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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 08-15-2008, 6:53 PM
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Default Stag range report and thoughts (M1 & M1A comparision)

I took my M4orgery to Burro today. I had been taking it every week or so for a couple months. Since it's summer, steel ammo is verbotten, so my garands and M1A have had the summer off. I usually run Lake City or other surplus through them.

Now, I found I am much more accurate on my M1s and M1As. I use iron sites all arounds so it's an interesting comparison. I'm no rifleman being more of a pistol guy. Now with my Stag I have to really struggle to hit my 8 inch Stick and See target sticker at 100 yards. This was never the case with my other military rifles. I believe this is due to a shorter lenght between front and rear sites and the 223 being more sensitive to wind.

I had a failure to eject about every 20 rounds using Winchester (small 20 round boxes with a cowboy on it). One failure was serious and I had to get out the tools to unjam an empty that was caught above the bolt. This is not confidence inspiring: one failure to eject about every 20 rounds. In a similar period with my M1A, I might get a FTE, perhaps every 100 rounds. My Garands run even better. I cant remember a failure in the last 1000 rounds. Do most M4s and M4orgeries jam that much? That would really suck if your life depended on it.
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Old 08-15-2008, 7:01 PM
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For FTE, usually the magazine is the culprit. Fire using different mags. With my Stag upper, I only have had one FTE, it was with a Lancer mag. When in Nevada a few weeks ago firing 30rdr PMAGs, I fired over 1000 rounds in one day with no failures.
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  #3  
Old 08-15-2008, 8:16 PM
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can`t recall last time my colts jammed, but as I recall it was magazine related.
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Old 08-15-2008, 8:26 PM
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can`t recall last time my colts jammed, but as I recall it was magazine related.
thats funny.
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  #5  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:15 PM
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Excuse my ignorance, but why would the magazine keep it from ejecting. I can see a failure to feed.
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  #6  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:41 PM
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You can pretty much blame FTE on the finicky direct impingement (DI) gas system that the M4 utilizes to cycle the weapon. Depending on the ammo, DI can work good or it can work really bad, like in your case. Your m14 and m1 garands utilize gas pistons to cycle the weapon, which has been proven to be may times more reliable than DI systems.

On another note, you could also have problems with your extractor, but I doubt that.

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Originally Posted by handirifle View Post
Excuse my ignorance, but why would the magazine keep it from ejecting. I can see a failure to feed.
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  #7  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jjperl View Post
You can pretty much blame FTE on the finicky direct impingement (DI) gas system that the M4 utilizes to cycle the weapon. Depending on the ammo, DI can work good or it can work really bad, like in your case. Your m14 and m1 garands utilize gas pistons to cycle the weapon, which has been proven to be may times more reliable than DI systems.

On another note, you could also have problems with your extractor, but I doubt that.
Actually no they really haven't.
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  #8  
Old 08-16-2008, 12:41 AM
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Actually no they really haven't.
Actually they have
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  #9  
Old 08-16-2008, 12:17 PM
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I think something else is the cause of your poor shooting @ 100 yards with your Stag. The .223 isn't the best round but at 100 yards, nothing short of a hurricane would affect it enough to impact someones shooting performance.

In fact, wind only really becomes an issue around 300 yards.
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  #10  
Old 08-16-2008, 12:38 PM
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The shorter sight radius on an M4gery is definitely an issue when shooting with the irons, or at least it is for me. That's why on mine, I took off my handguards and FSB, put a rifle length DD 12.0 Lite FF rail on it, buried a low profile gas block under the rail, and stuck a folding Troy battle sight out at the end of the rail. That giives me a sight radius more like an A2/A4gery, which is still shorter than a Garand or M14/M1A, but way longer than a standard M4gery.

As for your FTE issue, try changing ammo first, and if you still have the same issue, it's time to go through the usual diagnostic routine: bad feed lips on the magazine, old or lined-up gas rings on the bolt, weak extractor spring, gas tube problems, loose gas key, wrong buffer weight, etc.

