PoliceOne article on CCW for citizens

[CalCop]

At least some cops are trying to help educate other cops that citizen CCW is okay...

"Dealing with civilians' right to carry"
By Ron Avery , PoliceOne columnist

As the ‘right to carry’ spreads across the United States, many law enforcement agencies and police officers express their unease — and for some, outright alarm — at the idea of citizens carrying concealed weapons.

In an effort to disseminate useful information that would be of benefit to law enforcement, let me talk about this issue from both sides of the fence so to speak.

As a former law enforcement officer, I have had to address concealed carry issues as part of my regular duties. In Colorado, where I live, guns are as natural a part of life as putting on your pants and hat. It is not uncommon to see a rifle or shotgun in the rifle rack in the back of any pickup truck window.

I live in one of the best parts of the country for deer and elk hunting. Come hunting season and we have literally thousands of hunters coming to Colorado to hunt. I never worried about contacting individuals where the guns were in plain sight. Without fail, the people contacted were forthright and honest in their manner and deeds. When I would ask if they had any handguns, they would tell me where they were and what they had.

The Master of Science in Law degree at Champlain College is designed for students who seek an understanding of the law and the legal system. Champlain College is accredited by the New England Association of Schools & Colleges. Operator Pants by LA Police Gear have taken the industry by storm! Try and pair and you won't be sorry.

Philosophically, I support the right to carry for anyone who can exercise the responsibility for proper care and awareness. I have found, by and large, that citizens who do carry concealed are very pro-law enforcement and would be very willing to come to your aid if you were in the middle of a fire fight. This can be good and bad but I try never to forget that they are supporters of law enforcement, not felons. This is a BIG difference.

Here are some thoughts to share with your personnel when they have to contact citizens who may be carrying concealed.

People who have gone through the process of getting a concealed carry permit are, in general, law abiding citizens, not felons.
Do not expect them to know the letter of the law or the interpretations of the law in various districts—they will have a general idea what the law states
IF THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE to treat someone who may be carrying a concealed weapon as an armed criminal, by all means do so — however, when you make a contact with a CCW, proning them out wouldn’t be my first option without digging a little deeper.

article here

[wildhawker]

Full article here:

Dealing with citizens legally carrying a concealed weapon

With 48 of our 50 states allowing some form of CCW permit, the possibility of encountering a law-abiding, pro-law enforcement person carrying a gun is significant, and growing
As the ‘right to carry’ spreads across the United States, many law enforcement agencies and police officers express their unease — and for some, outright alarm — at the idea of citizens carrying concealed weapons.

In an effort to disseminate useful information that would be of benefit to law enforcement, let me talk about this issue from both sides of the fence so to speak.

As a former law enforcement officer, I have had to address concealed carry issues as part of my regular duties. In Colorado, where I live, guns are as natural a part of life as putting on your pants and hat. It is not uncommon to see a rifle or shotgun in the rifle rack in the back of any pickup truck window.

I live in one of the best parts of the country for deer and elk hunting. Come hunting season and we have literally thousands of hunters coming to Colorado to hunt. I never worried about contacting individuals where the guns were in plain sight. Without fail, the people contacted were forthright and honest in their manner and deeds. When I would ask if they had any handguns, they would tell me where they were and what they had.


Philosophically, I support the right to carry for anyone who can exercise the responsibility for proper care and awareness. I have found, by and large, that citizens who do carry concealed are very pro-law enforcement and would be very willing to come to your aid if you were in the middle of a fire fight. This can be good and bad but I try never to forget that they are supporters of law enforcement, not felons. This is a BIG difference.

Here are some thoughts to share with your personnel when they have to contact citizens who may be carrying concealed.

• People who have gone through the process of getting a concealed carry permit are, in general, law abiding citizens, not felons.
• Do not expect them to know the letter of the law or the interpretations of the law in various districts—they will have a general idea what the law states
• IF THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE to treat someone who may be carrying a concealed weapon as an armed criminal, by all means do so — however, when you make a contact with a CCW, proning them out wouldn’t be my first option without digging a little deeper

Here are some more thoughts to consider.

Manner of Dress
Concealed carry folks and cops seem to go to the same tailor — generally speaking, most will not look like dirt bags. They are generally conservatives in viewpoint and tend to dress the part. Many are professional people who will be more neatly dressed. They don’t generally have the crotch of their pants at knee height or wear their baseball hat cocked at a ridiculous angle.

