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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-04-2008, 2:33 PM
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Default Gun Safes, Gun Locks, California and Federal Law

There are TWO sets of laws to satisfy, California and Federal.

For long guns, either a gun safe (as attested to by the Gun Safe or Lock Box Ownership Affidavit) or a gun lock will suffice - see DOJ's page Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale.

As things stand in September, 2008, the gun safe/Affidavit doesn't work (comfortably, for the FFL) for hand gun purchases, because for hand guns, the Feds complicated things with the "CHILD SAFETY LOCK ACT OF 2005", now 18 USC 922(z)
Quote:
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922
§ 922. Unlawful acts
...
(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—
(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.

(34) The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—
(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;
(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or
(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.
As things now stand, FFLs have very little guidance on how to implement this; what has come from BATFE is essentially "sell the buyer a lock".

However, recent info from the 2008 Shotshow is posted in a BATFE FAQ.
Quote:
E. CHILD SAFETY LOCK ACT OF 2005

(Q1): What is the purpose of the Child Safety Lock Act?

(A1): The stated purposes of the Child Safety Lock Act (CSLA) are as follows:

1. To promote the safe storage and use of handguns by consumers;
2. To prevent unauthorized persons, including children, from gaining access to or use of a handgun;
3. To avoid hindering industry from supplying firearms to law-abiding citizens for all lawful purposes, including hunting, self-defense, collecting, and competitive or recreational shooting.

(Q2): What qualifies as a secure gun storage or safety device?

(A2): The term “secure gun storage or safety device” is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(34) as follows:

1. a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;
2. a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or
3. a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.

Most commercially marketed handgun safety locks or devices fit within the statutory definition. ATF does not consider the use of zip ties, rope, or string sufficient to satisfy the definition set forth in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(34).

(Q3): When must secure gun storage or a safety device be provided and are there any exceptions?

(A3): Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(z), a secure gun storage or safety device is required with the sale, delivery, or transfer of a handgun to a nonlicensee. This provision does not apply to the transfer of handguns to any Federal firearms licensee, nor does it apply to the following:

1.
1. The handgun’s manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States, a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State; or
2. The handgun’s transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed by an entity referred to in paragraph (a) for law enforcement purposes (whether on or off duty);
2. The handgun’s transfer to, or possession by, a rail police officer employed by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);
3. The transfer of a handgun listed as a curio or relic to any person by the Attorney General pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(13); or
4. The transfer of a handgun to any person for which a secure gun storage or safety device is temporarily unavailable for the reasons described in the exceptions stated in 18 U.S.C. 923(e), if the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer delivers to the transferee within 10 calendar days from the date of the delivery of the handgun to the transferee, a secure gun storage or safety device for the handgun.

(Q4): How are C&R firearms affected by the CSLA?

(A4): C&R firearms are exempt from the CSLA. Therefore, Type 03 licensees, collectors of curios or relics (C&R), are exempt from providing child safety locks in transfers involving C&R firearms.
(Q6): If one gun case or safe is purchased with the sale of multiple handguns, does this meet the obligation to provide secure gun storage or a safety device with each handgun?

(A6): Yes. However, the gun case or safe must be large enough to contain and secure all handguns purchased in a single transaction. Otherwise, the licensee is required to provide a secure gun storage or safety device for each handgun.

[[ Questions 5, 7 - 12 snipped for length ]]
BATFE has not yet provided an acceptable method to document ownership of a gun safe, and even this FAQ seems to imply that each purchase must include "a secure gun storage or safety device" - Q6 says "purchased with". The idea that one might buy one handgun and a safe that can hold 100 handguns, then in a later transaction buy one more handgun to put in the 100-handgun safe seems to have eluded them.

So, until BATFE gets its act together, FFLs have no BATFE "blessed" way to document that a currently-owned gun safe fulfills the requirement for "a secure gun storage or safety device". While that continues, it seems prudent that the dealer would require a gun lock, following California rules on kind and recent purchase.

ETA: Some of the Better Retailers are accepting the safe affidavit before BATFE issues regs to accept safes, since the actual law accepts them.

California law

California law requires dealers to deliver guns only if the gun is accompanied by an approved safety device - PC 12087 and following (Created by 1999's AB 106 - Scott)
Quote:
12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a
dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearms safety device
that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices
and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference
to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the
physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on
the roster for use with the device.

(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the
standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be
required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without
appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for
purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of
the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms
dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of
purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to
(3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
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Last edited by Librarian; 03-01-2009 at 9:34 AM.. Reason: Add CA law. Edit for length.
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Old 09-04-2008, 4:20 PM
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With the addition of a safe to list list of acceptable locking devices, I'd accept the CA Safe Affidavit as proof. If the ATF is going to come after my license for that, I'm probably in bigger trouble anyway.

EDIT: ATF has informed me that the CA Safe Affidavit is NOT acceptable for the Federal requirement.
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Last edited by halifax; 12-27-2008 at 6:06 AM.. Reason: updated
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2008, 4:40 PM
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another sticky masterpiece!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-04-2008, 4:42 PM
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Old 09-05-2008, 1:54 AM
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Lots of info, yet unfortunately I think it still draws the same improper conclusions that a lock must be sold, even if only to make the FFL feel more comfortable. As an example, in that BATFE open letter, nowhere does it mention sales of locks. Why keep propogating the notion that 'provides' equates to 'sells' ?

