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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-15-2008, 8:29 AM
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Default MD cops raid home b/c man buys ammo for gun not in state records

Found here. Just scroll down past the pic.

Supposedly the NRA Chief Counsel was notified of this incident. If the description at the link is true, I think we can expect to see a writeup in American Rifleman or America's First Freedom sometime soon.
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  #2  
Old 08-15-2008, 8:39 AM
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Sounds like Sacramento's not far behind in this kind of scenario.
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Old 08-15-2008, 8:48 AM
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Don't forget that Pelosi is a transplanted Marylander.
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Old 08-15-2008, 9:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pbchief2 View Post
Sounds like Sacramento's not far behind in this kind of scenario.
Exactly what I was thinking....
Ol mayor Fargo would love this kind of thing. She's already unleashed the code enforcement nazis on the city to try and collect revenue.
I was just watching the news the other night and the city counsel and Sac PD were celebrating the success of the ammo reg. ordinance in Sacramento. The story featured about 50 guns on a table and they spouted about collecting like 800 rounds or something. After hearing the story about the guy who was harassed by the Homicide divison I'm convinced they're on the way. I went ahead and wrote a nice little email to the news asking why they aren't reporting that little incident.
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How about the next time a kid gets suspended/expelled for simply drawing a picture of a gun. I see a federal civil rights lawsuit against the school district for violation of 1st & 2nd amendments.


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Old 08-15-2008, 9:07 AM
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This is an outrage!
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  #6  
Old 08-15-2008, 9:27 AM
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HOly @#$#@$ @#$@!#$23 12$#$!@#$OJ oilkgja'sdf #@$%#@%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that's even remotely true..... I know what I would have had to say about it.
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  #7  
Old 08-15-2008, 9:41 AM
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Don't forget that Pelosi is a transplanted Marylander.
Im suffering from transplant rejection.
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  #8  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:06 AM
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Sad this happens in America, Tac team should spend the time going after Drug Dealers and other criminals. Oh wait they would need warrents to raid them.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:07 AM
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I think this is the article....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Henry.

I just wanted your organization to know what Our State Police are up too. The incident below happened to me, a legal gun owner in La Plata, Maryland two nights ago (August 4, 2008 at 12:30 PM). Next time, they won't get in without a warrant. You live and you learn. Below, is the e-mail I sent to Mr. Chris Contee NRA, Chief Counsel at his request. I know I'm not an isolated incident so I hope your members keep their doors locked.

Dear Chris,

It was great to speak with you today by phone. Sorry but also glad you are so busy with our legislative matters. What would we do without you and the NRA?

As I told you by phone, my Wife and I were unfairly besieged late last night by the Maryland State Police. I have also relayed this occurrence to "Citizens Group for the right to keep and bear arms". I believe they are in Seattle Washington. Enclosed is my summation for your review. Good luck on your trip and safe travel.

Last night at 12:30 pm a MD State Police "Armed Response Team" showed up at our door. I was dead asleep, my Wife was laying some ceramic tile on our basement floor when our driveway alert went off several times. She looked at the camera monitor and screamed that Police in Assault gear were running up to our front door. That made me sit straight up from a dead sleep.

We thought they were there for my Brother in Law who had just been mailed Bench Warrants to our home, but he doesn't live here and he is already incarcerated, so my Wife opened the door for them. Then I heard one of them say he had some papers for me or needed to speak with me,so I got up to speak with them 6 or 7 officers in full assault vests, etc. and NO ONE in uniform. Four heavily armed police came into the house while at least two others walked around outside of our home.

One, began to talk to me asking me about the types of weapons I own. Remember now, I was just startled from a dead sleep and I kept asking why are you here, why do you want to know about my guns? Every gun I bought in Maryland I bought from a MD Dealer. Well this Trooper said that I had purchased a "large amount" of ammunition recently and wanted to know why. When I questioned why he was asking, then he changed his tune to what type of Handguns I had. I told him I just purchased my first handgun in Maryland last week, but had not even picked it up from the Store . He questioned me about other handguns I might own and I realized that he was "fishing" to match his list of my ammunition purchases with handguns that I owned. Then I told him about my C&R license that I had purchased 2 with that but was not required to register them with ST. Police. Moreover, I told him it was the MD. ST. Police who approved me as a "designated collector" so why are they here in storm trooper fashion at 12:30 pm maybe to kill me because I legally bought some handgun ammo? He told me that most of the ammo I purchased was for weapons that they had no record of me having registered so the "SYSTEM" Flagged me. Flagged me for what? Death, Harassment at midnight by 7 Storm Troopers?