The discriminating CCW carrier also falls prey to fashion just like cops do. The “tactical look” is in. Look at the various brands of advertised tactical gear and clothing or concealed carry wear. Study the brand names and learn what the clothes look like. Felons don’t generally go for this look but CCW carriers and many cops do.

I look for “tactical carry” vests — such as 5.11 Tactical, Blackhawk, Concealed Carry Clothiers or other “brand name” items — along with some sort logo baseball hat, long sleeved shirt, side cargo pocket pants or jeans with sturdy, lightweight, and hiking footwear to complete the “uniform.”

Colder weather finds CCW carriers wearing jackets and windbreakers — unzipped jackets can be an indicator of concealed carry in cold weather.

They may or may not be wearing some sort of sporting goods or gun manufacturer logo.

Oakley or similar impact resistant, higher profile eye wear in daylight rounds out the basics.

In hot weather, some will have a shirt hanging over the belt line to conceal an in the pants holster. Any sort of outer garment in hot weather or the shirt hanging out over the pants is cause for further scrutiny.

Concealed carriers generally wear holsters! This is a key point. Most felons I have known or have heard about won’t carry a firearm in a holster. Also common are fanny packs. These two things alone can be a big tip off that you are not dealing with a felon. Day planners, briefcases, backpacks are less common but available. Study the gear catalogs and remember the look of those products.

Off duty cops will also wear the above many times. Look at the shoes. In my area, if they are black, nine times out of ten they are either a cop or a security guard. Areas with military personnel have other indicators to look at.

Look at the belt line. Are they even wearing a belt? Look at the belt and the buckle if they are wearing one. Gun belts are generally a bit thicker and most times wider than a standard dress belt. Web belts with hard core buckles, 1.5” thick leather belts with strong buckles are indicators of concealed carry.

BlackHawk has a dress belt that is 1 ¼” that simulates a smaller dress belt. Look at it. There are only a couple of styles and colors. They have some sort of reptile skin pattern.

Look for bulges on one side of the body which you can see under clothing. Some wear a T-shirt over their gun and it will bulge conspicuously. Bulges in the pocket for the small autos or revolvers are something to look for. Look for bulges when they bend over and the butt of the gun may stick out slightly.

I don’t know of any CCW carriers that carry a gun in the hood of their sweatshirt like felons are known to do. I do know many that carry one in a jacket or coat pocket. Look for the sag on that side.

Look at the hem line of long pants, one side may droop more if the gun is pulling that side down. If carrying an ankle holster, it will bulge the inner part of the pant around the ankle.

Deep cover carry around the groin (and elsewhere) will be hard to pick up visually, particularly when dealing with a small gun. Only a pat down search will reveal it.

Watch for accessories — CCW’s carry the same gear as cops. An expensive folding knife in the pocket, a Surefire flashlight, and even magazine pouches are all indicators.

Are they right- or left-handed? Most carry the gun on the strong side of the body. What side of the body is the wrist watch on (if you can see it)? Right handers generally wear the watch on the opposite hand. This will tip you off on where to look. Is there a cell phone that you can see? What side are they wearing it on? If not on the strong side, then maybe there is a reason for the off-side carry? Possible indicator.

Important note: Don’t stop looking when you find one gun. Look for a second gun, as well as any number of knives, pepper spray, or other weapons.

Demeanor
Most concealed gun carriers have nothing to hide. They are generally not evasive in their speech or mannerisms. They may be nervous, but they are generally forthright in their dealings with law enforcement. If you ask them if they are carrying a handgun, they will most likely tell you. The law in many areas demands that they tell you upon contact.

Don’t expect them to share this information with you on contact though. Some will be nervous enough to forget to tell you or just hope to get through the contact without you noticing. This may be true on car stops for traffic infractions — a technical foul, but not a deal-breaker for me personally.

Being around cops will make many gun carriers nervous. They become self conscious about carrying their gun and will demonstrate that nervousness by their body language. You may key into this as being suspicious behavior. I would suggest evaluating further before you make an assumption.

Off-duty cops have a bad habit of not really concealing the gun well. They don’t seem to mind that it will show or that people may notice and take alarm. After all, they are cops and not bad guys right?

Lawful concealed gun carriers also feel as if they are the “good guys.”

I once had a driver/bodyguard for a foreign dignitary during a car stop come out of the car quickly and come rapidly my way while reaching behind him to his right rear waistband. I had already drawn my weapon at that threat indicator, and when I commanded him to stop he was suddenly acutely aware of his faux pas.