Try new ammo first.
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  #11  
Old 08-16-2008, 1:02 PM
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I know what the problem is, ITS STAG!!!

Sell that POS and get a CMMG, RRA, or Armalite upper and your problems will go away.

If you can, get a Middy upper instead of a Carbine.
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  #12  
Old 08-16-2008, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjperl View Post
You can pretty much blame FTE on the finicky direct impingement (DI) gas system that the M4 utilizes to cycle the weapon. Depending on the ammo, DI can work good or it can work really bad, like in your case. Your m14 and m1 garands utilize gas pistons to cycle the weapon, which has been proven to be may times more reliable than DI systems.
If you care to post or point me in a direction where this statement can be found, please do so. AFAIK and in my real life experience, there has been no evidence showing ANY system is superior to one over the other in reliability.
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2008, 4:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
If you care to post or point me in a direction where this statement can be found, please do so. AFAIK and in my real life experience, there has been no evidence showing ANY system is superior to one over the other in reliability.
Both systems are reliable, however many gas piston systems do indeed generally have better reliability in the long run. The real question is: does it really matter for us civvies? I would say that it doesn't really, since most of us clean our guns frequently enough where you would never really see the benefit of a gas piston upper for an AR-series rifle.

Oh yeah, and you wanted a source:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ston-carbines/
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  #14  
Old 08-16-2008, 9:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato View Post
This is not confidence inspiring: one failure to eject about every 20 rounds.

Do most M4s and M4orgeries jam that much?
No, this is NOT normal.

Nevermind the others on their soapboxes here, let's diagnose and fix your problem...

What happens when it fails to eject? Is the fired case left in the chamber? Or does the fired case wind up in the upper receiver, getting in the way of the next round chambering (I think this might actually be called a "double-feed" failure). Or is the fired case just not getting out of ejection port? Each of these would point to a different problem (extractor, buffer, etc.).

Ben


PS: If you haven't already, you should search arf.com and m4carbine.net and/or ask there for a more focused audience...

PPS: Failing to hit a 8" target at 100yds means that you're not even shooting 8moa...
Something's seriously wrong with your accuracy, and it's way more than the short sight radius or the wind. Start with your shooting technique — see if a buddy can hit the broad side of a barn with the gun. If not, then look at the ammo. If quality ammo is also inaccurate, then look at the gun.
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  #15  
Old 08-17-2008, 6:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato View Post
Now with my Stag I have to really struggle to hit my 8 inch Stick and See target sticker at 100 yards. This was never the case with my other military rifles. I believe this is due to a shorter lenght between front and rear sites and the 223 being more sensitive to wind.
The shorter sight radius may contribute to your issue, a little. An 8" circle @ 100 yds is well within AR capabilities. Let someone else try the gun & see how they do. If wind is really an issue, try shooting on a still day. A good carbine class will probably be beneficial.

-hanko
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  #16  
Old 08-17-2008, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjperl View Post
Actually they have
I dont expect AK guys to understand, but you are completely wrong on this one
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  #17  
Old 08-17-2008, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Rock View Post
I dont expect AK guys to understand, but you are completely wrong on this one
Good work hi-jacking this thread. I'm sure that the OP didn't really want a response to his questions, and he much prefers bickering about the merits of direct inpingement and piston systems. Where's a moderator when you need one?

The point is, direct inpingement is typically reliable enough that his gun shouldn't be jamming every 20 rounds or so.
And carbines (not mid-lengths) are typically reliable enough that his gun shouldn't be jamming every 20 rounds or so.

Ben
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  #18  
Old 08-17-2008, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer2 View Post
Good work hi-jacking this thread. I'm sure that the OP didn't really want a response to his questions, and he much prefers bickering about the merits of direct inpingement and piston systems. Where's a moderator when you need one?

The point is, direct inpingement is typically reliable enough that his gun shouldn't be jamming every 20 rounds or so.
And carbines (not mid-lengths) are typically reliable enough that his gun shouldn't be jamming every 20 rounds or so.