I asked, "... does your system know that it is stupid to buy ammo with your own ID if your are going to do something illegal, Does your system know that I have a C&R and can buy weapons of various calibers without your knowledge, Does your system know that you yourselves registered me as a designated collector, who "collects" so it is not unusual for me to buy any type or manner of ammunition and finally, Does your system know that it is NOT illegal to purchase handgun ammunition in the State of Maryland whether or not you own that caliber handgun?"

The Trooper (plain clothes), had a list of ammo calibers that he referred to and I agreed, there's no secret that I bought the ammo, but so what? And I'm still not sure of the States definition of a "large amount". Look, I'm not outfitting a Militia, hate group, or giving it to someone who can't buy it, or even buy ammo for a stolen weapon I don't want to register. Any weapon I have every owned has either been purchased at a Gun Store or I personally knew the individual I bought it from and its origin. And, last time I looked it is not illegal to buy handgun ammo, even if you don't own the caliber weapon OR you don't own a weapon at all !! So unless the law is changed, Police cannot harass people who do so.

That being said, the young Trooper told me I "should" voluntarily register all my weapons or this would happen again... because the "system" flagged me. And another thing, he kept asking where I kept my weapons, in a safe? I never answered him and he asked me three separate times as to the locations of any weapons I might have. I got the distinct impression he wanted me to voluntarily let him see/inspect the handguns for the calibers I bought ammo for, but I was ready for that. No warrant, no see. I mean, I would hope you could trust the Police, but why should I let six or seven or so strangers know where I keep guns? If indeed I had the calibers he was inquiring about?

The point here though, is that Police came to my home without a warrant, dressed to kill, trying to intimidate me about something that is NOT illegal !! This was not an Interview it was an interrogation under duress.

Funny the last thing he said to me before leaving was "... Mr. Curtis, sorry to have HARASSED you, you have a good night."
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  #10  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:08 AM
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yeah, that would definitely piss me off too. I hope this gets a little more attention.

.
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"If someone is so fearful that they are going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have weapons at all." - U.S. Rep Henry Waxman (D-CA)

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  #11  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
If that's even remotely true..... I know what I would have had to say about it.
One of the moderators on mdshooters.com reported that he was in contact with the person in question, and verified the story.

See posts by user "Norton" here.

ETA: at least they didn't shoot any dogs this time...
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  #12  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:13 AM
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Wow. I wonder what happens if I go out and buy some 7.62x25, .38 caliber, and .45.

I wonder if I'm in the "system" because I was mistakenly sold some .45 earlier on.

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  #13  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:22 AM
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I have over 1000 rounds of .45 and no .45 gun. I guess I'd be on a list too, but I'm just trying to narrow down my wife's birthday shopping list.
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:49 AM
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time to get a GOOD lawyer
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  #15  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:50 AM
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I'm going up to the Reno gun show next weekend, and I was thinking about swinging through Sacramento to buy some 9mm pistol ammo just to give them one more record in their database. If enough people do that, the database can start to be meaningless. They can start to have a needle in haystack problem, plus it might even screw with their database's performance, depending on how it was implemented.

The kicker is that I don't own a pistol chambered in 9mm. So if they ever came to see my 9mm pistol, good luck with that.
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2008, 11:23 AM
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Now how did the police know he bought ammo?
Does MD have the ammo purchase registration laws?
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  #17  
Old 08-15-2008, 11:26 AM
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12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:35 AM
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Ammo......What ammo?...
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  #19  
Old 08-15-2008, 11:44 AM
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WOW.....
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  #20  
Old 08-15-2008, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leelaw View Post
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.
I based my use of "raid" in the thread title on this description, apparently based on what the man's wife called out to him after she screamed: "Police in Assault gear were running up to our front door."