He was in a hurry to get the dignitary to a meeting and wanted to establish his bona fides with me ASAP. In his mind, he was a “good guy” and didn’t realize what he had done when reaching for his wallet while rapidly coming out of the vehicle toward me. Remember, they don’t always think ahead or have rehearsal training in how to interact with law enforcement.

Again, this demeanor will show upon contact if you are a uniformed officer contacting an off duty one. Smart idea to carry the badge next to the gun if you are going to advertise that you are a cop.

Be aware that there are “concealed carry” badges for sale out there that look similar to cop badges. Really check to see what you are looking at and check other forms of ID as well.

I would expect there will be forgeries out there as well. Know what the concealed carry license looks like from your area and see if you can get photos of concealed carry ID cards from other areas of the country. Other forms of ID to compare with the concealed carry ID would be helpful such as driver’s license, etc.

Behaviors
Among the things that I look for when evaluating a potential gun carrier are various forms of evasive behaviors

• Looking away or avoiding eye contact when talking to them — this is suspicious to me and is not in the manner of a law abiding gun carrier
• Moving away, getting out of sight when they see a uniformed officer— again, suspicious to me

Behaviors not typical of lawful CCW carriers

• Challenging to fight
• Gang style clothing and manner of dress.
• Gang signs and posturing
• Belligerent attitude unless provoked

Obviously there are many others but I am sure you get the basic picture.

Shared Behaviors
This is normal behavior and/ or indicators from most of the gun carriers I see, cops, CCW carriers and other gun carrying personnel carrying discreetly.

• Shifting of the clothing — such as hitching up the pants, moving a jacket in place, pulling a pant leg over something, etc. — especially when getting in or out of a vehicle or getting up from sitting
• Not zipping up a jacket when it’s cold out
• Touching the area of clothing over the gun with any part of the forearm, elbow or hand
• Checking out their surrounding constantly — the head on a swivel
• Stopping with back to a wall

[wildhawker]

contd:

I’m not quite sure whether this is a subconscious affirmation of protection or self conscious behavior. I just know they do it. Again, only the highly trained and disciplined ones don’t do it.

Stances or Postures
A bladed stance upon contact — combined with manner of dress and demeanor — would be indicative of concealed carry. Many will do this without realizing they are doing it. I don’t really see it as aggressive behavior. They are just being cautious like you or I would be.

Sometimes a CCW carrier will touch their fingertips to each other in front when contacted. They often have a more alert, balanced stance than the typical, sitting-on—the-heels, slouched back posture of the average person. A perception of “readiness” will be conveyed to you quite clearly.

Education and Public Awareness
Rather than seeing CCW as a necessary evil, I would look upon it as an opportunity to work with your citizens. In talking with CCW carriers in my courses I have had numerous opportunities to get their point of view on this subject. By and large, they are very pro-law enforcement and will go out of their way to help you should the need arise. I treat them with respect and as a resource.

Law abiding citizens do not expect to be treated like a felon — nor should they be. They will be angry if you prone them out, spread eagle them against a wall, or take their firearm from them without just cause. Good point to remember: A little thought and common sense goes a long way here.

When I made contacts with suspected concealed gun carriers, I would first position myself to advantage and then ask if they were carrying a firearm. If they replied in the affirmative, I would then ask them not to touch it and tell me where it was. I would them have them put their hands away from it during the time of the contact if it was in public. I would not disarm them unless there was demonstrated cause and/or I was going to arrest.

On traffic stops, I would ask them to keep their hands on the steering wheel at all times unless I asked them to do something. If I needed more from them, I would ask them to remove the firearm, after I have stepped back, and then get out of the vehicle so I can finish the contact. A pat down search is appropriate after they have left the vehicle.


I don’t expect them to be experts on the law. Most will understand the gist of it but may get lost on certain points.

In some parts of the country, it is legal to carry a handgun within the confines of your vehicle while traveling. If you ask them to get out of the car however, they are now “carrying concealed” and it’s you who has put them in this position. They may be flustered or nervous and not know what to do. I advocate education, not enforcement, under these circumstances.

If they grossly violated provisions of statute, then it is your call on what to do. There is a culture and custom that exists in every area of the country on what is expected on both sides of the aisle — law enforcement and the general public. It is largely unwritten, but definitely there.

If it was a traffic or other violation combined with being under the influence of alcohol or drugs, then you have a couple of problems to deal with. Disarming is appropriate without letting them handle the firearm as soon as it is safe for you to do so. Proceed as per your usual policies, putting them in a position of disadvantage and controlling the arm on the side of the gun when you take it from them. Make sure you deal with the gun safely when you do take it.

