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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 08-14-2015, 12:46 AM
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Default Sig Sauer 516: Featureless Build

The SigTalk version of my thread's gotten referenced by bad journalists. LOL

Idiots can't even use spell check nor utilize proper firearms nomenclature.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/...ssault-weapon/

Quote:
On the sigtalk forum, there’s a discussion about how a Sig Sauer can be modified to make it legal in California — removing the grip is one such modification. Other weapons manufacturers looking to sell in Cailfornia [sic] used to outfit semiautomatic rifles with a “bullet button” which requires a special button to be depressed — fittingly, by the tip of a rifle round — to release the clip [sic], to meet the state’s fixed-magazine requirement. But that workaround was outlawed last year by the state Legislature.





This information was already posted in the featureless rifle thread, but I've created it's own thread for the purposes of linking and future updates.

Documenting my featureless build on the Sig Sauer 516 Patrol Short-Piston AR-15. What better way than to do so on CA's #1 firearms forum?

If you are not familiar with CA firearms legislation, see here:
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/regagunfaqs

Basically, many firearms are banned by name and for those that aren't, CA has defined certain "ASSault Weapon" features. To combat this, local CA firearms enthusiasts developed what is known as the "Bullet Button" magazine lock. Negating the detachable magazine function allows you to retain all other features with exception to other items banned by name such as silencers. Legally owned magazines over 10 rounds CANNOT be attached to a semiautomatic rifle utilizing a magazine lock.

What does "featureless" mean? Well, it means if I remove the "ASSault Weapon" features as defined in CA PC, I may utilize the standard magazine release, the oh so nice ambidextrous magazine release, and any legally owned magazines over 10 rounds. NY has a similar situation and frankly, they're worse off than CA.


The following is my documented journey to hopefully aid other members/newbs in their firearms enthusiast journeys or at least provide a good laugh to those dastardly members that moved to free states.

Why a AR platform and specifically the Sig 516? A few reasons. . .
1. Parts compatibility of the AR platform

2. My other semi-auto rifles are also piston driven: Sig 556 Gen2 Classic and DSA/Imbel FAL; granted they're long stroke gas-piston designs, but I digress.

3. I tried DI a while back and absolutely hated the gas in my facial region; quickly sold the rifle.

4. The Sig AR line has inherent ambi features and enhancements:
QD cups on the receiver and rails
Extended bolt catch
Ambi Safety (missing in this particular rifle; likely generational)
Ambi Mag catch/release (missing in this particular rile; either generational or removed by original FFL)

5. I was going to purchase a new Sig M400, but found this 516 for about the same price as the M400, if not cheaper.

6. Let's face it, I'm also a Sig fanboy. lol


OEM Form purchased in a transaction from another CGN member; as far as I can tell, I'm the 3rd owner:
Sig 516 Calguns Transaction



Removed relevant CA "ASSault Weapon" features as defined in CA PC:
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/genchar2
Flash hider
Pistol Grip
Telescoping Stock


Replacements / Add-ons:
Surefire SFMB 556 SOCOM Muzzle Brake:
http://www.surefire.com/sfmb-556-1-2-28.html

Norgon Ambi Mag Release (OEM Sig Ambi Mag Release was missing):
http://www.norgon.com/Home_files/AmbiCatch.htm

Odinworks XMR Extended Mag Release:
http://www.odinworks.com/ODIN_Works_XMR_p/acc-xmr.htm

Thordsen Customs FRS-15 Stock Kit (Enhanced):
http://www.thordsencustoms.com/frs-15-stock.htm

CAA Cheekriser:
http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/...SE-x780384.htm

Battle Arms Development 90 Degree Ambi Safety Selector with Crank Levers:
http://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com...agpul-od-green

Magpul XTM Handstop Kit:
https://www.magpul.com/products/xtm%C2%AE-hand-stop-kit

Magpul MBUS Pro LR Sight Combo:
https://www.magpul.com/products/mbus...%E2%80%93-rear
https://www.magpul.com/products/mbus...E2%80%93-front

Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard (Not Pictured):
https://www.magpul.com/products/enha...%80%93-ar15-m4

Magpul MS4 Sling (Not Pictured):
https://www.magpul.com/products/ms4-dual-qd-sling-gen-2






Things learned:
When using the FRS-15 stock, the Battle Arms ambi safety right side requires either a thin lever or short crank. I went with standard crank and it's affecting my palm area. 45 degree selector or shorter throw is mandatory; thumb is too short to full rotate to fire.

