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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-19-2008, 12:15 PM
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Default Penalties for concealed carry without permit?

Do you guys know what the penal code says about that?
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  #2  
Old 05-19-2008, 12:20 PM
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Do some searches. Look at recent posts by CCWFacts.

Depends upon whether it is registered to you or not. Depends upon your attitude. Depends where you are.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:24 PM
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IF NOTHING ELSE IS WRONG, it's two misdemeanors: concealed carry without a permit, and loaded carry without a permit. These are normally handled as a small fine and a 10-year probation. That means, in the best possible case, you have a criminal record (misdemeanor), fines and legal fees, and a ten-year loss of gun rights. It's not the end of the world, it won't destroy your life, etc, but it's a bummer.

Now, what do I mean, "if nothing else is wrong"? There are a whole bunch of things that could shift it from "misdemeanor" to "felony". These include, but are not limited to:
  • The gun is not properly registered
  • You're caught within 1000' of a school (as defined in the relevant sections of the PC). This is a doozy because there are schools everywhere.
  • It's a second offense
  • You're found to be a member of a "gang" (there's a PC definition), or in the process of committing some other crime
  • Probably a whole bunch of other things

So, even in the best case, it's no laughing matter, and it's also easy for it to shift over to the "felony" side, and that means jail time, lifetime loss of gun rights, lifetime loss of voting rights, lifetime travel restrictions, and a serious criminal record.

Despite all this, many otherwise law abiding people in this state do carry without permits. It's a personal decision of balancing risks of being a victim of a crime vs. all the legal consequences. In fact, I have heard many cases of police advising people to carry without permits, in urban areas where it's obvious that no permit will be issued but the person obviously needs to carry. The best example is Oakland's Patrick McClough. Oakland PD told him he should start carrying, before they issued him a permit.

But he was facing greatly higher risks than ordinary people, so his risk factors were different.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:48 PM
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Generally speaking, if you're an otherwise law abiding citizen, you could expect two years informal probation, a fine of around 600.00 and loss of your gun. Some DA's will add a two year gun ban that is negotiable. If you have a second offense, it could be a felony but it's usually plea bargained down to a misdemeanor.
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
...and a ten-year loss of gun rights.
Speaking as someone who was the victim of a near-fatal attack as a child, and as a consequence finds it nearly intolerable to not be armed, I find it ironic that a penalty for trying to protecting yourself is to be even further disarmed for 10 years, and thus even more vulnerable to criminals, even at home
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:10 PM
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Misdemeanor? First I have ever heard of that, but it is the first time I have thought about it at all. My guess as someone who doesn't know much about average sentence lengths would have been a felony, short jail time, loss of rights for life. If it is just a misdemeanor with fines and probation, that is interesting.
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:25 PM
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" a ten-year loss of gun rights."

I can find no reference to this. Also, I have checked the list of Prohibited Persons http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf. See page 19 - 20.
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:32 PM
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Misdemeanor? First I have ever heard of that, but it is the first time I have thought about it at all. My guess as someone who doesn't know much about average sentence lengths would have been a felony, short jail time, loss of rights for life. If it is just a misdemeanor with fines and probation, that is interesting.
The legal definition of a Misdemeanor is any crime punishable by incarceration of UP TO one year in COUNTY JAIL.

The legal definition of a Felony is any crime punishable by incarceration of MORE than one year in STATE PRISON.

Last edited by RomanDad; 05-19-2008 at 1:35 PM..
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SanSacto View Post
Misdemeanor? First I have ever heard of that, but it is the first time I have thought about it at all. My guess as someone who doesn't know much about average sentence lengths would have been a felony, short jail time, loss of rights for life. If it is just a misdemeanor with fines and probation, that is interesting.
It is, indeed, "just" a misdemeanor, so long as those other things aren't wrong. The reason is that this allows the operation of an informal "permission to carry" system which exists in this state. If it's a misdemeanor, the officers who are aware of it have discretion in how they handle it. They can, and often do, overlook it if they feel it's justified.

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Originally Posted by fleegman
Speaking as someone who was the victim of a near-fatal attack as a child, and as a consequence finds it nearly intolerable to not be armed, I find it ironic that a penalty for trying to protecting yourself is to be even further disarmed for 10 years, and thus even more vulnerable to criminals, even at home
Our entire CCW system is "ironic humor".
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:48 PM
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Based on experience of somebody I know:

First time he was picking some trash from freeways. Loaded, UNREGISTERED, gun found in a car during traffic stop.
Now (second offense) he is doing two years.