Obviously, hostile behavior should be treated just like any other felon contact.

Consider having a pamphlet made up that explains concealed carry in layman’s terms instead of dry legal prose. Have a question and answer section of the most commonly asked questions that you will get. When you make a citizen contact with a CCW, give them a pamphlet.

Keep in mind that though they carry firearms, CCW permit holders don’t expect to be treated like felons when contacted for minor infractions or otherwise. A little care and consideration goes a long way in avoiding unnecessary conflict.


About the author
Ron Avery is President and Director of Training for The Practical Shooting Academy, Inc. and Executive Director of the non-profit, Rocky Mountain Tactical Institute - both training institutions dedicated to professional firearms and tactics courses, higher police standards and training and use of force research. Train with Ron Avery. Visit his Course Calendar. Ron is a former police officer with many years of street experience, which he brings into the training environment. He is internationally recognized as a researcher, firearms trainer and world class shooter. His training methodology is currently being used by hundreds of agencies and thousands of individuals across the US and internationally. Ron has worked as a consultant and trainer for top level federal agencies, special operations military from all branches of the armed forces and law enforcement agencies across the US. He is a weapons and tactics trainer for handgun, carbine, select fire, precision rifle and shotgun, as well as advanced instructor schools, defensive tactics, team skills and tactics, low light tactics, arrest and control and officer survival.

[bigstick61]

My godfather is one of those cops (CHP sergeant) who is alarmed by law-abiding citizens carrying guns. I had a conversation on the topic with him at my grandmother's funeral a couple of weeks ago. My father started by asking what he thought of open carry. My godfather said anyone who open carries is a fool and an idiot, even someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them. Basically if he notices someone open or concealed carrying that's not a cop he will start a confrontation. All the while he was carrying his Glock partially concealed in an IWB holster in plain clothes with no badge exposed. Hypocrisy if I ever saw it. I didn't push the matter because as he was saying it his tone rose up like the thought of it upset him and I didn't want to get into a big ol' argument and create bad blood right there, especially since my father in an argument with a cop will always take the pro-LEO side since on an issue likee this he will defer to whatever opinion a LEO has, regardless of the facts.

[NiteQwill]

The article only applies to the other free states, not California.

[jaymz]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=326029

[exklusve]

Originally Posted by bigstick61

someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them.

Some people wonder why everyone doesn't have a positive view/attitude about the law enforcement...
Case and point right here.

[Pig Rifle]

This article was just great. This guy sounds like one of the good ones for sure.

[Stonewalker]

Originally Posted by bigstick61

My godfather is one of those cops (CHP sergeant) who is alarmed by law-abiding citizens carrying guns. I had a conversation on the topic with him at my grandmother's funeral a couple of weeks ago. My father started by asking what he thought of open carry. My godfather said anyone who open carries is a fool and an idiot, even someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them. Basically if he notices someone open or concealed carrying that's not a cop he will start a confrontation. All the while he was carrying his Glock partially concealed in an IWB holster in plain clothes with no badge exposed. Hypocrisy if I ever saw it. I didn't push the matter because as he was saying it his tone rose up like the thought of it upset him and I didn't want to get into a big ol' argument and create bad blood right there, especially since my father in an argument with a cop will always take the pro-LEO side since on an issue likee this he will defer to whatever opinion a LEO has, regardless of the facts.

It sounds like you've already arrived at this conclusion, but your godfather is bastard, an elitist and a bad cop and shouldn't be in authority over us 2nd-class-sheep-citizens.

I'm sorry for my harsh words, but his attitude is extremely anti-liberty and anti-2A. Our freedom in America would be safer if he wasn't a cop.

[morfeeis]

• Checking out their surrounding constantly — the head on a swivel
• Stopping with back to a wall

i do these two all the time no matter what....

[RomanDad]

Originally Posted by bigstick61

My godfather is one of those cops (CHP sergeant) who is alarmed by law-abiding citizens carrying guns. I had a conversation on the topic with him at my grandmother's funeral a couple of weeks ago. My father started by asking what he thought of open carry. My godfather said anyone who open carries is a fool and an idiot, even someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them. Basically if he notices someone open or concealed carrying that's not a cop he will start a confrontation. All the while he was carrying his Glock partially concealed in an IWB holster in plain clothes with no badge exposed. Hypocrisy if I ever saw it. I didn't push the matter because as he was saying it his tone rose up like the thought of it upset him and I didn't want to get into a big ol' argument and create bad blood right there, especially since my father in an argument with a cop will always take the pro-LEO side since on an issue likee this he will defer to whatever opinion a LEO has, regardless of the facts.