Yes, they didn't kick the door down. However, I myself would characterize a house call by a squad of "heavily armed" non-uniformed and plainclothes troopers in assault gear as a "raid," regardless of whether or not they actually had to bash the door in.
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  #21  
Old 08-15-2008, 1:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leelaw View Post
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.
I wonder what would have happened if they hadn't cooperated with the authorities?

Is it just me, or is this a complete trampling of civil liberties? Who's keystone kops idea was this?
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Old 08-15-2008, 1:10 PM
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Default Voluntary search ?

When a armed swat team shows up at your door, and they start interogating you, few people would say no or where is your warrant.

The only rights you have are the ones you know about, and the police know most people are ignorant or afraid to exercise your rights.

This not only applies about guns by the way.

A few years ago in Alaska, the local police were going around asking to search peoples houses for drugs, and what they did was mark down all the houses where people said no so that they could be watched.

After all, if you have nothing to hide, why would you say no.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, don't think so anymore

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Old 08-15-2008, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicki View Post
When a armed swat team shows up at your door, and they start interogating you, few people would say no or where is your warrant.

The only rights you have are the ones you know about, and the police know most people are ignorant or afraid to exercise your rights.

This not only applies about guns by the way.

A few years ago in Alaska, the local police were going around asking to search peoples houses for drugs, and what they did was mark down all the houses where people said no so that they could be watched.

After all, if you have nothing to hide, why would you say no.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, don't think so anymore

Nicki
And not so long ago, Oakland started a program doing the same thing. The idea so that cops can find what their kids have been hiding..
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Old 08-15-2008, 2:23 PM
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I've been searching for news stories on this, including

http://www.topix.com/city/la-plata-md

but can't find a shred.
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Old 08-15-2008, 2:25 PM
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Thanks for posting this story about a bunch of JBTs trying to indimidate a citizen.

We all need reminders like this so we remember how to respond to similar situations.

NO WARRANT... NO ENTRY.

In other words... move along before you get stepped on!

And I'd call it harrassment instead of a raid, does that make you feel better leelaw?

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Old 08-15-2008, 3:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leelaw View Post
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.
They entered into the property without permission (backyard) at 12:30am in full tactical gear. While not as "Action Packed" as our typical raid, I fail to see how this was anything but?

Simply because they didn't kick down the door and follow a flashbang it's not a raid?
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Old 08-15-2008, 4:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
And I'd call it harrassment instead of a raid, does that make you feel better leelaw?

It's not a matter of my being happy or not, I was merely pointing out the mischaracterizing of the event from one point of view.

Funny how when the media does this, CGN has a big outroar demanding that proper terminology is used, but when it's the evil JBT fools, well then the double standard comes in.

Regardless, I'm still waiting for all sides of the story, not one side from a guy who is drumming up support online.
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Old 08-15-2008, 4:41 PM
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The guy doesnt even know how to tell time. Makes it hard to believe the rest of the story.
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  #29  
Old 08-15-2008, 5:15 PM
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Eh, and you forgot an apostrophe.

This is yet another example of the garbage we gun owners have to deal with.

We have no rights except those we sue to keep.
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Old 08-15-2008, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leelaw View Post
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.
The PM seems to be a typo. He does say "last night" right before that.

And I'm sorry, but if you're decked out like soldiers on patrol, you're dressed to kill...
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  #31  
Old 08-15-2008, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
The PM seems to be a typo. He does say "last night" right before that.

And I'm sorry, but if you're decked out like soldiers on patrol, you're dressed to kill...
Exactly, and if they just came by to talk, why did they show up in the middle of the night. Also, why did they tell the guy to register his guns so it wouldn't happen again? Sounds like a threat to me, a threat made by a bunch of stormtrooper NAZIS.
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Old 08-15-2008, 7:05 PM
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Sorry but my backyard is my property. If you enter it with out a warrant then you are trespassing. If you enter it in plain cloths with firearms out I would consider you a bad guy! There is no reason that officers should be out of uniform will serving a warrant. Cool black tactical cloths makes you no more bullet proof than putting your extra vest on over your uniform. It makes it very hard to tell the difference between them and bad guys there to do you and your family harm.
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Old 08-15-2008, 8:49 PM
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I've had about enough of the 'LEO=NAZI' stuff.

