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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 08-06-2008, 12:11 PM
H2H H2H is offline
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Default surgeon rifles

anybody got one ? how do you like it ?

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/gallery/

I'm liking the scalpel: http://www.surgeonrifles.com/product...product_id=134

is it even CA legal with the AICS folding stock ?

thanks.
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  #2  
Old 08-06-2008, 12:35 PM
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Guns & Ammo did a write up in their May 2008 "Combat Arms" edition.

Here is part of the conclusion of the article by Wayne Van Zwoll:

"... On a clean target, I made a real effort to keep the Remedy still on a Caldwell rest. Three shots later I had one elongated hole, a group that measured just under a quater-inch."

I would get one, but $5k is a lot.
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  #3  
Old 08-06-2008, 12:37 PM
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A folding stock isn't a legal qualifier ... overall barrel and/or rifle-length is. And if you're shooting long-range, you probably aren't going less than a 20" barrel, so you'd be fine.

My scalpel shoots better than I can. I think the price-tag for one is closer to $3K rather than $5K ... of course, that's before you buy a scope.

Last edited by heycorey; 08-06-2008 at 12:43 PM..
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  #4  
Old 08-06-2008, 2:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2H View Post
is it even CA legal with the AICS folding stock ?

thanks.
Why not?
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  #5  
Old 08-06-2008, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heycorey View Post
A folding stock isn't a legal qualifier ... overall barrel and/or rifle-length is. And if you're shooting long-range, you probably aren't going less than a 20" barrel, so you'd be fine.

My scalpel shoots better than I can. I think the price-tag for one is closer to $3K rather than $5K ... of course, that's before you buy a scope.
did you order yours from surgeon ? how long was the wait ? thanks
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Old 08-06-2008, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by H2H View Post
did you order yours from surgeon ? how long was the wait ? thanks
They rebuilt a pre-existing rifle (already had a receiver and stock). Overall, I think it took them about six weeks (they had to order a new barrel from Bartlein). A completely new rifle might take longer.

If you're interested, I'd suggest calling them directly. I think you'll find them very helpful.
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  #7  
Old 08-06-2008, 2:35 PM
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There are a LOt of people who make rifles with this pedigree of parts. I don't know these people, but the + 5K tactical rifle market is tricky. A stock Remington Police 308 with loads it likes and the factory stock will shoot close to .24 inch at 100 yards. What they're talking about isn't miraculous. I'm waiting on one of the desert tactical Bullpups which are at least a new, interesting design. I can stick ANY heavy barreled Remington with a shilen trigger in a AICW stock and match those results. Doesn't sound worth it.

Kimber and Bushmaster will have "out of the box" custom sniper guns at around 2K with great stocks and no scopes. That makes these guns overpriced in my book. Match barrel, steel trigger guard, enlarged mount screw holes, titanium bedding blocks -- there's dozens of guys making this rifle. And Iron Brigade, who makes the new Bushie, makes the sniper rifle for DARPA, so I trust they make a hardened rifle (check out the article in the new COMBAT TACTICS magazine on your newsstands now)

BTW, the AI stock is an acquired taste . I've had three including a folder and went back to macMillans. And JAE is making the same stock as their JAE-100 for remington 700s by the fall. That is the next gun I buy -- a rem or bush 308 barreled action to go in the new JAE stock will shoot with any $5K rifle.

Bushmaster custom 700 out the door at 2K without scope:


Iron brigade Armory tuneup on 700 + $1000



Kimber Advanced Tactical



JAE rem 700 stock!

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  #8  
Old 08-06-2008, 2:46 PM
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thanks, that Bushmaster custom 700 looks nice too.
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  #9  
Old 08-06-2008, 3:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-NewYawker View Post
There are a LOt of people who make rifles with this pedigree of parts. I don't know these people, but the + 5K tactical rifle market is tricky. A stock Remington Police 308 with loads it likes and the factory stock will shoot close to .24 inch at 100 yards. What they're talking about isn't miraculous. I'm waiting on one of the desert tactical Bullpups which are at least a new, interesting design. I can stick ANY heavy barreled Remington with a shilen trigger in a AICW stock and match those results. Doesn't sound worth it.

