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  #1  
Old 05-10-2008, 2:28 PM
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Default Why no full auto/high power tech PCP air rifles?? *pics inside*

Im wondering why, in California especially, no one is developing or persuing any hi power large caliber PCP (precharged pneumatic) air rifles...

A perfect example of such a device is the "Caselman SMG" developed in the late 70s (or maybe early 80s, not a lot of info out there)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUKxO03HlOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POCGiy5VpxI

This "SMG" uses 3000+ PSI of compressed air and .32 caliber cast lead projectiles. The energy imparted into each round is on par or above that of a .32ACP when fired from a "Skorpion" SMG



Caselman SMG


.32ACP fed Skorpion SMG

So my big question is, since air rifles are 100% legal to own/shoot/operate in full or semi auto, including use by persons convicted of crimes not allowing them to own a "firearm", etc:

why isnt there more of a market for such items??

I think that with todays info/technology and manufacturing capabilities a 5000PSI version using a 9mm to 10mm projectile fed from a 100rd magazine would be entirely possible.

Imagine owning a LEGAL full auto sub gun that had the energy and stopping ability of a 9x19 firearm yet used no means of propulusion beyond compressed air (or better yet NITROGEN!)....

I envision having scuba like tanks on your back for extended range sessions and quick change magazines, something like a Calico or Bizon SMG uses.

There are also added benefits of, legal to shoot inside your house (basement range) no real recoil compared to a firearm, no need for propellant which can be regulated or otherwise taken out of commerce, no need for cartridges which means a super high rate of fire is possible (no extraction needed...)

Im just baffled why we don't see such a device for sale.

Maybe it has to due with people afraid of getting air guns outlawed??

Air rifles have been an integral part of shooting for CENTURIES...

Look at Lewis and Clark, they carried THIS exact air rifle on their 1803 expedition:



Its a Girandoni repeating air rifle. It held 20 rounds and was the equivalent of an assault rifle (true meaning like STG44, real AK, etc) in its day. When an average soldier could fire perhaps 2 aimed shots per minute (maybe 3 in volley) from a flintlock, an air rifleman could fire 15+ per minute, with just as much muzzle energy, no smoke and a much quieter report.

The Caselman design IMHO looks like a modernized version of the Girandoni, using a spring fed magazine instead of gravity fed. There's no reason the 1700's vintage technology Girandoni couldnt have been made to fire fully automatically with minimal changes...

Here is a very similar weapon made in the 1940s during German occupation:




Notice it is basically a Girandoni type design with a spring fed magazine and a bolt action instead of a faux hammer type design....

I've read reports that US troops use high powered 9mm PCPs for taking out targets in Iraq that would otherwise not be possible due to a firearm giving up their position... Basically "silent sentry removal"

If you've made it this far and want to read some GOOD info on vintage high power air rifles (and handguns!) read this:

Click HERE for info on air rifles



OK thats enough rambling on my part...what do you guys think??

JP

Last edited by JPglee1; 05-10-2008 at 4:39 PM..
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Old 05-10-2008, 2:42 PM
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I need a air version of this.

Hooked up to a couple of these.
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  #3  
Old 05-10-2008, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ech0Sierra View Post
I need a air version of this.
All joking aside, don't you think its a neat concept that should be persued??

If you use nitrogen you would get even more power. Have the design spec'd to use compressed air as well if no nitrogren was around.

Im thinking you could convert A/C pumps on vehicles to be field-expedient type recharge pumps....

J

P.S. an airpowered mini-gun HAS been built, but only shoots .177 caliber BBs:
http://www.montysminiguns.com/bbpage.htm

Last edited by JPglee1; 05-10-2008 at 2:53 PM..
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Old 05-10-2008, 2:50 PM
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I am very interested. Legal full auto with stopping power and free propellant? Why are there not mor people working on this?
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Old 05-10-2008, 2:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPglee1 View Post
All joking aside, don't you think its a neat concept that should be persued??

If you use nitrogen you would get even more power. Have the design spec'd to use compressed air as well if no nitrogren was around.

Im thinking you could convert A/C pumps on vehicles to be field-expedient type recharge pumps....

J
Whos joking! I would be interesteed in one of the super sized version!
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  #6  
Old 05-10-2008, 3:13 PM
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When I was a kid, my dad used to get U.S. Cavalry catalogs and for a time they had LARC M-19's for sale. I always wanted one.

http://vk20040.tripod.com/LARC_M19A/...m/pict0018?i=6
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Old 05-10-2008, 3:40 PM
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uhhh they make FA gas powered airsoft guns.
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Old 05-10-2008, 3:40 PM
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uhhh they make FA gas powered airsoft guns.
Can they kill someone?
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Old 05-10-2008, 3:42 PM
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Quote:
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Can they kill someone?
if they use 'red gas' yes.
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Old 05-10-2008, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue View Post
Can they kill someone?
A pencil can kill someone, maybe we should quantify it by asking "Can it be used as a viable method of self or home defense while still being fun and convenient to shoot?"