Until forced to act through some legally binding way to document the issue on the Federal level, then accepting the safe affadavit to comply with CA law, while ensuring that a gun safe, gun case, lock box, etc. is present and 'provided' in order to comply with the Feds should be sufficient.

We shouldn't give any ground on this issue, since far too many FFLs are forcing sales of $4 locks at $8-20 a pop just so that they can feel 'comfortable'.
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenst65 View Post
Lots of info, yet unfortunately I think it still draws the same improper conclusions that a lock must be sold, even if only to make the FFL feel more comfortable. As an example, in that BATFE open letter, nowhere does it mention sales of locks. Why keep propogating the notion that 'provides' equates to 'sells' ?

Until forced to act through some legally binding way to document the issue on the Federal level, then accepting the safe affadavit to comply with CA law, while ensuring that a gun safe, gun case, lock box, etc. is present and 'provided' in order to comply with the Feds should be sufficient.

We shouldn't give any ground on this issue, since far too many FFLs are forcing sales of $4 locks at $8-20 a pop just so that they can feel 'comfortable'.
It is not I who suggests selling the lock is required.

It's the BATFE. If there is an improper conclusion, it's in DC, not in this post.

I agree with you - the safe is in the law, it should be accepted. And I've said several times in this forum that "provided with" can also mean "has"; it is not the case that the only meaning is "seller provides".

But it is not my business at risk if the BATFE come in to audit. Which seems better to you:
  • apologetically sell a lock and explain why
  • accept a safe affidavit, get audited, lose my FFL?
Without clear instructions from BATFE, that is the choice for FFLs.
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Last edited by Librarian; 09-05-2008 at 12:39 PM..
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Old 09-06-2008, 2:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
But it is not my business at risk if the BATFE come in to audit.
...
Without clear instructions from BATFE, that is the choice for FFLs.
So if there are no instructions, what document will the BATFE audit when looking for legal proof that a lock was 'provided'? Presumably this must be a Federal document, so is there some specific place on the newest 4473 where the lock provision is indicated ?

Usually I see FFLs list the lock or safe affadavit info in the comment section of the electronic DROS, however this is a CA specific document, and if BATFE is auditing nationwide on this issue, then there better be someplace else where this is Federally documented if they are to have any say when it comes to auditing.
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Old 09-06-2008, 9:02 AM
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I don't force a customer to buy a lock when they purchase a handgun from me. I provide them one free of charge. I still have a good supply of Project Childsafe gunlocks that I give out at every opportunity. Once those finally run out, I can buy Master #107 gunlocks from my supplier at about $4 per. I'm still going to GIVE them away. If I have to worry about cutting my profit margin by $4 a gun to survive, I've got bigger issues than a stupid gunlock.
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2008, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FortCourageArmory View Post
I don't force a customer to buy a lock when they purchase a handgun from me. I provide them one free of charge. I still have a good supply of Project Childsafe gunlocks that I give out at every opportunity. Once those finally run out, I can buy Master #107 gunlocks from my supplier at about $4 per. I'm still going to GIVE them away. If I have to worry about cutting my profit margin by $4 a gun to survive, I've got bigger issues than a stupid gunlock.
FC,
You are a class act, sir.
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Old 09-06-2008, 1:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
It is not I who suggests selling the lock is required.

It's the BATFE. If there is an improper conclusion, it's in DC, not in this post.

I agree with you - the safe is in the law, it should be accepted. And I've said several times in this forum that "provided with" can also mean "has"; it is not the case that the only meaning is "seller provides".

But it is not my business at risk if the BATFE come in to audit. Which seems better to you:
  • apologetically sell a lock and explain why
  • accept a safe affidavit, get audited, lose my FFL?
Without clear instructions from BATFE, that is the choice for FFLs.
I'm not that concerned about using the CA Safe Affidavit. It's more documentation than required for the lock I am supposed to provide. But, just in case, I did send a letter to BATFE yesterday asking for written claification on the Safe Affidavit approach. I'll post their response when (if) I get it.
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Old 09-06-2008, 2:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halifax View Post
I'm not that concerned about using the CA Safe Affidavit. It's more documentation than required for the lock I am supposed to provide. But, just in case, I did send a letter to BATFE yesterday asking for written claification on the Safe Affidavit approach. I'll post their response when (if) I get it.
You and FortCourage and probably a large number of others are clearly Good Guys (TM).

A lot of others, however, may remember Red's Trading Post, and how one of our favorite government agencies can be inconsistent, petty, and vindictive.

Writing and asking for clarification is almost certainly the right action. Since I don't have an FFL, I decided I didn't have enough 'standing' that they'd bother with me. I know they've been ignoring my email for more than a year.

The point of the thread was to inform Calgunners that the safe/lock thing is not something made up to inconvenience or bleed customers and to give the specifics. It's an FAQ.