Kimber and Bushmaster will have "out of the box" custom sniper guns at around 2K with great stocks and no scopes. That makes these guns overpriced in my book. Match barrel, steel trigger guard, enlarged mount screw holes, titanium bedding blocks -- there's dozens of guys making this rifle. And Iron Brigade, who makes the new Bushie, makes the sniper rifle for DARPA, so I trust they make a hardened rifle (check out the article in the new COMBAT TACTICS magazine on your newsstands now)

BTW, the AI stock is an acquired taste . I've had three including a folder and went back to macMillans. And JAE is making the same stock as their JAE-100 for remington 700s by the fall. That is the next gun I buy -- a rem or bush 308 barreled action to go in the new JAE stock will shoot with any $5K rifle.

Bushmaster custom 700 out the door at 2K without scope:


Iron brigade Armory tuneup on 700 + $1000



Kimber Advanced Tactical



JAE rem 700 stock!

Come and shoot with us sometime. Those look mighty pritty on the bench..... lets see how they do in a match setting.
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  #10  
Old 08-06-2008, 3:37 PM
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I filled out the dros paperwork on my action yesterday. Darn the 10 day wait!
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  #11  
Old 08-06-2008, 3:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-NewYawker View Post
There are a LOt of people who make rifles with this pedigree of parts. I don't know these people, but the + 5K tactical rifle market is tricky. A stock Remington Police 308 with loads it likes and the factory stock will shoot close to .24 inch at 100 yards. What they're talking about isn't miraculous. I'm waiting on one of the desert tactical Bullpups which are at least a new, interesting design. I can stick ANY heavy barreled Remington with a shilen trigger in a AICW stock and match those results. Doesn't sound worth it.

Kimber and Bushmaster will have "out of the box" custom sniper guns at around 2K with great stocks and no scopes. That makes these guns overpriced in my book. Match barrel, steel trigger guard, enlarged mount screw holes, titanium bedding blocks -- there's dozens of guys making this rifle. And Iron Brigade, who makes the new Bushie, makes the sniper rifle for DARPA, so I trust they make a hardened rifle (check out the article in the new COMBAT TACTICS magazine on your newsstands now)

BTW, the AI stock is an acquired taste . I've had three including a folder and went back to macMillans. And JAE is making the same stock as their JAE-100 for remington 700s by the fall. That is the next gun I buy -- a rem or bush 308 barreled action to go in the new JAE stock will shoot with any $5K rifle.
There is more to these rifles than just the price tag. There are many features of the surgeon action alone that make it worthwhile. These extra features come at a premium. You may never need these extra features. Many may be just fine with a 700 action. Most shooters who spend all their shooting lives behind a bench will never know the difference. But the guy who spends a few grand to fly out to RO for a class, just to have his 700 bolt handle come off in his hand on day 2 (and finish the course with a loaner), may think the surgeon bolt has some advantages. And it doesn't stop there...
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  #12  
Old 08-06-2008, 4:04 PM
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For the record, Surgeon manufactures parts of the pedigree previously mentioned. And other top gunsmiths build rifles using Surgeon Actions.
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  #13  
Old 08-06-2008, 5:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heycorey View Post
For the record, Surgeon manufactures parts of the pedigree previously mentioned. And other top gunsmiths build rifles using Surgeon Actions.
Please tell me which ones.

I'm not trying to flame any person or company -- $5K without a scope (for the Surgeon with the AI stock is top of the tactical rifle market -- and so I'd like to know what parts and what makes them better than the pieces used by iron Brigade, Shilen, Robar, etc.

Every year I go to the SHOT SHow an operator or instructor I trust comes up to me and says "so-and-so" at Table "whatever" is the guy making the "best tactical rifle." I've just heard this so many times -- and seen so many rifles built on AI stocks advertised in shotgun news and gun magazines -- you guys clearly own these rifles -- please explain EXACTLY what it is about this action that makes them so good?
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  #14  
Old 08-06-2008, 6:45 PM
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X-New Yawker, of the smiths that I personally know will build/use Surgeon Actions (other than Surgeon themselves): GA Precision, Patriot Arms, KMW (Terry Cross). I'm sure there are others. But I'm sure they'll build a rifle off of other actions as well. Some actions might requiring some truing work. A Surgeon Action is trued to begin with. They also have an integral weaver rail machined into the top of the action. Bottomline, I know of no one (as in some pretty experienced shooters) that doesn't think very highly of Surgeon Actions.

