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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 05-08-2015, 10:19 PM
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Cartridge case==box cartridges are enclosed in. ?????

End thought.
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  #42  
Old 05-09-2015, 1:05 PM
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I wish I could get firing pins micro stamped with the second amendment on them. I wouldnt mind if the government wanted to examine my brass then.
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  #43  
Old 05-09-2015, 9:51 PM
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I am not sure what is worse long term for gun owners, a roster without micro stamping or one with micro stamping. I always figured that long term we have a better chance of getting rid of the roster if it had micro stamping as a requirement.
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  #44  
Old 05-10-2015, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tylenol9999 View Post
I am not sure what is worse long term for gun owners, a roster without micro stamping or one with micro stamping. I always figured that long term we have a better chance of getting rid of the roster if it had micro stamping as a requirement.
The California roster of Safe Handguns was a law designed to prevent unsafe handguns from being sold here. NOT to leave an identifying mark on a spent cartridge.
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  #45  
Old 05-10-2015, 10:42 AM
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The California roster of Safe Handguns was a law designed to prevent unsafe handguns from being sold here. NOT to leave an identifying mark on a spent cartridge.
Slight, but very important, correction to what you wrote.

The roster was SOLD as preventing "unsafe" handguns being sold in CA. It's true design and intent from day one was to limit and eventually eliminate handgun sales in the state. It has never been about safety.
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  #46  
Old 05-10-2015, 10:58 AM
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The roster was SOLD as preventing "unsafe" handguns being sold in CA. It's true design and intent from day one was to limit and eventually eliminate handgun sales in the state. It has never been about safety.
QFT.
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  #47  
Old 05-10-2015, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rero360 View Post
Slight, but very important, correction to what you wrote.

The roster was SOLD as preventing "unsafe" handguns being sold in CA. It's true design and intent from day one was to limit and eventually eliminate handgun sales in the state. It has never been about safety.
Right.

Part of that was establishing that the government could establish that there are 'good' guns and 'bad' guns, and that it gets to make the determination of which is which.
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  #48  
Old 05-11-2015, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by nbirnbaum2 View Post
I wish I could get firing pins micro stamped with the second amendment on them. I wouldnt mind if the government wanted to examine my brass then.
Dicks.

I would make a firing pin that just had dicks. Not even very accurate representations, like, middle-school doodles of dicks.

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  #49  
Old 05-12-2015, 3:55 AM
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Default The roster was designed to limit access to firearms

Safety has ZERO to do with it. The entire family of single action Colt revolvers is specifically exempt from testing. The 1873 Colt design has been unsafe to carry with a bullet under the hammer since introduction. Yet, it is somehow rendered 'not unsafe' by the azzhats in Sacramento.
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  #50  
Old 05-17-2015, 8:30 PM
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One question and it may have been asked and answered. Once a case has been stamped, what happens if you reload it? Could you potentially have several stamps on the case which would defeat the purpose of the law?
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  #51  
Old 05-17-2015, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarhead4 View Post
One question and it may have been asked and answered. Once a case has been stamped, what happens if you reload it? Could you potentially have several stamps on the case which would defeat the purpose of the law?
Yes, of course.

That possibility, among others, was clearly communicated to the Legislature while the bill was being considered.

They voted for it anyway.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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  #52  
Old 05-18-2015, 6:04 AM
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Of course they voted for it. They aren't interested in using microstamping to actually solve crimes.

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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Yes, of course.

That possibility, among others, was clearly communicated to the Legislature while the bill was being considered.

They voted for it anyway.
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  #53  
Old 05-18-2015, 6:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarhead4 View Post
One question and it may have been asked and answered. Once a case has been stamped, what happens if you reload it? Could you potentially have several stamps on the case which would defeat the purpose of the law?
Ammunition control is high on the antis agenda. Thats why we are seeing alot of laws banning internet sales, licenses to buy ammo and components. I expect if microstamping survives the legal challenges, they will ban reloading.
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  #54  
Old 05-18-2015, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by El Toro View Post
Ammunition control is high on the antis agenda. Thats why we are seeing alot of laws banning internet sales, licenses to buy ammo and components. I expect if microstamping survives the legal challenges, they will ban reloading.

Funny I was thinking the same thing. One micro stamping is in reloading is out.
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  #55  
Old 05-29-2015, 10:49 AM
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Talking DOJ bureacrats smart, not Harris...