Wow..... What a dick.

[morfeeis]

Originally Posted by bigstick61

My godfather is one of those cops (CHP sergeant) who is alarmed by law-abiding citizens carrying guns. I had a conversation on the topic with him at my grandmother's funeral a couple of weeks ago. My father started by asking what he thought of open carry. My godfather said anyone who open carries is a fool and an idiot, even someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them. Basically if he notices someone open or concealed carrying that's not a cop he will start a confrontation. All the while he was carrying his Glock partially concealed in an IWB holster in plain clothes with no badge exposed. Hypocrisy if I ever saw it. I didn't push the matter because as he was saying it his tone rose up like the thought of it upset him and I didn't want to get into a big ol' argument and create bad blood right there, especially since my father in an argument with a cop will always take the pro-LEO side since on an issue likee this he will defer to whatever opinion a LEO has, regardless of the facts.

as stonewalker said my words will be harsh but the truth is the truth, it sounds more like fear then anything. he's uneasy with anyone being on even footing with him and when they are there's a big problem and he threatened by it. sounds like a wimp with a gun, drawing on someone should be the thing you do when there is no other option.

[Pixs]

Originally Posted by morfeeis

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstick61 View Post
My godfather is one of those cops (CHP sergeant) who is alarmed by law-abiding citizens carrying guns. I had a conversation on the topic with him at my grandmother's funeral a couple of weeks ago. My father started by asking what he thought of open carry. My godfather said anyone who open carries is a fool and an idiot, even someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them. Basically if he notices someone open or concealed carrying that's not a cop he will start a confrontation. All the while he was carrying his Glock partially concealed in an IWB holster in plain clothes with no badge exposed. Hypocrisy if I ever saw it. I didn't push the matter because as he was saying it his tone rose up like the thought of it upset him and I didn't want to get into a big ol' argument and create bad blood right there, especially since my father in an argument with a cop will always take the pro-LEO side since on an issue likee this he will defer to whatever opinion a LEO has, regardless of the facts.

as stonewalker said my words will be harsh but the truth is the truth, it sounds more like fear then anything. he's uneasy with anyone being on even footing with him and when they are there's a big problem and he threatened by it. sounds like a wimp with a gun, drawing on someone should be the thing you do when there is no other option.

Hi Folks,
This is a much more positive approach to a problem than name calling and anger. The CHP srg. in the post makes me wounder just how prevalent this attitude is among Cal LEOs. Certainly, the individual needs intervention for a problem that can best be recognized by trained professionals from the mental health field. At the very least he needs to read the posted article that is linked in the first post. I would hope that no law abiding person would suffer an injury at this guy's hands or a certain E. Paolo Alto . LEO mentioned in another post on this board.
Best to all,
Pixs

[tonelar]

Originally Posted by bigstick61

My godfather...

displays the mode of thinking encountered in people who get into Law Enforcement for the wrong reasons. His is NOT the prevalent attitude in the majority of LEOs I run into professionally.
He should draw down on a State or Federal security detail sometime... if one is ever likely to make its way into Mayberry, CA.

[Left Coast Conservative]

This is a really great article, but did anyone take the time to read the article linked within it on citizens assisting LEOs?

Here is an interesting quote:

They are not aware that many states authorize officers to request and even demand assistance from citizens who are then bound by law to assist.

Does there exist a legal obligation to assist and officer, if requested, in California?

[gobler]

Originally Posted by Left Coast Conservative

This is a really great article, but did anyone take the time to read the article linked within it on citizens assisting LEOs?

Here is an interesting quote:



Does there exist a legal obligation to assist and officer, if requested, in California?

Yes. Or at least there was in 1986/87

[CCWFacts]

I believe that most cops in the shall-issue states feel basically the same way as that author, and that's great. I wish the others who don't feel that way would read it. The author puts it very well: CCWers who are stopped for infractions don't expect to be treated as felons. I like his attitude and I believe it is a common attitude among LEOs in the CCW regions.

[bigstick61]

Originally Posted by tonelar

displays the mode of thinking encountered in people who get into Law Enforcement for the wrong reasons. His is NOT the prevalent attitude in the majority of LEOs I run into professionally.
He should draw down on a State or Federal security detail sometime... if one is ever likely to make its way into Mayberry, CA.

The impression he gave is one of the LEOs he works with mostly having views on the issue similar to his. His reaction is actually the most common I have run across when talking to LEOs outside of places like Calguns.