How any individual FFL chooses to do business - how much risk s/he wishes to accept, how to explain the problem to customers, how to train staff other than the FFL-holder, how that business will implement following unclear directions - is a decision s/he is, and must be, free to make for himself.
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Old 07-13-2009, 7:03 PM
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Apparently many "inexpensive" gun safes, for example 250lb Sentry G-4311, are classified by CA DOJ as "lockboxes". And certified lockboxes require a receipt for affidavit to be accepted.

# Is presentation of a receipt always required when a person signs the affidavit stating ownership of a DOJ-approved lock box?

Yes. If the firearm recipient claims an exception to the FSD requirement due to ownership of a DOJ-approved lock box, a receipt for the DOJ-approved lock box will be required in all circumstances.


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/ab106faqs.php#4

Now I'm wondering what would a person buying a used such lockbox provide as the receipt

P.S. I've stepped into this trap just last Sunday at Martin Retting in Culver City.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:13 PM
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I spoke with BATFE by phone about this last year. I asked how they enforce the lock requirement when there is no documentation required. I was told that the only way they can enforce it is if they visually see a handgun leave an FFL premesis without a lock. Also, according to this conversation BATFE does not care who "provides" the lock to the transferee, only that I have them available for customers who need them. I have my customers bring a lock from home if they have one. Any lock that fits the gun will do. If they don't have one, I sell them a used one for $1.

Used locks work for Cal BOF as well. They have to Cal approved, but nothing in the law says they have to be new.
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RHT447 View Post
I spoke with BATFE by phone about this last year. I asked how they enforce the lock requirement when there is no documentation required. I was told that the only way they can enforce it is if they visually see a handgun leave an FFL premesis without a lock. Also, according to this conversation BATFE does not care who "provides" the lock to the transferee, only that I have them available for customers who need them. I have my customers bring a lock from home if they have one. Any lock that fits the gun will do. If they don't have one, I sell them a used one for $1.

Used locks work for Cal BOF as well. They have to Cal approved, but nothing in the law says they have to be new.
That sounded really good until the last line- CA law requires the lock be new to the person receiving the gun: 12088.1(e), as in the first post in this thread
Quote:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
Someone can certainly sell a used, CA-approved lock. You are one of the Good Guys, providing an easy way to satisfy this requirement.

Bill and Joe can make a deal to sell each other the same lock, 30 days or fewer before the other buys a new handgun, and providing a nice, printed receipt with the new date to show the FFL. That fits the requirement of the law.
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Old 07-14-2009, 1:09 AM
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To add to the C&R handgun exemption, it appears that C&R licensees are exempt from the entire federal Child Safety Lock Act and would only need to comply with the CA safey device law, which can be covered with the Safe Affidavit.


Quote:
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922
§ 922. Unlawful acts
...
(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—
(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.
C&R FFLs are a person licensed under this chapter, Chapter 44.
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Old 07-14-2009, 3:34 AM
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Some one may have already said this but Glocks come with child locks from factory
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Old 07-14-2009, 5:30 AM
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I kow a shop that has sold the same lock at least 15 times, as long as you do not open the package you can return it the next day. and it is 3.95+tax
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Old 07-14-2009, 6:58 AM
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ok, so a little help here. if i bring this: do i need to buy the lock @ the shop when i pick up??

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemD...aspx?sku=60573
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Old 07-14-2009, 7:23 AM
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If it's on DOJ approved lockbox list, then yes (must show receipt like I stated above), but otherwise no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosmatt View Post
ok, so a little help here. if i bring this: do i need to buy the lock @ the shop when i pick up??

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemD...aspx?sku=60573
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Old 04-14-2010, 5:17 PM
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So, why not simply sell the purchaser a lock and then let them return it to you for credit or refund later. You could have a bin of locks that have been sold and returned many times? I know its a hassle but it beats messing with the ATF. I honestly thought the Cal Safe affidavit was sufficient. So basically not only did I spend a huge sum for a safe, but I still need to buy a friggin' lock every time I purchase a firearm--a lock I'll never use because I have a safe and locks for my transport containers. I envision a land fill full of unneeded cable locks. How ecologically correct.
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Old 04-14-2010, 6:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
So basically not only did I spend a huge sum for a safe, but I still need to buy a friggin' lock every time I purchase a firearm HANDGUN --a lock I'll never use because I have a safe and locks for my transport containers. I envision a land fill full of unneeded cable locks. How ecologically correct.
Fixed it for you.

Safe's are fine for anything not a handgun. Rifles, shotguns, receivers, etc.
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Old 04-14-2010, 6:16 PM
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Kharn Kharn is offline
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Almost all manufacturers include a junky lock with every handgun they ship, it doesn't pass California's view of a proper lock but it suffices for federal law.
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  #23  
Old 02-21-2011, 11:47 AM
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Rudolf the Red Rudolf the Red is offline
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Quote:
Almost all manufacturers include a junky lock with every handgun they ship, it doesn't pass California's view of a proper lock but it suffices for federal law.
Many of the locks that come with handguns are CA approved. Ya just gotta look 'em up.

One of my first customers gave me a huge box of CA approved gun locks. Until they run out, they are free with every purchase.
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