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No snark. When Brown was AG, he cleaned up DOJ and brought in some very competent people. Many of those remain at DOJ under Harris. And Harris is more politically aggressive, especially on our issue.
Thank you. I did not know that about DOJ staff.
Clearly Harris is not a good leader, people wise- judging by her hiring practices, anyway- update from the LAT who first broke the story:

"David Beltran, a spokesman for the state Department of Justice, said Kiel was placed on paid leave April 30 — the date he was arrested. He is paid $67,416 annually as (Harris') deputy director of community affairs."


As to politically smart Harris, ie the POTUS Prettiest AG, I am still curious about the media blackout, post Uncle Leland, on connections in San Fran...

I found it odd that no one has looked into why Harris' bro-in-law, Tony Ward, who was apparently rewarded for his fund-raising for Obama among the limo liberals in San Fran, with the #3 job at DOJ,
has quit that job, not long after and dropped off the radar screen-his wife has a good gig at Soros Center for American Progress, though.

not long after everyone in Sackatomatoes and San Fran was clearing email servers, lawyering up, and running around in circles like chickens, as the news broke on Feinsteins model citizen, Shrimp Boy, and the "third most important State Democrat" State Sen Leland Yee, for attempting to run assault weapons, RPGs, and anti-air missles, with the help of Islamic Terrorists in the Phillipines...

I still dont see much interest in the CA Reliable Party Organs about the subsequent RICO investigation...as I recall, the SF Gate journos were all over it, with insider info, then suddenly...went dark. The lead reporter was next seen reporting on a duck pond ceremony...

And the media doesnt seem to have much to say about co-conspirator Keith Jackson, a wheeler and dealer in the SF Bay Area, protege of Moonbeam, connected to Ward? Harris? Through fund raising...? San Fran is a very small town, including Oakland. My tin foil hat says he turned for FBI...

well, enuff irresponsible spekulatin'
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  #56  
Old 05-29-2015, 7:00 PM
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Default At least the rest of nation can see the real agenda now

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Originally Posted by Sutcliffe View Post
Safety has ZERO to do with it. The entire family of single action Colt revolvers is specifically exempt from testing. The 1873 Colt design has been unsafe to carry with a bullet under the hammer since introduction. Yet, it is somehow rendered 'not unsafe' by the azzhats in Sacramento.
Exactly right. Though that SAA exemption was added later, after the original mess was signed into law.

Even more telling of the true goal of the law is the exemption the original legislation had, the exemption for police. Police apparently have a vital need for "unsafe" handguns!
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  #57  
Old 05-29-2015, 7:44 PM
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Exactly right. Though that SAA exemption was added later, after the original mess was signed into law.

Even more telling of the true goal of the law is the exemption the original legislation had, the exemption for police. Police apparently have a vital need for "unsafe" handguns!:facepalm:

Exactly why it should be mandated statewide that all LE be required to only carry SAA Colts.

Hey, WTF, it was good enough for Wyatt.

Everybody already knows that the "Safe handgun Roster" has absofreak'nlutely nothing to do with safety. Any more than the dickwad microstamping requirement has anything to do with crime control, prevention, or tracking criminal use of a firearm.

It's citizen control, not crime control.
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  #58  
Old 05-29-2015, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by gunsandrockets View Post
Exactly right. Though that SAA exemption was added later, after the original mess was signed into law.

Even more telling of the true goal of the law is the exemption the original legislation had, the exemption for police. Police apparently have a vital need for "unsafe" handguns!
actually, I seem to recall that the SA exemption was added to the initial Roster law. seemed that the cowboy-crowd didn't like that their SAA revolvers were going to be blocked by the roster. they lobbied against the proposed law until the SA exemption was added to the bill. all of a sudden their outrage disappeared and the bill made it to law. the legislature bought off the cowboys with SAE just like they have done with other groups.

just like the current "no CCW on school campus" bill. originally, retired LEOs were to be included in the ban but as their lobbyist started politicking, they got exempted from the proposed bill.

both groups allowed an exemption to buy them off. they got theirs, no need to worry about anyone else.
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  #59  
Old 06-01-2015, 8:18 PM
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"The California roster of Safe Handguns was a law designed to prevent unsafe handguns from being sold here."