I don't know too many details...... but both times it was in LA county.
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:49 PM
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So if I servered on a jury that convicted a gang member of murder and did not have a CCW but was stoped by the Sheriff and was found to be in possession of a LEGALLY reg. to myself handgun, If I could prove that threats were made to the jury members by someone from the gang, I MAY get away with that with only a warnning?
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Old 05-19-2008, 1:56 PM
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So if I servered on a jury that convicted a gang member of murder and did not have a CCW but was stoped by the Sheriff and was found to be in possession of a LEGALLY reg. to myself handgun, If I could prove that threats were made to the jury members by someone from the gang, I MAY get away with that with only a warnning?
Yes. Or maybe even no warning, just a "carry on". It would be up to the officer, his individual judgment and perspective. That would be influenced by you and the circumstances of the interaction. If you're in a modified car (tinted windows, etc), dressed like a thug, and in front of a club at 2am, that's one thing. If you're dressed neatly, driving a well-kept unmodified vehicle, and you're engaged in normal type of activities, that's another thing.

One other thing: how often do you get searched? Normal, professional, law-abiding people rarely have occasion to interact with the police, much less be searched. Someone who gets traffic stops or gets searched by the police with any regularity should ask himself why that is happening.

But even if everything is perfect: you have a valid reason to be carrying, you're looking respectable, etc, he could still insist on reporting it and the DA could insist on charging you. It's entirely up to them and if they love "getting guns off the street", then they can do that.
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Old 05-19-2008, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by liketoshoot View Post
So if I servered on a jury that convicted a gang member of murder and did not have a CCW but was stoped by the Sheriff and was found to be in possession of a LEGALLY reg. to myself handgun, If I could prove that threats were made to the jury members by someone from the gang, I MAY get away with that with only a warnning?
Unlikely... Once the arrest is made, the case goes to the D.A. or City attorney respectively, and the case is out of the police department's control.

There is ANECDOTAL evidence of some specific police officers who find concealed guns in the possession of otherwise "good people" (yes, cops have a good idea if you're a normal upstanding citizen or a gang-banging scumbag before the arrest is made) and are in particularly nice moods simply saying "Hey... Thats illegal... Unload it and don't do that again". But you cant rely on catching THAT cop, in THAT mood.... SO DON'T DO IT! The moment you break the law, you put yourself at the mercy of another person.

If you have such proof of an on-going, specific threat of violence, go to your local PD or sheriff and apply for a CCW. Thats REALLY, REALLY good cause even in the worst departments, and most will try to work with you if the threat is legitimate and verifiable.

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Old 05-19-2008, 2:27 PM
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If you have such proof of an on-going, specific threat of violence, go to your local PD or sheriff and apply for a CCW. Thats REALLY, REALLY good cause even in the worst departments, and most will try to work with you if the threat is legitimate and verifiable.
Haha, or they'll say "just call 911 if you need us there!" Do you really think any department will "work with" someone if they have a clear and present threat to their lives regularly and you aren't a member of the sheriff's fund raising posse? It's a nice idea, but hardly real for most of us on this forum.
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Old 05-19-2008, 2:35 PM
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Haha, or they'll say "just call 911 if you need us there!" Do you really think any department will "work with" someone if they have a clear and present threat to their lives regularly and you aren't a member of the sheriff's fund raising posse? It's a nice idea, but hardly real for most of us on this forum.
Yes. That is one of the GC statements that San Diego Sheriff Dept will actually accept. If you document specific, credible threats against your life, you have a good chance of getting a CCW License.
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Old 05-19-2008, 2:38 PM
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Haha, or they'll say "just call 911 if you need us there!" Do you really think any department will "work with" someone if they have a clear and present threat to their lives regularly and you aren't a member of the sheriff's fund raising posse? It's a nice idea, but hardly real for most of us on this forum.
Im not saying it applies to most of us on the forum. Finding a permanent work-around for CCW problems wasn't the hypothetical posed.

Most of us on the forum are not being threatened with death by criminal gang members in retaliation for their service on a jury. MOST victims of crime don't get warned prior to their victimization. (that of course is the fatal flaw with our current CCW system)... HOWEVER, even LAPD will issue CCWs to people who have SERIOUS, IMMEDIATE, VERIFIABLE threats of violence against them, at least on a temporary basis while the threat remains credible. Will that work as a permanent way of gaming the system to get a CCW? NOPE.

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Old 05-19-2008, 3:16 PM
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Yes. Or maybe even no warning, just a "carry on". It would be up to the officer, his individual judgment and perspective. That would be influenced by you and the circumstances of the interaction. If you're in a modified car (tinted windows, etc), dressed like a thug, and in front of a club at 2am, that's one thing. If you're dressed neatly, driving a well-kept unmodified vehicle, and you're engaged in normal type of activities, that's another thing.