But I didn't post in this thread to start a pissing match. The OP asked about Surgeon Rifles. I've got one, so I posted about my experience. It's a damn fine rifle. I've also got a GAP "Rock" (trued Remington Action) that's equally up to the task.

I'm sure Robar makes a fine rifle. As do others. And as I suggested, if the OP were to actually talk to someone at Surgeon, he might get a better idea about availability and/or cost than he would from any of us. Most precision rifles are in the 2-3K range. More or less is usually dependent on the kind of components you want to use and how much customization (machine work) you want done. You want fluting, integral brake, aftermarket brake, tactical knob, cerakote/duracoat, etcetera, etcetera? It's probably gonna cost you extra.

You've got your favorites? Good on ya! I got mine. And I'm only a few steps behind you on ordering one of the new-fangled bullpups.


PSS - I also agree with you on AICS stocks being an acquired taste. Frankly, I prefer the feel of a McMillan A5 over the AICS. But the folder does just that; which means it fits in a smaller, slightly less conspicuous case when travelling ... and it fits nicely in the back my Tactical 350Z too.

Last edited by heycorey; 08-06-2008 at 7:24 PM..
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  #15  
Old 08-06-2008, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by X-NewYawker View Post
Please tell me which ones.

I'm not trying to flame any person or company -- $5K without a scope (for the Surgeon with the AI stock is top of the tactical rifle market -- and so I'd like to know what parts and what makes them better than the pieces used by iron Brigade, Shilen, Robar, etc.

Every year I go to the SHOT SHow an operator or instructor I trust comes up to me and says "so-and-so" at Table "whatever" is the guy making the "best tactical rifle." I've just heard this so many times -- and seen so many rifles built on AI stocks advertised in shotgun news and gun magazines -- you guys clearly own these rifles -- please explain EXACTLY what it is about this action that makes them so good?
If you want to know what sets the surgeon action apart from a rem 700 variant then i can tell you. (Im not to clear on your question so i may be way off.) The surgeon has the rail machined as part of the receiver. This gives the receiver extra strength which is especially important on long/heavy barreled rifles. With the barrel free floating way out there there is a heck of a lot of torque on the receiver and you want all the strength/stiffness you can get. On top of the integral rail you also get an integral recoil lug built into the action. Because of this you can have a longer tenon on the barrel making for a stiffer/stronger barrel to receiver mating. You also dont have to worry about pinning a recoil lug or even have to worry about the reciever face/recoil lug/barrel shoulder being perfectly true to the bore. The bolt lugs and bolt raceways are machined to extremely tight tolerances and are cut perfectly in line to the center of the bore. If you want a rem 700 to be the same as a surgeon then you have to make sure that the threads/ bolt raceway/ and receiver lugs are all trued to the same axis which is pretty much impossible without the use of a wire EDM. A surgeon in made from the start in every way so that everything is true to the same axis. A surgeon also has a 1 piece bolt knob that you dont have to worry about breaking off. Thats all i can think of for now.
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Old 08-06-2008, 6:55 PM
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my friend just got a Terry cross Built rifle on a surgeon action , hes a trained sniper and is very happy with its performance out to 1000

Also another builder that has a great rep and builds many platforms for Law enforcement is out of Beverly hills and is easy to reach is
http://www.tacticaloperations.com/
He also has a strong following on sniper central
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Old 08-06-2008, 7:32 PM
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From what Terry told me a few months ago, he is no longer taking orders. He is going to build several models and sell them on his website. KMWLRS.com The few people I know who own his rifles love them.
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Old 08-06-2008, 9:25 PM
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BTW -- the KEY is the elbow pads -- IF you are shooting at Angeles where the concrete benches tear up your elbow on recoil.
I have soft elbow pads in my pack already for shooting in prone or on concrete benches.
Seems that I need hard camo'd ones to make my coldbore shots...
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Old 08-06-2008, 9:31 PM
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Are you Walt's kid?
I wish, but no.