As cool as Airsoft guns are, they fire plastic projos and simply aren't for defense. Im proposing a REAL air gun that you could actually hunt with and use for HD. It would be especially handy when no resupplys were expected for some time (such as ammo)

I'd like to build one that uses .380 or 9x19 (same I guess beside weight and shape) projectiles at around 80grains and a velocity over 1500FPS...

If you could get it to run 80gr bullets at anything over 1000fps it would be at least as powerful as a .380 handgun, which is better than throwing a rock.

Also you could use those "snake shot" cartridge heads and use it as a small game taking device to gather food, etc.

J
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Old 05-10-2008, 3:57 PM
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I shouldn't have mentioned the word 'airsoft'. yes its mostly used as toys but some Japanese companies make some high powered stuff that you wouldn't even want to shoot plastic projectiles through it (they could break in the bbl). They shoot 8mm metal bbs making it more like a BB gun than an airsoft gun. As long as the rifle is strong enough to use higher powered gas and a long barrel you can achieve some pretty high velocities.
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Old 05-10-2008, 4:05 PM
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http://www.instructables.com/id/F93HKE2RLQES9J51EX

That seems to be a link to the PDF file of the blue prints.


J
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Old 05-10-2008, 4:09 PM
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Isn't the FA BB guns illegal here in Kali? If someone made a Hi-Vel wouldn't that be banned? I know air soft is not the same as a pellet/BB gun but if it has the potential to kill a human, I think it would be banned.
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Old 05-10-2008, 4:21 PM
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There is no restriction on a full auto BB gun. It is not a firearm and is unregulated.

however it DOES expel a solid projectile either way so it would be illegal to shoot it just "anywhere" since most jurisdictions have restrictions on solid projectiles.

But owning it... no problem.


J
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Old 05-10-2008, 4:49 PM
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might be helpfull: http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148&

Tagged for more info.
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Old 05-10-2008, 5:16 PM
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I don't get it. On those Strafer guns are they air pressure or is the air syphoned in front of the BBs to create a negative pressure in front of the BBs and the air behind them pushes them into the pseudo vaccum? Also, are the BBs gravity fed or does the pseudo vaccum just keep pulling them in? I just can't igure it out since either method would seem to only shoot a minimal ammount of BBs until the feed hole was unobstructed, which would be relatively fast considering where the opening is.

As for airguns, there are some pretty powerful ones out there. A company in Arizona I believe makes one that shoots .25 commercial pellets at something like 2k FPS with a self contained compressed air tank that can be filled with any compressor. It's also fitted with a suppressors though I am not sure if the design could be adapted to full auto.

Supppresors are also legal on BB guns as long as the suppressor can NOT be adapted for use on a regular firearm (if I understand it right). So the suppressor gets welded on like a flash hider onto a normal barrel and the problem is solved. Since BB guns don't have the waste that firearms produce you would only need to blow out dust and what not from time to time, which guess what, the air does for you as you shoot it so it's self-cleaning. Weld the hole thing shut and you'll never have to worry about taking it off again (just make sure you don't get baffle strikes).
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Old 05-10-2008, 5:21 PM
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There is not as much demand as you might think...at least not really enough to justify the R&D costs. In other countries where firearms are a "no-no", there is more interest, but in the US where you can buy a 22 rifle for $150....most people are not willing to cough up the $600~2500 for a PCP + another $200~500 for a filling system. They just kind of laugh when you tell them what it costs....Now if you showed them what they can do, it's often a different story...

I'm no sharpshooter, but this was a backyard group with a Rapid I used to own:


I sold one PCP to a guy who was a rimfire benchrest shooter. He brought his new toy to a match one day. He asked if they other clubmembers would mind if he shot the match with it (BSA Super 10). He got lots of laughs....that is until he outshot 4 of the guys in the match!

Trajectories (accurate ranging) and wind are a lot harder with an airgun (subsonic velocities with low BC projectiles), but consistency is the key (which modern PCP's excel at) and there have been numerous sub-MOA groups shot at 100yds and beyond....

More airgun info for you than you could shake a stick at:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/
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Old 05-10-2008, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue View Post
Can they kill someone?
Give one to a banger and tell him to point it at a cop. Yep, you'll get one dead banger due to a FA airsoft.
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Old 05-10-2008, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NeoWeird View Post
A company in Arizona I believe makes one that shoots .25 commercial pellets at something like 2k FPS with a self contained compressed air tank that can be filled with any compressor.