Ben
Failure to ejects can be causd by weak extractor springs. You need to replace the extractor spring with an extra power spring and a black insert. which can be found here: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-E...%20upgrade.htm

If that doesnt work you need to check for short stroking,(using 1 round in your magazine to see if it locks the bolt back 10 times). Or check if you carrier key is loose.

Bimmer, I hate misinformation and I will do anything to correct misinformation no matter what thread its in. jjperls statement is flat out wrong and Im not correcting him for the sake of arguing but to make sure others dont believe false information. This is the errornet after all

Last edited by J_Rock; 08-17-2008 at 12:29 PM..
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  #19  
Old 08-17-2008, 12:35 PM
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No worries, J Rock. I just hate to see a lot of "You're wrong -- No, you're wrong -- No, YOU are wrong" ***-grabbing when somebody's looking for a solution to a problem.

The OP could have the opposite problem: if empty cases aren't left in the chamber but are stove-piping, then it might be that the action is cycling too quickly and not getting the brass out of the ejection port. A heavier buffer would slow it down and fix this, AFAIK.

Ben
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer2 View Post
No worries, J Rock. I just hate to see a lot of "You're wrong -- No, you're wrong -- No, YOU are wrong" ***-grabbing when somebody's looking for a solution to a problem.

The OP could have the opposite problem: if empty cases aren't left in the chamber but are stove-piping, then it might be that the action is cycling too quickly and not getting the brass out of the ejection port. A heavier buffer would slow it down and fix this, AFAIK.

Ben
I was assuming the OP already had a H buffer. If not get one ASAP!
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  #21  
Old 08-17-2008, 7:00 PM
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Well most people hit better with a AR style rifle than a M1A or a GARAND and pick up 20-60 points shooting highpower.....

But, shouldn't be suprised at anything......

I'd need more info to get a handle on the problem.....now most people just aren't familar w/ weapons and most problems that come around are just due to lack of experience......but that shouldn't be an issue in your case...
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  #22  
Old 08-18-2008, 2:26 AM
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EJECTOR...I do believe...O rings should do the trick. Or bad Ammo.... Head spacing?
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  #23  
Old 08-18-2008, 8:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandmtv View Post
I know what the problem is, ITS STAG!!!

Sell that POS and get a CMMG, RRA, or Armalite upper and your problems will go away.

If you can, get a Middy upper instead of a Carbine.

I have 2 STAGs, they both shoot great! Had a FTF on one of the rifles, but it was a magazine issue. I've only used Lake City XM193, some Privi M855, Privi .223 62gr. and some Remington UMC 55gr. All worked GREAT!!!
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Old 08-18-2008, 9:32 AM
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All ar-15 should have an MDI D-Fender or similar.

http://www.mgimilitary.com/dring.htm

Will help with fte issues.
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  #25  
Old 08-18-2008, 1:19 PM
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The failure to eject is probably a magazine issue. When I first got the rifle I used 10 round Stag magazines - the kind that fit flush. I couldn't even get the rifle to chamber a round. Since then I have been using a Bushmaster 10/20 magazine. I wonder if the fact that I am using a Bullet Button is causing the problem.

Accuracy issues are probably just me. Strange thing is when I shoot standing with a hasty sling I can hit the stick and see target 2 out of 3 times at least. It's when I'm on a rest spending too much time aiming that my rounds go all over the place. I'm using the big apeture which allows my front sites to move around a lot in my site view.


Thanks for your imput guys!
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Old 08-18-2008, 1:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato View Post
The failure to eject is probably a magazine issue... I wonder if the fact that I am using a Bullet Button is causing the problem.

Accuracy issues are probably just me... I'm using the big apeture which allows my front sites to move around a lot in my site view.
1. I don't see how your magazine could cause a failure to eject. Please describe your failure: exactly what has happened when he gun fails to fire?

2. If you're trying to shoot targets at 100yds, then switch to the small aperature. What kind of rest are you using? Resting the barrel on something hard will make your shots go all over the place, because the barrel will "jump" off whatever it's resting on as it fires.