Since the other 49 (or 56, depending on how you count states) have 'unsafe' handguns, it should be a simple task for other (Democrat) states to put into place a similar roster, especially in places such as New York and Illinois. But since other states cannot point to specific instances where the non California compliant handguns are any more or less 'safe', it undermines the whole theory that the roster relies on, and therefore the entire 'experiment' of the roster is built on flawed logic.
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  #60  
Old 06-01-2015, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Oxnard_Montalvo View Post
"The California roster of Safe Handguns was a law designed to prevent unsafe handguns from being sold here."

Since the other 49 (or 56, depending on how you count states) have 'unsafe' handguns, it should be a simple task for other (Democrat) states to put into place a similar roster, especially in places such as New York and Illinois. But since other states cannot point to specific instances where the non California compliant handguns are any more or less 'safe', it undermines the whole theory that the roster relies on, and therefore the entire 'experiment' of the roster is built on flawed logic.
like the maryland handgun roster?
http://mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=66991
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  #61  
Old 06-01-2015, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Oxnard_Montalvo View Post
"The California roster of Safe Handguns was a law designed to prevent unsafe handguns from being sold here."

Since the other 49 (or 56, depending on how you count states) have 'unsafe' handguns, it should be a simple task for other (Democrat) states to put into place a similar roster, especially in places such as New York and Illinois. But since other states cannot point to specific instances where the non California compliant handguns are any more or less 'safe', it undermines the whole theory that the roster relies on, and therefore the entire 'experiment' of the roster is built on flawed logic.
A number of other states and districts have "safe handgun rosters" in addition to California.
Honestly, when it comes to bad gun laws in this country, California is not in the top 5... but they are trying to change that in Sacramento.
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  #62  
Old 06-09-2015, 8:46 AM
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That's effectively being prepared by a regulatory act coming out of the State Department under ITAR. Posting technical or really, almost any information about firearms online.
The premise being that information is being "exported" via the web.
I bet that would cover everything down to bullet weight, velocity, manufacturing tolerances.
It's also a First Amendment issue though.
I'm hoping their ITAR scheme will play out like green tip ammo where it causes a massive uproar and Congress puts the smack-down on the State department.
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Funny I was thinking the same thing. One micro stamping is in reloading is out.
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  #63  
Old 06-09-2015, 9:55 AM
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A number of other states and districts have "safe handgun rosters" in addition to California.
I know many may disagree with me, but I wouldn't have a problem with a "safe handgun roster" that just did things like drop tests, and only charged an initial test fee.

The problems start when they require certain features. LCI, Magazine Disconnect Safety, Microstamping.
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  #64  
Old 06-09-2015, 10:24 AM
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I know many may disagree with me, but I wouldn't have a problem with a "safe handgun roster" that just did things like drop tests, and only charged an initial test fee.

The problems start when they require certain features. LCI, Magazine Disconnect Safety, Microstamping.
I mostly agree. When I first started getting into guns, when I was young and naive, I heard about the handgun roster and thought to myself "Oh, so they check to make sure the guns don't blow up, or discharge if they get dropped. That seems fine to me." And if that were in fact the case, I would still be fine with it, as long as there are specific safety requirements (for example, doesn't discharge when dropped 5 times from 6 feet, doesn't sustain damage when firing a round at 1.5x standard pressure), and that all handguns must be added to the roster, by law, if it passes those requirements. And the safety requirements would have to be related to quality control ONLY, and cannot limit or require "features".

But, as mentioned a million times already, the roster has nothing to do with any of that, which is why LE is exempt. It's only purpose was to create a way for lawmakers to ban sales of any/all guns they feel like, any time they want.

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  #65  
Old 06-09-2015, 10:59 AM
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In theory all firearms should be tested by the manufacturer at the manufacturer's facility and it's certainly in their best interest to make sure their product doesn't leave the factory without passing.
There could be a firearms version of National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's NCAP.

Maybe you could place firearms in the crash test dummies hands so they can hit a wall at 60 MPH. Partner up with Toyota.
That would test the safety of drive-by shooters. Or people that leave their NFA Class III firearms on the car roof or trunk.

I doubt California's safety tests are any better than the manufacturer's.
Yes, defective/bad design products do get out there like the Remington Walker Trigger. That has cost Remington a lot of money and allegedly caused deaths.