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The hard ones (and those are knee pads on my elbow) slide on recoil instead of sticking.
I use hard kneepads on my knees when I have to jump into position.
I could never stand the hard ones on my elbows BECAUSE they slide around and they tend to be too high-profile.
I use soft kneepads as elbow pads now.
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Old 08-06-2008, 9:33 PM
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I cleaned up aLOT of this topic. I don't care who started it BUT flaming other members and calling members names WILL NOT be tolerated!
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Old 08-06-2008, 9:33 PM
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I agree. Soft for work. I only use the hard for Angeles. I've had soft ones tear shooting an AR-50 there.
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Old 08-06-2008, 9:33 PM
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I cleaned up aLOT of this topic. I don't care who started it BUT flaming other members and calling members names WILL NOT be tolerated!
Thanks for the save, webmaster!
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Old 08-06-2008, 9:49 PM
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can we stick to the original topic ? thanks . I appreciate all the constructive comments.
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Old 08-06-2008, 9:51 PM
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can we stick to the original topic ? thanks . I appreciate all the constructive comments.
Get some kneepads.
Only then can you decide what rifle to get.
Can't go wrong with a Surgeon action though.
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Old 08-07-2008, 8:09 AM
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Since I've owned a stock 700P and now a rifle built on a surgeon action, perhaps I can share my personal experience and lend some perspective as to whether it's worth purchasing a surgeon action.

A stock 700 action is a good action and can do quite well in most circumstances, but it is not perfect and has some issues that can and does need fixing depending on how you use your rifle. While I've shot many that were amazingly accurate they can't really compare to a customized 700 or other higher end rifles. Take a stock 700 and put a large number of shots in a short time (say 200+ rounds within 20 minutes) and shoot it at 600+ yards. Your going to see the shots wander a bit from it's zero. Under 200 yards it's not that noticeable, but further out it becomes very apparent. Now, how do I know it's the rifle and not the shooter. I noticed this at the range with a number of friends and we compared the stock 700P (it was mines at the time) to an AI-AWP and a Rem 700 built by R&D. Those two rifles didn't display the same behavior as my 700P with multiple shooters. Now this isn't a criticism of the Remington, as I saw the same issue with a stock Savage and Winchester.

So why not just get a trued and blueprinted 700? No reason at all. A customized 700 is an awesome platform, but when you add in the cost of truing, properly installing the scope base, adding a side bolt release like the Surgeon, it's no longer the great value it appeared to be. In fact you're now in the same price range as a Surgeon action.

As to the durability issue, for a purely range rifle, it's a moot point. I can be pretty clumsy, and I've never done anything stupid enough at a range, that the durability issue ever play a factor. However, in the field it's a different story. It's funny that Straightshooter mentions the broken bolt handle. The exact same thing happened to me in a class and I wound up needing to use a loaner to finish my class. I can't say with a 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure the Surgeon bolt would have survived the thrashing my rifle took because of my clumsiness (on a side note, this incident was also why I started using USO scopes). In the end I wound up having to replace the barrel and the recoil lug to get my rifle back on track. It worked fine, but I lost faith in the rifle. What this long winded account shows is that I probably would have saved some money and a lot of time and grief if I had started off with a better setup from the get go. Now the 700P did more than it's fair share for me, but I think I put it through more than it was designed for. That's my fault not the rifle's.

As to whether a surgeon with an AICS 2.0 is legal in CA. Perfectly fine, though I'd probably not go with a 2.0 unless I absolutely need the compactness or just plain hate dealing with the cheekpiece when cleaning. Good luck on your decision. Oh and to whet your appetite a bit, here's my GAP built Surgeon on a 1.5:





And as heycorey said, the price is closer to $3K than $5K. Minus the scope of course.
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  #26  
Old 08-07-2008, 9:08 AM
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Great looking rifle!
"blue printing" and truing and beefing up a 700 is the way to go if you want to build on a remington action you already have. the surgeon action sounds like it comes out of the box that way.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:19 AM
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the surgeon action sounds like it comes out of the box that way.
That's correct.
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Old 08-07-2008, 8:19 PM
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thanks for the feedbacks !
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Old 07-02-2009, 1:56 PM
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well I have one on the way ! took a year to save the money.... Mcmillan a5 desert stock + FDE action/barrel and 24" barrel...Randall will have a little bit of work soon
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:01 PM
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My next rifle will be built around a Surgeon. Buy Once Cry Once.
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