One other thing: how often do you get searched? Normal, professional, law-abiding people rarely have occasion to interact with the police, much less be searched. Someone who gets traffic stops or gets searched by the police with any regularity should ask himself why that is happening.

But even if everything is perfect: you have a valid reason to be carrying, you're looking respectable, etc, he could still insist on reporting it and the DA could insist on charging you. It's entirely up to them and if they love "getting guns off the street", then they can do that.
Well I look like I do not belong to any gang and I drive a newer non-modified car, I have been stopped but treat the officer with courtesy, (it's not his fault I was going a little fast), I do not act nervous or theatening and all my papers are in order, I have even been told to slow down and not been given the ticket. Let me say also that I've only been stopped 3 times in 6 years, but twice in 2 weeks.

I have proof of the threat in the court records and the warning given to us buy the court officer that they are a bad gang and don't care about you or me.
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Old 05-19-2008, 3:24 PM
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RomansDad put it well when he said, "But you cant rely on catching THAT cop, in THAT mood.... SO DON'T DO IT! The moment you break the law, you put yourself at the mercy of another person. "

If you have solid documented threats in a court case, you can probably get a CCW issued almost anywhere in California except for SF and a handful other other extremely anti-CCW locations.
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Old 05-19-2008, 3:33 PM
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RomansDad put it well when he said, "But you cant rely on catching THAT cop, in THAT mood.... SO DON'T DO IT! The moment you break the law, you put yourself at the mercy of another person. "

If you have solid documented threats in a court case, you can probably get a CCW issued almost anywhere in California except for SF and a handful other other extremely anti-CCW locations.


Yeah... I thought of San Francisco after I posted...

Unfortunately, if you live in San Francisco, you can bring the gang member in with you, he can sign a sworn affidavit telling the police the exact time and manner he plans to murder you, and they still wont give you a CCW....
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Old 05-19-2008, 3:36 PM
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Well as I'm moving real soon I'll try not to worry about them, but I do keep an eye in the rear view mirror for strange cars going the same way I am.
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Old 05-19-2008, 3:39 PM
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lol, yep.

I've had an "armed burglar" steal from my home (he left the knife in the bedroom)..and while that's more than adequate GC for me and my family (aside of the normalcy of shootings just 100 yds away and throughout my city), it would be laughed at heartily by Commissar Rupf of CCCounty.
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Old 05-19-2008, 3:58 PM
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Yeah... I thought of San Francisco after I posted...

Unfortunately, if you live in San Francisco, you can bring the gang member in with you, he can sign a sworn affidavit telling the police the exact time and manner he plans to murder you, and they still wont give you a CCW....
It's also one of the locations where I expect that someone caught carrying sans permit can expect to be arrested and charged. Even someone with a permit could be hassled there.

So what do people do in SF who have been involved in gang trials and fear for their lives? Simple, they get killed. Problem solved! Better to have a few dead witnesses, and a whole population that's too scared to report crimes, than to allow guns on the street. Any number of dead bodies are better than issuing a few CCW permits.
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Old 05-19-2008, 4:27 PM
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Unlikely... Once the arrest is made, the case goes to the D.A. or City attorney respectively, and the case is out of the police department's control.

There is ANECDOTAL evidence of some specific police officers who find concealed guns in the possession of otherwise "good people" (yes, cops have a good idea if you're a normal upstanding citizen or a gang-banging scumbag before the arrest is made) and are in particularly nice moods simply saying "Hey... Thats illegal... Unload it and don't do that again". But you cant rely on catching THAT cop, in THAT mood.... SO DON'T DO IT! The moment you break the law, you put yourself at the mercy of another person.

If you have such proof of an on-going, specific threat of violence, go to your local PD or sheriff and apply for a CCW. Thats REALLY, REALLY good cause even in the worst departments, and most will try to work with you if the threat is legitimate and verifiable.
...good reasonable police officers who gave me that type of advice; I didn't know them personally---went thru the hoops[a lot of them and more 'stuff' that wasn't in the apps but came up when I had my interview]; and now I carry legally.
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Old 05-19-2008, 4:35 PM
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Don't consent to a search and don't get caught packing. That is my suggestion.
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Old 05-19-2008, 4:37 PM
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Huna koa: Well, you're in San Bernardino County. Fact is, it's easy to get a permit there. The problems are in LA, SF, etc. In SF, literally, there is nothing that justifies an ordinary citizen carrying a gun. If you want a CCW in SF, the way to get it is to run for DA, and win.
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Old 05-19-2008, 6:08 PM
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Pretty sure it is the same way here in Santa Barbara. Makes me want to open carry.
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Old 05-19-2008, 6:50 PM
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There exist three solutions to the criminalization of concealed carry.