The auto industry cuts corners. It is a risk they are willing to take since they weigh the cost of recalls vs paying off victims in individual lawsuits. They don't care about lives, just money.

Firearms manufacturers aren't that big to play that game. And the stakes are exponentially higher. Defects in one automobile won't lead to an entire class of autos being banned.

There is a challenge for smaller manufacturers to have the equipment to properly test their own products.
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Old 06-09-2015, 6:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarhead4 View Post
One question and it may have been asked and answered. Once a case has been stamped, what happens if you reload it? Could you potentially have several stamps on the case which would defeat the purpose of the law?
Don't take this as gospel...but I thought the micro-stamping law required the identifier to be in two locations on the spent case.
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Old 06-09-2015, 8:26 PM
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It does, and neither one can be on the primer, which means a firing pin stamp doesn't count, so both stamps would still be there after reloading.

In order for this law to make sense, all of these other laws would need to pass:

-Nobody is allowed to reload ammo.

-Nobody is allowed to collect casings from the ground.

-Nobody is allowed to LEAVE casings on the ground during target practice.

-Spent casings from target practice must be destroyed.

-Spent casings from crime scenes must be left there, not collected or destroyed.

-Nobody is allowed to fire a cartridge that anyone else may have reloaded.

-Nobody is allowed to scatter previously spent cases from other weapons on the ground at a crime scene.

-Nobody is allowed to remove or modify microstamping capability from the weapon.

-Nobody is allowed to remove spent casings, or remove microstamping from casings at a crime scene

-LE must have available the proper equipment to verify that a gun has microscopic stamping capability that hasn't been modified.

-Nobody is allowed to ever change a barrel in their gun. If you need a new barrel, you need to buy a new gun.

-All non-microstamped guns must have microstamping added to them. I'm sure the government would pay for this for us.

-Microstamps must also include the date and time the cartridge was fired, to verify that the user of a gun that has had multiple owners was the owner during the shooting.

-All current and previous owners linked to the stamped casing can be charged with the crime, even though literally anybody else could have been the shooter. Think red light cameras.

None of those laws currently exist, most are wildly unconstitutional, and all of them are impossible to enforce.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-09-2015 at 8:52 PM..
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  #68  
Old 06-09-2015, 8:30 PM
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Don't take this as gospel...but I thought the micro-stamping law required the identifier to be in two locations on the spent case.
yes on the primer and the side of the casing
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Old 06-09-2015, 9:05 PM
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yes on the primer and the side of the casing
As pointed out earlier, the law actually says "2 imprints on the casing". The primer isn't part of the casing.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
actually, I seem to recall that the SA exemption was added to the initial Roster law. seemed that the cowboy-crowd didn't like that their SAA revolvers were going to be blocked by the roster. they lobbied against the proposed law until the SA exemption was added to the bill. all of a sudden their outrage disappeared and the bill made it to law. the legislature bought off the cowboys with SAE just like they have done with other groups.
Exactly correct.

Then in 2005 the single-shot pistol exemption was added (for XP100 and TC Encore pistol stuff that was felt to be 'specialty' and 'nonthreatening'
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  #71  
Old 06-10-2015, 4:09 PM
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The actual problem is, that you wouldn't have a problem, while in reality there's already orgs like SAAMI. Politicians cannot be trusted and that's especially in California.


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Originally Posted by CalAlumnus View Post
I know many may disagree with me, but I wouldn't have a problem with a "safe handgun roster" that just did things like drop tests, and only charged an initial test fee.

The problems start when they require certain features. LCI, Magazine Disconnect Safety, Microstamping.
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Old 06-10-2015, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
It does, and neither one can be on the primer, which means a firing pin stamp doesn't count, so both stamps would still be there after reloading.

In order for this law to make sense, all of these other laws would need to pass:

-Nobody is allowed to reload ammo.

-Nobody is allowed to collect casings from the ground.

-Nobody is allowed to LEAVE casings on the ground during target practice.

-Spent casings from target practice must be destroyed.

-Spent casings from crime scenes must be left there, not collected or destroyed.

-Nobody is allowed to fire a cartridge that anyone else may have reloaded.

-Nobody is allowed to scatter previously spent cases from other weapons on the ground at a crime scene.