Nazi's gassed people by the hundreds of thousands, they slaughters families wholesale and torture was an amusement to them.
Comparing that to LEOs is not only ridiculous it is insulting to both the LEO and the people who died at the hands of the Nazis.

I assume my position on this comparison is clear.
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Old 08-15-2008, 8:54 PM
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Dressed to kill really is an exaggeration we can do without as well.
I doubt any of the people in question set out to kill someone.

Adding such language just act to inflame emotion.
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Old 08-15-2008, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dressed to kill really is an exaggeration we can do without as well.
I doubt any of the people in question set out to kill someone.

Adding such language just act to inflame emotion.
"All I know is, I finally get to kill somebody"
Psycho from the movie STRIPES

I remember watching an episode of "American Detective", the now-defunct spin-off of "Cops", hosted by the uber-annoying Sheriff John Bunnel. He was showing us an LEO team (I don't recall the department or location), as they practiced doing no-knock warrant searches on residences. They yelled "Police!" (or some such), broke down the door, then immediately proceeded to shoot at every single human shaped target that was set-up in the mock house. After the dust cleared, one of the cops walked up to a human target with the middle completely blown away, laughed, and said "This guy's dead!".

That's how these people were trained, to shoot to kill at the outset.

This episode stuck in my mind because it aired not long after Snohomish County (WA) Sheriffs swat executed a 28 year old mother (Robin Pratt) in her apartment with an MP5. I lived in the same aprtments.

Is the language too inflammatory for you? Tough!
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Old 08-15-2008, 9:32 PM
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Is the language too inflammatory for you? Tough!
You might want to reconsider that last comment.
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Old 08-15-2008, 9:39 PM
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Is the language too inflammatory for you? Tough!
Eeek I'm sensing either a ban in the future or maybe a Mr. Bear
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Old 08-15-2008, 9:44 PM
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I've had about enough of the 'LEO=NAZI' stuff.

Nazi's gassed people by the hundreds of thousands, they slaughters families wholesale and torture was an amusement to them.
Comparing that to LEOs is not only ridiculous it is insulting to both the LEO and the people who died at the hands of the Nazis.

I assume my position on this comparison is clear.
I was not making a generalization, the comparison was to this particular group of LEO, not all LEO. Regardless, you are correct I do not want to be insulting to those that died at the hands of the NAZIS. A better description would have been SS or BrownShirts/Sturmabteilung after all their primary function was to be an "organization that could inflict more subtle terror and obedience".
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:13 PM
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Some guy on a blog writes this and the only validation is another random person vouches for it? I'm going to need so more proof this happend. The whole situation and circumstances around it don't add up.

By the way I heard a couple days ago 2 people found bigfoot. That turned out to be true
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:25 PM
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Default Taking shots at both sides of this one sided story...

I'm not entirely schooled up on the law or police procedure, but here's my .02 cents on this:

Assuming that this guy was as clean as a whistle, it would seem that the police were wrong in the entire execution of this "visit". Regardless of the way the man wrote the letter (I'll come back to this) his description of the actions of the police are almost sterotypical of those bad small town police departments you see in tv shows. Law abiding citizens should not be paid this type of visit in the middle of the night and I would think that actions like this would be reserved for "known" or "suspected" criminals. Did they bother to see if this guy had/ has a criminal record before dropping by? I won't assume whether or not they did... yet, but if they suspected this man of illegal activity as pointed out by their "system", then how or why would they not secure a search warrant? Here I can only assume that it's because they thought they could intimidate this guy under the color of the law into being cooperative.

Now, as for the man that this happend to, we have no idea of his past and, like I touched on earlier, maybe the police response was based on how short or long his wrap sheet was. Additionally, it's obvious that he wrote his letter in an emotional state (I probably would've done the same), but look at it's effect on some of those who've posted before me. Anybody can tell a story, but add a dash of emotion, some great adjectives, and a few sympathetic listeners and bam! You have an enraged mob.

So what am I trying to get at? There's a lot of missing facts in this story that we all should wait for to come to light before we rally to support this guy or demand badges be turned in.
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