Supppresors are also legal on BB guns as long as the suppressor can NOT be adapted for use on a regular firearm (if I understand it right).
Somebody's been feeding you some whoowie......2000fps? No way with an airgun. There are some that are able to get their pellets just sonic (~1100fps), however with the poor BC of the pellets they quickly drop transonic which wreaks havoc on your accuracy. Airguns are best suited for low-power, subsonic, low noise, reduced collateral danger, high precision delivery of limited power. If you can pick off a rabbit at 40 yds and choose "which eye do you want it through", you don't need 100fpe.....something like 6-8fpe at the target in precisely the right spot will do the trick.

Also, you won't be getting anything with a household compressor. Most PCP's are running from 200-300bar (3,000~4,500psi). Best source is SCUBA store, Paintball store or Firehouse.

Now if you really want the big-boy stuff, DAQ is the king (and all handmade in the US):
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

As for suppressors, it's a legal gray area, but many manufacturers sell the PCP's with permanently mounted "shrouds" that take the worst of the muzzle blast off (full-power PCP is nearly as loud as a rimfire).....properly moderated one will make in the ballpark of 30fpe at the muzzle, but still be "mousefart quiet".....
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Old 05-10-2008, 6:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SVRider View Post

Now if you really want the big-boy stuff, DAQ is the king (and all handmade in the US):
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

As for suppressors, it's a legal gray area, but many manufacturers sell the PCP's with permanently mounted "shrouds" that take the worst of the muzzle blast off (full-power PCP is nearly as loud as a rimfire).....properly moderated one will make in the ballpark of 30fpe at the muzzle, but still be "mousefart quiet".....
I was previously familiar w/Quackenbush and their awesome products....

I'm thinking something more "rapid fire" than "hunting"... a legal SMG if you will. A way for the shooter to have a full auto that can shoot thru stuff stumps, hogs, deer, old cars (kidding)... basically all the stuff a firearm will do, but without the legal restrictions of the firearm.

I dunno I just think that it would be cool to pay $2-3000 and have a legal full auto SMG power air rifle with no hassles. If you could have an integral suppressor legally too even better!


Im just trying to think how you could have the same fun as other states for similar coin output.

If I lived in NV i'd spend the $3-4000 on a MAC or some other cheap open bolt SMG...

But still its gotta be cheap in the long run to feed an air gun (just lead n lube) than a firearm (lead, brass, powder, primer, lube).


Thanks for all the excellent info so far.


J
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Old 05-10-2008, 7:06 PM
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I just noticed you are in Victorville area.....you've got a great AG dealer up your way.

Look up "Pomona Airguns". Steve is a great guy to deal with.....

As for the full-autos...about the only options are the DROZD, and someone has made a full-auto conversion for the FX Monsoon. Me, I couldn't do it to a Monsoon. Accuracy are where these things really shine. If you want spray and pray, look into one of these:

http://www.pyramydair.com/p/Drozd-MP...-co2-gun.shtml
http://www.pyramydair.com/p/bulk-drozd-CO2-bb-gun.shtml
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Old 05-10-2008, 7:14 PM
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Somebody's been feeding you some whoowie......2000fps? No way with an airgun.
Sorry, meant to hit 1 and hit 2. I meant 1k fps, but that is with the .25 caliber pellets. I've seen several .17 pellets that shoot in the 1.3K+ range and some pellet guns can hit 60+ FPE at the muzzle. There is no question that airguns are just as powerful as real guns (at least the smaller ones).
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Old 05-10-2008, 7:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVRider View Post

As for the full-autos...about the only options are the DROZD,
yah Im in victimville, lol.

You're still thinking too small caliber....

I want something air powered semi or full auto (doesnt have to be full auto) that shoots at least a .30 caliber bullet of at least 60 grains at around 900-1000fps...

Not a little 4.5mm buzz gun hehe.

I want a lathe. I must get a lathe.


J
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Old 05-10-2008, 8:32 PM
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wow- I know its much smaller cal than what you're looking for, but damn that lil drozd looks cool! Check this vid out:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IwUWzp21d_I

PS- whats up NeoWeird, I met you over at Bright Spot a couple weeks ago, If you wanna go shoot sometime drop me a PM.
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Old 05-10-2008, 8:38 PM
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i love my .22 monsoon, was thinking about running the full auto mod on it, but 12 rounds FA? don't know about that one.

would i love a higher cal pellet? of course. but right now, monsoon and revo are the only 2 semi's commercially avail so that's what i got.
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Old 05-10-2008, 9:05 PM
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i got a feeling by the time one is released the next day they will have electric rail guns firing a bb at 4000 fps
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Old 05-10-2008, 11:10 PM
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A few years ago, I think Armalite or Bushmasteer was working on one. I haven't heard a peep since.