Ben
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Old 08-18-2008, 2:06 PM
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Most AR issues can be tied to
  • poor lubrication
  • mag failures;
  • lack of chrome-lined bbl (chamber);
  • crap ammo (less so than other items above) - esp reloads


Have you been thru the USGI manual and lubed it accordingly?
Are that bolt/extractor/ejector and bolt lugs and carrier wet with CLP?
Any drag in your magazine follower when you exercise it w/a popsicle stick?

Who makes your upper?
Who makes your mag?
Are you running a fixed mag configuration or a featureless MMG setup w/detachable mags?
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  #28  
Old 08-18-2008, 2:30 PM
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I understand how a magazine could cause a failure to feed, but I don't understand how it can cause a failure to eject.

Ben
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Old 08-18-2008, 2:38 PM
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Well, what happens is instead of ejecting the empty round, that round will get caught above the chamber and the next round will come partially out of the mag. Usually I can just tip the rifle to the side and the empty will drop out. Then I can recharge the rifle or drop the mag and push out the unfired round. The worst jam was when the emptie got caught above the bolt. I had to wiggle it back and forth with a tool to get it loose after I removed my magazine.

As for my rifle specs...I have a Stag lower, a leftie upper (M4forgery with Iron Sites), Stag lower parts kit, and stag stock.

Bimmer2, for a rest I use a Caldwell Rock Jr. Rifle Front Shooting Rest. That might be the cause of the inaccuracy. However I shoot my M1s and M1A and my bolts off this rest with no trouble.

As for proper lubrication, that could be the issue too. I have always lightly lubed all the parts and used gun greese on the outside of the bolt. Before I take her back to Burro, I'll try to follow the USGI method.

The rifle is on the second from the right.
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Old 08-18-2008, 2:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTXR390 View Post
I have 2 STAGs, they both shoot great! Had a FTF on one of the rifles, but it was a magazine issue. I've only used Lake City XM193, some Privi M855, Privi .223 62gr. and some Remington UMC 55gr. All worked GREAT!!!

Just because your Stags work does not mean all stags work!

Stick around and you will see post after post about Stag uppers malfunctioning. Or better yet, use the search function and you will see how many posts there are about Stag upper problems.

The funny thing is that Stags cost as much as RRA, CMMG and Armalite uppers, and yet people still buy Stag over the other 3.
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Old 08-18-2008, 3:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato View Post
As for proper lubrication, that could be the issue too. I have always lightly lubed all the parts and used gun greese on the outside of the bolt. Before I take her back to Burro, I'll try to follow the USGI method.
I'm betting it's the "gun greese" on the outside of the bolt. It's probably more viscous than CLP and is leading to a short stroke of the bolt and BCG, thus not enough oomph to get that empty shell out and away, so there it sits as the next round tries to feed, and you've got a logjam.

I'd give the whole shebang a good cleaning with CLP, and then lube the bolt and the carrier group moderately, with CLP only, and see what results you get that way.

Good luck, and let us know how it works out for you!
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Old 08-18-2008, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandmtv View Post
Just because your Stags work does not mean all stags work!

Stick around and you will see post after post about Stag uppers malfunctioning. Or better yet, use the search function and you will see how many posts there are about Stag upper problems.

The funny thing is that Stags cost as much as RRA, CMMG and Armalite uppers, and yet people still buy Stag over the other 3.
That's not sound logical reasoning. One could easily say that 'just because your Stag upper didn't work doesn't mean all Stags fail'.
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  #33  
Old 08-18-2008, 6:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato View Post
Well, what happens is instead of ejecting the empty round, that round will get caught above the chamber and the next round will come partially out of the mag.
The Malfunction:

Your extractor is fine.

Check for short-stroking. Load and fire one round out a magazine, twenty times. The bolt should lock back every time. If it doesn't, then your rifle isn't cycling far enough backwards to eject the spent cartridge.