Thordsen buffer tube cover slides a bit back under fire. I've tightened down the allen screws as much as I could, but it still does this. Not a big deal. I may add some filler to close the gap between the end of the buffer tube and inside the Thordsen cover.

Norgon ambi mag release is a real nice touch. I haven't handled the OEM Sig ambi release, but I have a good feeling that the Norgon is better ergonomically and quality wise.

Odinworks XMR or other extended mag release is mandatory for me. The XMR has slop/play/wiggle on the Sig 516 lower. Not too bad, but I would've liked it a bit more stable.

The BB spring does NOT work with the standard mag release. I've been on this forum for a while now and oddly have never read about this. Wish I knew that before hand, but good thing I a standard release spring lying around.

CAA Cheekriser is absolutely not needed with iron sights and likely will not be needed with a low mounted scope on this platform.

Magpul MBUS PRO LR combo is super slim and dead on accurate. Used the 50 meter/25 meter conversion target from ARF.Com to sight in the rifle. Tight groupings at 50, but I will need to test the elevation knob at longer ranges.

I haven't figured out my QD cup "sweet spots" for the sling. I'll probably stick to 2 point, but I'll keep playing with it.


Additional, soon to be or considered modifications/upgrades. . .

Return BADASS 90 Degree levers and purchase Ares Armor 55 Degree Ambi Safety.
Reason: Ares Ambi has basically 360 Degree lever placement. BADASS 45 Degree version requires modification to use in normal receivers which would void the warranty of the part. Ergonomically, the Ares Armor version would be best given the ability to place the levers where ever you wanted.
Gavel Ambidextrous Safety - Ares Armor Inc Builds quality Rifle components, for less

Replacing OEM charging handle with Armageddon GMS-15 charging handle. Not necessary, but would be a nice touch to complete the ambi functionality of the rifle and in the event that I add a supplemental long range DI upper.
Charging Handle | Armageddon Tactical

Lancer Extended CF Handguard? Not really a fan of the CF or requirement to remove the guard to clean, but it's the only real option out there without extensive customization. I may just hold off for a while. Hopefully, Sig starts selling the new style guards separately or I find an alternative route.
Sig Sauer Replacement Handguards - LCH516-CX-L Replacement Handguard for Sig 516 - Extended Length w/Top Rail

Probably going to add an inexpensive tactical scope. Nothing hardcore, just a range/training tool. 1x4 or 1x6 would be ideal. I'm thinking the Primary Arms 1x6.
http://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_A...p/paps1-6x.htm


Side note: Black Rain Ordinance uses the FRS stock and similar features in one of their builds for CA/NY owners:



Thanks for viewing. More updates to come. . .

Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 02-12-2018 at 3:41 PM.. Reason: Photobuck sucks
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  #2  
Old 08-17-2015, 2:25 PM
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Default 8/17/15 update

Installed the Magpul Enchanced Trigger Guard. I used the OEM roll pin as the one provided by Magpul was a hair oversized and difficult to start.

Returned the BADASS Ambi Selector and replaced with the Ares Amour Gavel 55 Degree Ambi Safety mentioned previously.

The Surefire SFMB-556 makes a massive difference it recoil management. Rapid, follow-up shots were a breeze and definitely a pleasure to shoot. The issue is I ran out of rounds too quickly

In the photos below, you can also see a close up of the Sig inherent extended bolt catch lever, the Odinworks XMR Extended Magazine Release, and the Norgon Ambi Magazine Release upgrade.


Safety Configuration

Safe: I had it set to 15 degrees on the left side as the inherent QD cup on the Sig lower got in the way of a comfortable grip requiring a bit more work to manipulate the safety when using the FRS stock. I will be using my thumb to manipulate.

Left Side



Right Side





Fire: I set the right side controls to return the weapon to safe using my index finger as my thumb would not be able to reach the left side lever using the FRS stock. As you will see below, I have it set forward so that it does not interfere with my trigger finger.

Right Side



Left Side




I didn't provide it before so here are photos of the new recently released Magpul MBUS PRO LR (Long Range) rear sight and sight picture. You will notice the 200-600 meter preset wheel with 50 meter increments. I have yet to test the longer distances, but I am zeroed at 50/200 meters so in theory the presets should be accurate at the other distances.

Small Aperture (Long Range)



Large Aperture (CQB or low light)




Sight picture. The MBUS front sight has not changed so you would compare this sight picture against the standard MBUS Pro rear or other sights in your possession.