2000+ fps would be easily possible at the muzzle- with a PCP you just need enough air pressure. Sustaining that velocity is a whole different issue. Tim of MAC1 told me subsonics are more accurate as the supersonics transition back to subsonic relatively quickly, and the pellets destsabilize (not to mention the noise). If you wanted rifle velocitiees, you'd have to design a new pellet, or make it shoot real bullets via air.

-Dave
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Old 05-10-2008, 11:44 PM
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I know that I've watched myth busters. They do a lot with high pressure projectiles from a compressor. As I see it, they have enough pressure to work with nailguns. Even if it was hooked directly to a gas compressor, it would be a fun option. I don't know why this has not been researched and done here in CA. A 9mm could easily be shot using air. It may help to cast them in aluminum instead of lead. I don't really think full auto is that valuable, but the cost on ammo saving would be great. Plus it would be fun. I would buy one and or build one.
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Old 05-10-2008, 11:51 PM
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there are already big bore pcp's like the daq as stated above.

we need more SEMI or AUTO. right now the only company offering semi's is FX.
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Old 05-11-2008, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saki302 View Post
2000+ fps would be easily possible at the muzzle- with a PCP you just need enough air pressure.
Air can only move so fast. Generally, you won't get much more than transonic from it, no matter what kind of pressure you use. You might be able to get supersonic + with some funky kind of venturi setup, but that's going to use a lot more air.

The way I see it, airguns are going to have similar limitations to blackpowder - velocity is going to be limited. But I think the solution might be similar, too. Go bigger and heavier with the projectiles to get more force on target.

Then again, you'll have to compromise to conserve air.

JPGlee suggested a converted auto air conditioner compressor as a "field expedient" way to fill up. No way. Auto compressors aren't good for much past 200 PSI. You can convert them to run air tools like impact wrenches (with a big tank in between), but that's about their limit.
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Old 05-11-2008, 2:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyD View Post
if they use 'red gas' yes.
Red gas is just coolant with an air nozzle; You need to be an extremely impressive machinist and technician to squeeze the kind of power required to kill someone on a conventional gas gun.

Only recorded kill by "airsoft" was a heavily modified Digicon Target Hunter, 20in with the safeties pulled out, completely re-machined, and rerouted to straight 800psi CO2. The assailant was using 6mm steel ball bearings weighing over a gram. During the attempted robbery, the victim (an 82 year old woman) was shot in the temple, the bb had fragmented her skull; which lead to her eventual death. The guy is currently rotting in prison.

I have a digicon target hunter, 16in. Whoever this guy was, he knew the engine really well.

A digicon target was made as a pellet gun... that so happened to also fire 6mm bbs; it is not made for airsoft
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  #32  
Old 05-11-2008, 4:32 PM
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JimmyD JimmyD is offline
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I've seen red gas powered "airsoft" handguns with the ability to punch holes through car windshields so that's why I mentioned that and I certainly would not appreciate being shot by one of those at close range. FA gas powered bb launchers exist its just most of it is not built to withstand the amount of force that could kill somebody and be marketed as toys.
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  #33  
Old 05-11-2008, 5:51 PM
SVRider SVRider is offline
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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
Air can only move so fast. Generally, you won't get much more than transonic from it, no matter what kind of pressure you use.
Precisely! To get an air powered weapon moving a 2x the speed of sound, you first need to figure out how to get the air to move at that speed....just adding more pressure won't do it.....
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  #34  
Old 05-11-2008, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyD View Post
I've seen red gas powered "airsoft" handguns with the ability to punch holes through car windshields so that's why I mentioned that and I certainly would not appreciate being shot by one of those at close range. FA gas powered bb launchers exist its just most of it is not built to withstand the amount of force that could kill somebody and be marketed as toys.
Sotaro Inami (Monster Airsoft) is an engineer in japan that built a CO2 powered engine that used the .88gram ball bearings like the digicon target hunter; his prototype ended up Austria where the safeties were removed and they were used to demonstrate destructive power right off youtube.
Not a very good PR stunt for airsoft since the base of the gun was originally a Tokyo Marui AUG rifle. Mr. Sotaro and I talked about it, he said it was probably the dumbest thing he's ever done. so only three pieces with that power exist, and he has two of them.


Course, guns of that type will cost you far over $1500, and there's only one Monster engine. Very few (like 3) were produced.

Your conventional airsoft gun won't have that power
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  #35  
Old 07-29-2008, 8:06 AM
Igotbbs Igotbbs is offline
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Does anyone know what the highest-powered full-auto bb or pellet weapon is on the market? Or does anyone know how to convert bb guns to full-auto?
I gotta have something like that. I wouldn't mind having an experimental gun either. I WANNA SHOOT SOMETHIN.
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