On the other hand, if you don't have an H buffer, then your rifle could have the opposite problem: it might be cycling too far, too fast. If the bolt moves back too fast, then the spent cartridge misses the ejection port and winds up staying in the upper and then jamming with the next round (I think this is called "double feeding).

Accuracy:

It sounds like the problem is NOT you.

I'm guessing ammunition. Get 50-100 rounds of quality "match" ammo and try it.

If you can't shoot less than 4moa (4" at 100yds) with quality ammo, then there's something wrong with your rifle. Check for loose sights or a loose barrel or a problem with the rifling or the crown. If all else fails, return it to wherever you got it.

Good luck,

Ben
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Old 08-18-2008, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandmtv View Post
Just because your Stags work does not mean all stags work!

Stick around and you will see post after post about Stag uppers malfunctioning. Or better yet, use the search function and you will see how many posts there are about Stag upper problems.

The funny thing is that Stags cost as much as RRA, CMMG and Armalite uppers, and yet people still buy Stag over the other 3.
My .05.......nobdoy sells more STAGs in the whole US besides CWS.....if there was an overall issue with them we would see it right away.....to date there have only been two STAG uppers that we've sent back.....percentage is in the .01s for issues......and we haven't had one returned in over a year.....

Stags are in use at several LE ranges and they see tons of abuse and keep on ticking, those guys don't buy their own ammo

They buy STAGs cause they work.........
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  #35  
Old 08-18-2008, 6:59 PM
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OMG NEVER BUT NEVER USE GREASE ON AN AR15.

There's your problem.

Go use solvent to clean that crap off 100%.

Then completely relube in BreakFreeCLP as per manual.

Your rifle has no problem, it was just user error.
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  #36  
Old 08-18-2008, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer2 View Post
The Malfunction:

Your extractor is fine.

Check for short-stroking. Load and fire one round out a magazine, twenty times. The bolt should lock back every time. If it doesn't, then your rifle isn't cycling far enough backwards to eject the spent cartridge.

On the other hand, if you don't have an H buffer, then your rifle could have the opposite problem: it might be cycling too far, too fast. If the bolt moves back too fast, then the spent cartridge misses the ejection port and winds up staying in the upper and then jamming with the next round (I think this is called "double feeding).

Accuracy:

It sounds like the problem is NOT you.

I'm guessing ammunition. Get 50-100 rounds of quality "match" ammo and try it.

If you can't shoot less than 4moa (4" at 100yds) with quality ammo, then there's something wrong with your rifle. Check for loose sights or a loose barrel or a problem with the rifling or the crown. If all else fails, return it to wherever you got it.

Good luck,

Ben
I think the advice given (though moshed up in multiple posts) is pretty solid on checking for malfunctions. Lube correctly, check for short stroking or needing a heavy buffer. Also, check the gas rings, staking of the gas key (very important) and look for leaks on the FSB (you'll see streaks on the barrel).

Mags & ammo are cheap and easy to test. Which bushmaster 10/20 are you using? Theirs or the ProMags? Downloading by one (to 9) can help with loading when the bolt's closed.

Using the large aperture at 100yds will lead to very poor accuracy. You need to use the small. The fact you're shooting tighter off-hand says you're changing technique (likely focusing properly on the front sight off-hand).

Additionally, you could be flexing the crud out of the barrel in your rest, depending on how you're supporting the rifle.
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Last edited by aplinker; 08-18-2008 at 7:17 PM..
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  #37  
Old 08-18-2008, 7:20 PM
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We used nothing but CLiP in the Marines. Follow Bills advice.
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Old 08-19-2008, 7:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandmtv View Post
Just because your Stags work does not mean all stags work!

Stick around and you will see post after post about Stag uppers malfunctioning. Or better yet, use the search function and you will see how many posts there are about Stag upper problems.

The funny thing is that Stags cost as much as RRA, CMMG and Armalite uppers, and yet people still buy Stag over the other 3.
you can say that about all other brands too...ahahaha. Whoa, wat a Stag Hater.

Dont worry, my next build has a Spikes lower, n will have a RRA upper...happy?

LOL
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