1) Open carry unloaded in incorporated or 'prohibited' areas, avoiding gun free-school zones.

2) Unloaded, cased, and locked carry. The fully enclosed case could be a case like the safepacker or a bagmaster belt case locked with a small luggage lock. I believe this would comply with 626.9 provided you weren't on school grounds.(Correct me if I'm wrong)

3) Leave it at home in your safe so when you need it, you cant possibly use it.
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Old 05-19-2008, 7:32 PM
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IIRC, there's also an exception in the PC for short term unlicensed concealed carry under certain circumstances. The example I was given went something like this:

Your car breaks down in the ghetto/ deserted road where you feel you might be the victim of a violent crime. You can lock and load (assuming you have the gun with you) while you wait for the tow truck.

It should be noted, concealed carry of a fixed blade knife or dagger is a felony under CA law.
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Old 05-19-2008, 9:19 PM
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I personally wouldn't risk it. I happen to have an exposed security guard firearm permit (Carry at and to and from work), a NV CCW and Government I.d that says I am a security officer with a certain federal agency. I work in Oakland at night. With all of that I could still be busted if I concealed my weapon. There are a lot of great cops out there, just remember, it only takes one to be a D$%*!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-19-2008, 9:24 PM
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Also, remember that most DA's are not interested in justice. They are interested in climbing that ladder. They have no problem making an example out of you for CCW violations just so they can get ahead. Sorry to say it that way but it's true. Don't risk it and don't give them the satisfaction. Get a CCW licesne, be legal!!
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Old 05-19-2008, 9:28 PM
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You are right on that example. Under those circumstances, any officer would be hard pressed to nail you.
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Old 05-20-2008, 8:47 AM
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Get a CCW licesne
What planet are you from? Don't you realize that in most counties in California, this is simply not possible.

Don't get me wrong. I do not advocate violating 12025. But most of us can't get a CCW. CitaDel's listed options are the only legal recourses available to us.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:58 AM
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What i have seen typically in court is a small fine, court ordered destruction of the weapon, 1-3 years informal probation with search & seizure terms and a no dangerous weapons terms.

really the biggest punishment is the probation terms saying possess no weapon.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:42 AM
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really the biggest punishment is the probation terms saying possess no weapon.
Yeah. That's the big one. That, and the risk of being escalated to a felony if there are any other problems: school zones, government property, etc.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:46 AM
Blwnbwtie Blwnbwtie is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
really the biggest punishment is the probation terms saying possess no weapon.
So does this mean you have to give up all your guns, or they just have to stay at home during the probation period?
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:57 PM
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[QUOTE=MudCamper;1224282]What planet are you from? Don't you realize that in most counties in California, this is simply not possible.
QUOTE]

Just a point of clarification. CCWs are attainable in most counties (40 out of 58), but the 18 hard to impossible counties have high poulations. So most people in California can't get a CCW, but most counties issue.
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Old 05-20-2008, 4:41 PM
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You could say (roughly) that 80% of California's counties issue, but 80% of Californians live in locations where issuance is difficult or impossible. "Difficult or impossible" means that a lawsuit would be the only possible avenue, and the outcome of a lawsuit is never guaranteed.
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The future of California?
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  #38  
Old 05-20-2008, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
What planet are you from? Don't you realize that in most counties in California, this is simply not possible.

Don't get me wrong. I do not advocate violating 12025. But most of us can't get a CCW. CitaDel's listed options are the only legal recourses available to us.
Last I checked I was from Planet Kali. All I was sayin' was that one should at least attempt to follow the law. Apply for the CCW, depending on the county, you might get lucky. Short of that, if you need the gun for a certain thing and a ccw isn't an option, use your own common sense and be ready to explain yourself to the officer. If he is reasonable and you are polite, you may get a pass.
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Old 05-20-2008, 4:48 PM
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At any rate why even take the chance?
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Old 05-20-2008, 5:45 PM
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At any rate why even take the chance?

If you have to ask, there is no reason to try and convince you...Good luck.


I was on Jury duty here in Fresno about 8 years ago.Another case was going on while I was waiting in the courtroom, this guy was arrested for a DUI and the officers also found a loaded Ruger .38 in the door panel of his truck. On top of his DUI stuff he also lost the gun, it was ordered to be destroyed and three years probation. Pretty funny that carrying certain knives are a felony here but a loaded concealed firearm is only two mis, its actually kind of cool. I used to believe in the old tried by 12 than carried by 6 saying then we got a new sheriff and now I have a permit. I should mention a female sheriff that believes on our right to carry and protect ourselves, pretty cool.
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