And I don't take offense at the name-caling. As I said, the only reason I didn't say anything was because I knew it would get very heated very fast.

[FastFinger]

Not to threadjack, but in a similar vein..

INSIDER RUMINATIONS - By Suzi Huntington

Cops and the 2nd Amendment
Our forefathers really knew how to speak eloquently — if only they realized how their beautiful words ould become twisted in modern society. The debate over their meaning rages on and you and I must continue to navigate the minefield of new gun laws created every year. Depending upon who’s controlling the House and Senate, the laws ebb and flow much like the ocean tide on a sandy beach. Can I carry today, tomorrow, next Tuesday or when I’m retired? Who’s on first? Why has this become such a confusing subject?


Constitution For Beginners
Although there are a total of 27 amendments, the first ten are what we’re most familiar with and referred to as The Bill of Rights. These ten amendments were proposed March 4, 1789 and ratified December 15, 1791. All laws, new and old, have their roots in the Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution and should not be taken lightly.

The Second Amendment has been interpreted so much and by so many it makes my head spin. Each time it’s reinterpreted it seems to have about a dozen extra special interest groups adding their two cents-worth because one person was tragically killed by some turd who should have been exterminated years ago. I’m not heartless, I’m just tired of seeing the special “So-and-so Act of Whenever” being passed with much fanfare as a feel-good, this is gonna solve our society’s problems legislation. These laws generally only add extra penalties onto the sentences of those same turds who don’t respect anything or anybody already — they have no effect on their mindset when deciding to victimize innocents.

I think of the Second Amendment as a means for society not only being able to fend for itself, but as one more way of helping you and I on the street. Society has the right and should be expected to take care of themselves. We’ve made too many people dependent on government to do everything for them. I hated all that responsibility when I was on the street and resented it when the community blamed me (the government) for their victimization. I loved it when someone would step in and help quell crime — especially if they were using their rightfully owned gun to do it! We should applaud the people who confront and claim victory over bad guys. Shake the hand and thank the storeowner or clerk who nails the would be robber. Yeah, what they did is dangerous, but it’s their right to protect themselves and others. They don’t have to wait in the equally dangerous situation for one of us to show up and save them. Think about it, they’re taking action. Good vs. evil, and right and wrong must be important to them. Cops are minutes away — when seconds count.


Good For The Goose
Every citizen living in and wanting to keep their state free should be allowed to keep and bear arms, plain and simple. No elitist attitude in that statement. Remember, you and I are citizens first, cops second. There should be none of this “I can carry a gun whenever I want because I’m a cop, but you can’t” mentality. What’s good for us is good for The People too. Society is just as responsible for knowing what’s right and wrong; the only difference between them and us is we’ve got a little more training on the subject and have chosen to be in this profession.

Since moving to a much smaller community than San Diego, I put myself in the boots of the local cops here and think if I were patrolling this vast rural area, I’d feel a comfort in knowing the community was well armed (and they are). My cover unit might have to respond from a neighboring county. If Mr. Smith happened to hear the commotion and showed up with his lever action .30-30 to help my sorry butt, I’d be most appreciative. It’s a simple idea and one I think our founding fathers meant to keep simple. It’s those who don’t want to roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty who want to disarm society. They’ve convinced themselves they’ll be taken care of by someone or something else, but I can tell you we simply can’t take care of everybody and everything. I want people to be empowered to take back their lives, to stand up and be responsible for every aspect of their lives — including their safety.

American Cop Magazine November / December 2009

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by bigstick61

The impression he gave is one of the LEOs he works with mostly having views on the issue similar to his. His reaction is actually the most common I have run across when talking to LEOs outside of places like Calguns.

He is the most common LEO. They don't necessarily really think about these issues before they adopt the consensus of the LEOs around them (aka groupthink).

My buddy is a retired CHP Sgt. Before he retired, he admits he was a "guns only for cops" guy (I don't think he was as extreme as this dinosaur). He went to law school, where he had occasion to actually think about the issues, and turned 180 degrees. Now he's done legal work with Team Billy Jack, joined the NRA, and other things.

Effective outreach to LEO would be good for our community - but I don't know the "how" of it - ESPECIALLY since the LEOs think that citizens don't know jack-**** about the topic (a variation of the "guys automatically know all about shooting" mindset). I think its going to default to painful OJT legal re-training, post Court cases...
.

[Californio]

I believe your Godfather has been indoctrinated into the New California Order preached by the current trainers. When I go to AZ and visit my BIL who is now a retired LEO the mentality is 180. I happen to know two, close to retirement CHP officers, that don't think that way but their politics bends towards Libertarian.