-Nobody is allowed to remove or modify microstamping capability from the weapon.

-Nobody is allowed to remove spent casings, or remove microstamping from casings at a crime scene

-LE must have available the proper equipment to verify that a gun has microscopic stamping capability that hasn't been modified.

-Nobody is allowed to ever change a barrel in their gun. If you need a new barrel, you need to buy a new gun.

-All non-microstamped guns must have microstamping added to them. I'm sure the government would pay for this for us.

-Microstamps must also include the date and time the cartridge was fired, to verify that the user of a gun that has had multiple owners was the owner during the shooting.

-All current and previous owners linked to the stamped casing can be charged with the crime, even though literally anybody else could have been the shooter. Think red light cameras.

None of those laws currently exist, most are wildly unconstitutional, and all of them are impossible to enforce.
You missed a big one: All revolvers must be banned.
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Old 12-01-2016, 1:31 PM
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http://michellawyers.com/nssf-v-california/

Seems to have come back to life: http://www.sacbee.com/entertainment/...118226983.html
Quote:
Gun manufacturers have the right to present evidence supporting their claim that technology does not exist to comply with a California law requiring new models of semi-automatic handguns to stamp identifying information on bullet casings, a state appeals court said Thursday.
Case # 14CECG00068 DSB

h/t Markinsac
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JB now has until mid-October to act (or not) on bills sent to him. We're immune from most further mischief until the next session begins, late December 2017.

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



Last edited by Librarian; 12-01-2016 at 1:38 PM..
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Old 12-01-2016, 1:48 PM
speedrrracer speedrrracer is offline
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How, legally, does one present evidence of a negative? "Look, your Honor, both my pockets are empty, and no tech anywhere!"
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Old 12-01-2016, 4:30 PM
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If anyone wants to read today's opinion, it is linked in CRPA's alert on the case here: http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=...1&e=7f0381ea75
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Old 12-01-2016, 5:50 PM
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I don't fully understand the summary of the arguments in the ruling. It sounds to me that microstamping is no longer valid. Not because it can't be done. Rather, the two locations on a handgun (as required by law) is not specific enough for the manufacturers to comply.

I think this ruling is political expediency. Sacramento is trying to clean up the gun laws before Trump gets into office.
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Old 12-01-2016, 6:16 PM
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These laws all boil down to one thing, the legislators we have in CA represent 3% of the population. The rest of the population votes for them out of desire for free stuff or in the interest of looking "tolerant" to all thier friends.
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New NRA Campaign to Liberals: "Afraid of a tryannical Trump Administration? Buy a gun..."
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Old 12-01-2016, 6:29 PM
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a new hope for an abolished roster?
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Old 12-01-2016, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfpcservice View Post
These laws all boil down to one thing, the legislators we have in CA represent 3% 35%of the population. The rest of the population votes for them out of desire for free stuff or in the interest of looking "tolerant" to all thier friends.
FIFY..............35% is the percentage of voting age citizens in this state that belong to PSUs. They and the other Non-Productive citizens of voting age.

Always vote for the party of "Free Ch!t". Because "Free Ch!t" is paid for by the Productive Citizens of the state.

JM2c
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Old 12-01-2016, 8:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldjedi View Post
I don't fully understand the summary of the arguments in the ruling. It sounds to me that microstamping is no longer valid. Not because it can't be done. Rather, the two locations on a handgun (as required by law) is not specific enough for the manufacturers to comply.

I think this ruling is political expediency. Sacramento is trying to clean up the gun laws before Trump gets into office.
The way I read it was that the trial court didn't even allow NSSF and SAAMI to make their case because of some separation of powers issue.

The circuit court said the separation of powers issue doesn't bar their suit because the plaintiffs are invoking a section of state law that basically says that the state can't require impossible things.

The circuit court sent it back down to the trial court and says to the trial court: You need to take testimony and evidence to determine if microstamping as described in the law is an impossible thing.

Not only that, but the trial court is ordered to ignore the lame claim by the state AG that when it says microstamping has to be done on two places on the expended cartridge, you can't count microstamping the primer twice. It has to be the primer and someplace else on the cartridge because that was the legislative intent when the law was passed.

So, there's going to be some back and forth at the trial court level where our side should win because there isn't a soul who's claiming that there's any technology that can microstamp the primer and someplace else on the casing.
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