have had many such victories over the last decade, and have witnessed the growing trend of local governments ignoring the courts without fear of recourse. We often forget than these judges are no less a politician than Obama or Boxer. They are political appointees who will tow the party line and return favors with the same frequency as a slime-ball politician.

Too many on this forum exert way too much energy trying to make sense of a system that makes no sense. Too many hours wasted attempting to quote law and apply the rules that YOU have to live by to a class of people who have made themselves above the law; even above the laws that they themselves pass.

You can call this a victory in the sense that the 9th has ruled in the favor of the 2nd amendment more than once recently; this is a miracle really. But I fear that this is only a moral victory and not one we will ever see tangible benefits from.
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  #108  
Old 05-23-2016, 4:34 PM
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Default En Banc Brief Schedule

Alameda County has requested until June 30, 2016 to file their petition for rehearing or rehearing en banc. Today the court granted that request. If the defendant in this case was the federal government, they would get the extra time anyway, that is one of the reasons we did not oppose the request.

Check back here for updates.
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  #109  
Old 05-23-2016, 4:47 PM
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Are you guys entitled to attorney fees for winning this 12b6 appeal? If you are can you post your fees motion. I used your district court fee motion in Brandon's case as a template a few times now.
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  #110  
Old 05-23-2016, 5:43 PM
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Are you guys entitled to attorney fees for winning this 12b6 appeal? If you are can you post your fees motion. I used your district court fee motion in Brandon's case as a template a few times now.
No. The decision has to be final before prevailing party status is determined.
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If civic virtu does not reside in the people - no constitution, no bill of rights, no legislative body and no court will be able to preserve our liberties.

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Old 05-25-2016, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ironpegasus View Post
What really needs to happen is for people to start being hit personally with section 1983 suits - and for the courts to be real about enforcing it. USSC has said it's a fundamental, individual right. We have some of these politicians on record stating that their intent is to infringe or that they don't give a rip about the constitution. That means their intent is to deprive people of rights and they should lose any qualified immunity they might have because it doesn't cover deliberate violations of rights. Any other legislator present at the time this statement was made by one of those idiots and happened to vote yes should also lose their immunity and be charged with collusion and conspiracy to deny rights.
If you know anyone even attempting to do this, let me know where to send my hard earned $$.
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Old 05-25-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lex Arma View Post
Alameda County has requested until June 30, 2016 to file their petition for rehearing or rehearing en banc. Today the court granted that request. If the defendant in this case was the federal government, they would get the extra time anyway, that is one of the reasons we did not oppose the request.

Check back here for updates.
Curious. If you guys did oppose the request, what then?
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  #113  
Old 05-25-2016, 7:15 PM
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Curious. If you guys did oppose the request, what then?
I won't discuss litigation decisions on a public forum, except to say that extensions of time are routine in these circumstances. It is futile to oppose them, so we didn't oppose the request. We will oppose the petition.
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  #114  
Old 05-25-2016, 7:26 PM
lowimpactuser lowimpactuser is offline
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I won't discuss litigation decisions on a public forum, except to say that extensions of time are routine in these circumstances. It is futile to oppose them, so we didn't oppose the request. We will oppose the petition.
As an angry constituent who doesn't want my money spent on this, where do we direct our calls and letters?
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  #115  
Old 05-25-2016, 7:42 PM
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As an angry constituent who doesn't want my money spent on this, where do we direct our calls and letters?
The County of Alameda and its Board of Supervisors are the defendants. Be polite, calm and rational, but you do have the right to contact your local government to object to spending tax dollars on the subversion of your fundamental rights.
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Unconsciously borrowed from: "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." Judge Learned Hand

NONE of my posts on this website are legal advice.
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Last edited by Lex Arma; 05-26-2016 at 10:14 AM.. Reason: Syntax
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  #116  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:02 PM
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REMINDER!!

Drakes Barrel House @ 5ish today. I'll be wearing a Reyn Spooner, shorts and flip-flops.

1933 Davis Street, Building 177
San Leandro, CA 94577

It's in the corner between Walmart and Sports Authority (which is having a going out of business 30% off sale).

Lock your valuables up. The parking lot is a little sketchy. Don't buy any "sealed in box" TVs from anyone in the lot.

See y'all there!
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  #117  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:25 PM
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The concern I have is that there currently are gun stores within ALCO, and clearly the county will point to them to show the court that there are areas that satisfy their zoning requirements. It could be enough to sway the judge hearing the case. (this is not sensitive info).

Where the county could be in trouble is if those existing gun shops are in violation of the 500 foot zoning ordinance, or if they received some sort of variance/exception.
None of the existing ALCO based gun stores could re-open in their present location and there may have been one exemption given to a re-start/re-license. It's a tough set of facts for ALCO.
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Given all of that, do you think there is any chance Alameda might just decide to settle? Change the ordinace, or grant the store is variance?
Settling would be smart so they will not do it.
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REMINDER!!

Drakes Barrel House @ 5ish today. I'll be wearing a Reyn Spooner, shorts and flip-flops.
See everyone there. I'm debating between boating over or Tesla-ing over...

-Gene
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  #118  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:54 PM
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See everyone there. I'm debating between boating over or Tesla-ing over...

-Gene
This isn't your tesla?

Oh, that's right, yours is blue.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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  #119  
Old 05-27-2016, 2:21 PM
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See everyone there. I'm debating between boating over or Tesla-ing over...

-Gene
CalGunner + Boat = tragic accident.
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  #120  
Old 05-27-2016, 2:32 PM
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CalGunner + Boat = tragic accident.
Actually, that's happened already.

But I'll let Mr. Hoffman tell the story.
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