Small Aperture (Long Range)



Large Aperture (CQB or low light)


Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 09-11-2015 at 1:16 PM..
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  #3  
Old 08-17-2015, 9:48 PM
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Nice rig. I will follow your progress and updates.
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  #4  
Old 08-17-2015, 10:05 PM
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I just noticed that I didn't show the zero target used from AR15.com.

You can find the iron sight zeroing target here:
Improved 25M AR15A2 / A3 / A4 & AR15 Carbine Zero Targets - Calibrated for 50/200M, 100M, 300M


I think I'll transfer the Primary Arms 30mm red dot that I currently have on my Sig 556 to see how it runs. I'll use the red dot zeroing targets here:
UPDATED: Zero Targets Optimized for Red Dot Style Optics (Aimpoint, EOTech, etc...) AR-15 & AK-47

You can't see the reactive target that was stuck on at the top of IDPA target. I tested that one at 50 yards and had a good triangulated group. To test further, I let an older friend shoot at the same target and although he couldn't see as well as I could, his grouping was also consistent at 50.

I'll take a photo of it tomorrow. It's in my trunk right now. Ignore the holes on the cardboard, it was an old IDPA target I used as a backing.


Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 08-17-2015 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:55 PM
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Alright, I took the dog out for a walk then grabbed the target on the way in. . . I need to point out that we could not see the red center of the reactive target at 50 yards. All we could see was black and aimed for the center. The deviation is likely due to our human abilities, but none-the-less the groupings are consistent.

Here's the older guy's target at 50 yards with iron sights. He took 4 shots because we couldn't see where the first shot went from 50 yards. When we brought it in, we realized it was a smidge left of the rest of his grouping.




If you look closely, there are two reactive targets there; mine was the first target and his was the 2nd target placed over mine. I tried to peel back the older gentleman's target, but it was bonded to my target. To prove that there were two, I left the reactive target half peeled to show the relation between the the reactive target holes and the holes in the IDPA target. This was my 3 shot grouping at 50 yards with iron sights. You can faintly see the red center of the target in the peeled away reactive target. I was a tad high.


Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 08-17-2015 at 11:00 PM..
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  #6  
Old 08-19-2015, 1:41 PM
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thanks very much for the info,
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Old 10-02-2015, 3:20 PM
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Ok, I transferred my primary arms 30mm red dot from my Sig 556 to this rifle. Let's see how it fairs after a few uses.

Will report back later.
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Old 12-21-2015, 2:21 PM
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I screwed up my zero from playing with the PA red dot configuration and co-witness stuff. I'll have to recheck when I get a chance.
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:33 PM
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Update: 4/22/16

Hi folks. I noticed that the P516/SBR gas block does not have a bayonet lug. Does anyone know if it will fit on the Patrol model?

The reason why I'm asking is I bought a modified VLTOR CASV from a member of the Sig 556 forum and the bayonet lug is preventing it from locking in place.

I suppose I could cut it off or just leave it. It's not too much of an issue as the handguard is fairly secure. Dunno if it'll handle a drop though.

I'll also need HK 416 or MR556 sights for sure.

Don't mind the Calguns "feet in the photo" tradition:





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Old 10-12-2016, 1:20 PM
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Update:

Swapped out my Thordsen for the Exile. They're both good, but I think that I prefer the Exile, although I loose control over the left safety selector one handed.

Sig 516 with custom VLTOR CASV and HK 416 Sights.


Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 07-28-2017 at 1:17 PM..
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Old 12-12-2016, 6:03 PM
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Default VLTOR CASV Handguard Modificaiton Update

Ok, considering that the 516's railed gasblock was interfering with the VLTOR and preventing it from locking all the way, I modified the handguard further to make room for the gasblock. This allowed me to use flip-up BUIS for normal AR's so I ditched the HK sights. When folded, the sights are flush with the elevated rail from the VLTOR CASV and since the raised section was present, I used a low mount on the Bushnell TRS-25 to achieve a lower 1/3 co-witness. I am pleased with the results.

Note that the BUIS and ambi charging handle are from the newest versions of the 516. Sig did well to utilize Samson sights and the ambi parts.











The hanguard completely clears the bayonet lug and allows the CASV to completely lock into place. It is essentially a free-floated handguard now. Best of all, I have a longer grip placement and do not need to remove the handguard to service the piston rod. Plus, I didn't need to spend $250-300 for the Lancer CF extended.





I haven't test fired since this modification, but I did spend some time with two of my other favorite piston rifles. True, long-stroke piston operated goodness.

The FAL was a blast to shoot as always. I had forgotten how light the Sig 556's trigger was. I have a bunch of MFI parts and a 551 lower that I need to install on this gal to give it a more true Swiss feel.


Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 07-28-2017 at 1:22 PM..
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Old 12-20-2016, 7:46 PM
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I have little hands so I am thinking FRS-15 Stock Kit, but they are not in stock:
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:18 PM
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Nice work OP.

Just wanted to see how many rounds you put through the Sig 516 and if you encountered any reliability issues. Thanks.
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Old 12-21-2016, 1:07 PM
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More rounds than I can count, but I estimate over 2k by me. I'm not sure how many rounds the 1st and 2nd owner put in. I've tested this rifle after each modification (except the latest mods) and still have yet to clean it. The same grease has been sitting in the upper since I first tore it down.

I have had zero reliability issues with this gun using various brands and grain of 5.56 and .223 (mixed mil-surp and new). I even used about 100 rounds of Wolf steel without issue. I ran a bore snake through the bbl after, but that's it.

This rifle is a tack driver for sure. My other rifles must be jealous. I'll head to the range this week to sight in the new sights/optic and will report back.

Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 12-21-2016 at 1:18 PM..
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Old 12-21-2016, 1:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neomedic View Post
Nice work OP.

Just wanted to see how many rounds you put through the Sig 516 and if you encountered any reliability issues. Thanks.

I know you didn't ask me but I have two. The first generation and the second generation models. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 8000 rounds in my gen 1 and about 1500 in the gen 2. No issues to report. They feed everything.

They seem to run a lot cleaner than my direct impingement AR's.
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Old 12-21-2016, 1:45 PM
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Sapper knows what's up. Thanks for adding on buddy.

The newest versions are the Gen 2.5. They have no bayonet lugs and have ambi CH, safety, and samson sights. They also use the Sig crop circle logo as the rollmark.

Some of the latest models use different handguards.

Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 02-05-2017 at 8:58 PM..
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:20 PM
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Thanks

Great Report
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:19 AM
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Thanks for this post and your tips. I own the SIG 516 and am in the process of making it "safe" for shooting going forward (also with the hopes I can give it to my son when I pass on).

I got the following for my SIG (tried to get some of the items you recommended, but they were no longer made or available):

Titan Compensator:
http://stores.sjcguns.com/lund-sjc-2...n-compensator/

XMR2 Extended Mag release:
https://www.odinworks.com/XMR_GEN_II_p/acc-xmr-2.htm

BAD Ambi safety:
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...292-77073.aspx

Norgon AMBI mag release:
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...496-23478.aspx

Magpul fixed stock mil spec (back ordered):
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...92-115812.aspx

Exile Machine Hammerhead grip:
https://www.amazon.com/Exile-Machine...ammerhead+grip

Exile Machine Fin:
https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/ex...rh-101244.html

I will try both grips, see which I prefer. Will post pics once all the parts arrive and are fitted to the weapon.

Thanks again for this post!
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Old 12-30-2016, 11:50 AM
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Singularity, you'll need a magpul MIAD grip to attach the Exile Fin to. They make the Fin for other brands of modular pistol grips too.

I know you mentioned short fingers, but if the length of pull on the Fixed Carbine Stock is too short, try the extended buttpad for the PRS stock like I have on mine. You could alternatively pin a collapsible stock or order a complete rifle length kit.

I recommend the Ares Gavel over the BAD for the shorter throw and ability to adjust the position of the levers.

Good luck to you.
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Old 12-30-2016, 5:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
Singularity, you'll need a magpul MIAD grip to attach the Exile Fin to. They make the Fin for other brands of modular pistol grips too.

I know you mentioned short fingers, but if the length of pull on the Fixed Carbine Stock is too short, try the extended buttpad for the PRS stock like I have on mine. You could alternatively pin a collapsible stock or order a complete rifle length kit.

I recommend the Ares Gavel over the BAD for the shorter throw and ability to adjust the position of the levers.

Good luck to you.
I could not find the Ares Gavel anywhere. My Sig came with that magpul MIAD grip I believe. Nevermind, it's not the MIAD. Something I will have to pick up I guess.
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Last edited by Singularity; 12-30-2016 at 6:01 PM..
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Old 12-30-2016, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
I could not find the Ares Gavel anywhere. My Sig came with that magpul MIAD grip I believe.
If it's modular then it's the MIAD. Double check to be sure.

This place has the Gavel:

http://www.vcdefense.com/ares-armor-...fety-selector/
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Old 12-30-2016, 6:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
If it's modular then it's the MIAD. Double check to be sure.