CalCop thank for the read.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by bigstick61

My godfather said anyone who open carries is a fool and an idiot, even someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them. Basically if he notices someone open or concealed carrying that's not a cop he will start a confrontation. All the while he was carrying his Glock partially concealed in an IWB holster

So how'd you end up marrying into a family headed by the Gestapo any who?

[bigstick61]

Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli

So how'd you end up marrying into a family headed by the Gestapo any who?

I'm not married. He's my godfather not my father-in-law. He has been friends with my father since they were in Junior High. They both come from the same area (El Sereno in East L.A.). My father chose him to be my godfather before my baptism. He didn't join the CHP until some time later. I think his time in law enforcement changed him to some degree.

[Wherryj]

Originally Posted by Stonewalker

It sounds like you've already arrived at this conclusion, but your godfather is bastard, an elitist and a bad cop and shouldn't be in authority over us 2nd-class-sheep-citizens.

I'm sorry for my harsh words, but his attitude is extremely anti-liberty and anti-2A. Our freedom in America would be safer if he wasn't a cop.

His behavior is at least unbecoming of someone charged with protecting and serving the population. Why is he so intent upon shooting law-abiding citizens?

Does it threaten his machismo if someone other than a cop has a weapon? Perhaps he needs some psychiatric help. I believe that he's compensating for something-and probably chose this job for the same reason.

[Stonewalker]

Hey bigstick61, I should probably apologize for the 'bastard' name-calling. I'm sorry, I wrote that quickly and angrily. It angers me that LEO, those who have specifically been put in authority over us, are allowed to have this kind of attitude. It's so far from servitude. Every LEO needs to have a servant's heart to be an effective keeper of justice.

I just have so little hope for Police Departments, Sheriff Departments and Federal LE Agencies. It seems that most LEO just want to suck on the teat of a government who promises to take care of them if they keep the status quo. Anyways, thanks for being mature and not jumping on me for my name calling.

The attitude of the officer who wrote the article seems to be pretty good. He seems to know the constitution and he truly seems to want to serve society. These are the kind of attitudes that need to be TAUGHT in criminal justice classes and TRAINED in PD's. Officers need to be PUNISHED for having attitudes of anything other than servitude and upholding the constitution. I'm of the opinion that all public servants need to face SEVERE penalties for partaking in actions that violate the constitution and serve themselves.

Just my feelings on the subject.

[Wulf]

Originally Posted by Pig Rifle

This article was just great. This guy sounds like one of the good ones for sure.

Ron Avery is a long time action pistol/3-gun shooter. It wouldn't surprise me if he's a lot cooler about the idea of civilian CCW than most cops because he's seen a lot of really competent handgunning by joe blow's.

Not to take anything away from what he wrote, but he's had a lot of good exposure to civilians with guns.

[Scott Connors]

Originally Posted by Stonewalker

It sounds like you've already arrived at this conclusion, but your godfather is bastard, an elitist and a bad cop and shouldn't be in authority over us 2nd-class-sheep-citizens.

I'm sorry for my harsh words, but his attitude is extremely anti-liberty and anti-2A. Our freedom in America would be safer if he wasn't a cop.

Remember the line from Blade Runner? "You know the deal, Dekker: if you're not cop, you're little people." The original article should be made required reading for all LEO CE. It might also be a good idea to have LEOs attend a civilian CCW course so as to decrease tensions on both sides: they'll be more familiar with civilians carrying, and there can be some exchange of concerns which will hopefully lead to improved communications.

[Veggie]

The aforementioned godfather seems to forget that police, like military are in a role were they are there to protect and lay down their lives for the people. Not blow them away they second the flinch.

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by Veggie

The aforementioned godfather seems to forget that police, like military are in a role were they are there to protect and lay down their lives for the people. Not blow them away they second the flinch.

Huh? You mean it isn't "To Prone and Shoot"??

.

[Veggie]

Maybe I am young in age but ancient I thinking. :P

[CenterX]

I grew up in a cop neighborhood and cop family hearing, "everyone is guilty of something - all you have to do is write it on the report, and it is so."

I sure hope I don't get caught for my cell phone printing. Slamming me prone could easily end my days of walking and breathing. All for printing - ouch.

What district is he in so I can keep on the spy?

But we are all guilty. Aren't we?