This place has the Gavel:

http://www.vcdefense.com/ares-armor-...fety-selector/
They must have HAD it:

"Sorry but this item is currently unavailable.

Please check back at a later stage."

I searched when you recommended it I couldn't find it. BAD was the next best recommended ambi safety.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:23 AM
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New guy, I have a SIG Patrol, I was on a calguns FB today, there is a guy on there that making a new stock, handle, supposedly better than the exile fin. Just what I read, new to the Ar stuff, but I did buy two Lowers before the first of the year.


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Old 01-24-2017, 1:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sig191145 View Post
New guy, I have a SIG Patrol, I was on a calguns FB today, there is a guy on there that making a new stock, handle, supposedly better than the exile fin. Just what I read, new to the Ar stuff, but I did buy two Lowers before the first of the year.


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There are a few to hit the market soon. You have until 2018 to decide so I'd recommend that you wait a little while before deciding.

The 516 will limit you in handguard options as you can see from my thread, but that shouldn't be a factor for featureless.
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Old 01-24-2017, 1:13 AM
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I've ported my post from the Featureless Rifle Thread to keep a record of updates and my examples for you all...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...postcount=1472



Ok, I spent the day converting and re-converting my rifles to featureless. Some of these rifles have made appearances in previous posts, but here is the collection. This is still not all of my tools. My apologies for the lack of classic Calguns "feet in the photo" tradition. lol

1. Sig Sauer 556 Classic 16" bbl: munkeeboi/FinGrip.com very high quality grip fin, MFI Swiss SANS height top rail with rear diopter, MFI Swiss SANS height front sight hood with fiber optic, and Rousch Sports A2 FoxHole $15 muzzle brake.




2. DSA (LMT made receiver) / Brazilian Imbel 21" bbl traditional FAL with ODG furniture: Purchased from a local member as featureless. I believe that the fin is also munkeeboi's from memory, but I am not for certain. The muzzle device is a DSA FAL SA58 muzzle brake.




3. Sig Sauer 516 16" bbl with discontinued Foliage furniture: Magpul Fixed Carbine Stock with PRS buttpad, Magpul MIAD with Exile Machine backfin, SureFire MB556 Muzzle Brake, custom VLTOR CASV handguard, Sig Sauer/Samson BUIS, Sig Sauer ambi-charging handle, Norgon ambi mag release, Ares Amor Gavel ambi-safety, OdinWorks extended mag release Gen1, Bushell TRS-25 with low mount to achieve absolute co-witness with the raised rail on the CASV.




4. Cheapy Build, Anderson lower with PSA Freedom mid-length A2 upper 16" bbl with FDE furniture: Magpul CTR with Magpul .70 extended buttpad and eBay $10 stock pin kit (I put the locking lever's pin back in to make it semi-permanent; totally cost effective, clean, and worth it), Magpul MIAD with Exile Machine backfin, Rousch Sports A2 Foxhole $15 muzzle brake, Magpul M-Lok mid-length handguard with M-Lok AFG, Primary Arms 30mm red dot and cantilever mount, Sig Sauer ambi-charging handle, Magpul rear BUIS, and $17 Rousch Sports ambi-safety.


Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 07-28-2017 at 1:28 PM..
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  #26  
Old 03-29-2017, 9:40 PM
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Funjeff Funjeff is offline
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Sold

Last edited by Funjeff; 04-29-2017 at 11:55 PM..
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  #27  
Old 03-29-2017, 9:49 PM
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Very nice! You have the Gen2 variant as well. Did you paint the receiver and rails or is that just FDE in low lighting? I can't tell if it's green or FDE.
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Old 07-28-2017, 1:29 PM
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Since photobucket sucks, I've moved to Flickr and was able to salvage most of the photos.
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Old 02-12-2018, 3:35 PM
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The SigTalk version of my thread's gotten referenced by bad journalists. LOL

Idiots can't even use spell check nor utilize proper firearms nomenclature.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/...ssault-weapon/

Quote:
On the sigtalk forum, there’s a discussion about how a Sig Sauer can be modified to make it legal in California — removing the grip is one such modification. Other weapons manufacturers looking to sell in Cailfornia [sic] used to outfit semiautomatic rifles with a “bullet button” which requires a special button to be depressed — fittingly, by the tip of a rifle round — to release the clip [sic], to meet the state’s fixed-magazine requirement. But that workaround was outlawed last year by the state Legislature.

Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 02-12-2018 at 3:42 PM..
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Old 02-13-2018, 2:39 PM
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Double famous!


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