[BillCA]

The OP gives a lot of good information in his article about how CCW holders view themselves as "part of the solution" and are not part of the problem. LEOs should note that the cost to CCW varies but generally speaking, by the time a citizen has obtained that permission slip, he's spent somewhere near $700 to $1100 on the gun, fees, holster, ammo, training, etc. If they have spent that kind of money just to carry legally, they won't want to jeopardize their investment by being stupid or committing crimes.

All of us: Take note of the "identifiers" he lists for spotting a CCW. The sagging hemline of slacks (angled belts too), the types of belts worn, etc. I think it's safe to say that most CCW carriers will be more careful about their clothing and ensuring it hangs or covers adequately when exiting a car or contacting a LEO. It's human nature. But I think they'll only do it once (if confident), such as making sure the suit jacket is fully covering.

This is as opposed to the BG's -- research has shown that BGs illegally carrying will almost always touch the concealed gun multiple times to reassure themselves that it's not exposed and still in place. Repeated touching around a concealed belt line or patting a jacket pocket should be a serious signal to LE.

Originally Posted by bigstick61

My godfather is one of those cops (CHP sergeant) who is alarmed by law-abiding citizens carrying guns. I had a conversation on the topic with him at my grandmother's funeral a couple of weeks ago. My father started by asking what he thought of open carry. My godfather said anyone who open carries is a fool and an idiot, even someone who conceals and carries who is not a cop, and he said something to the effect if he sees someone carrying a gun in a holster or printing, regardless if they are behaving completely lawfully, unless he knows they are a cop, he will draw on them, point the gun at their head, and disarm them, etc. and if they make any move he feels threatened by he will not hesitate to shoot them. Basically if he notices someone open or concealed carrying that's not a cop he will start a confrontation.

The highlighted phrase is of major concern to me as a citizen and taxpayer. Except for a §12031(e) stop, a person who is otherwise behaving lawfully requires no contact from LE. If the LEO sees what he believes is a firearm printing through the clothing and responds with the immediate threat of deadly force, how is that different than pulling a gun on someone simply because they are wearing a legally sheathed knife on their belt?

It doesn't. And should that citizen with the firearm have a CCW or a legal reason for carrying (§12025.5 or is another officer) your godfather's actions could be viewed as excessive force and subject his employer to a costly lawsuit. And should he be mistaken and that "printing gun" turn out to be a Blackberry phone, some audio device or medical device, I can guarantee that he'd be facing a hellva lawsuit.

I'd suggest a casual sitdown with your godfather in a peaceful and low key setting. Let him read the OP's full post and ask him what his thoughts are. Ask him if he'd actually shoot someone over a concealed "bulge" on the strong side. Ask him IF he'd look for other tell-tales that might indicate it's not a gun (e.g. an earbud or its wires). Ask him what he'll do if it turns out it really isn't a gun and the citizen is irate at his treatment. If he suggests he'll "find" some PC to cover his butt, then it's time to have a talk with his superiors. He needs an attitude adjustment.

And I say that not in a vindictive or LEO-bashing tone. I say that to save his career and some citizen the danger he presents. What will he do in another 1-3 years if courts force shall-issue CCW in California? Will he force legal CCW holders out of their cars at gun point, prone them out on a rain-soaked freeway shoulder and seize their firearm? Or shoot them if he "feels threatened" by them lowering a hand to lay down? That will certainly end up being expensive for him and the CHP/State.

Originally Posted by Left Coast Conservative

Does there exist a legal obligation to assist and officer, if requested, in California?

Yes. It's §150 of the Penal Code.

150. Every able-bodied person above 18 years of age who neglects or refuses to join the posse comitatus or power of the county, by neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in taking or arresting any person against whom there may be issued any process, or by neglecting to aid and assist in retaking any person who, after being arrested or confined, may have escaped from arrest or imprisonment, or by neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in preventing any breach of the peace, or the commission of any criminal offense, being thereto lawfully required by any uniformed peace officer, or by any peace officer described in Section 830.1, subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), or (f) of Section 830.2, or subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, who identifies himself or herself with a badge or identification card issued by the officer's employing agency, or by any judge, is punishable by a fine of not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000).

The key here is "able-bodied". That lets off the hook those persons who have some medical or physical condition that would make it dangerous or likey injurious to them to render said assistance. For instance, a pregnant woman, a heart patient, a person with a bad knee, etc., may be justifiably exempt from assisting in a physical sense.

[JimSar]

Originally Posted by CenterX

I sure hope I don't get caught for my cell phone printing. Slamming me prone could easily end my days of walking and breathing. All for printing - ouch.

Nuff lurking. May be off tipic, but this reminds me of a call to Len Tillem, KGO radio "I'm a lawyah" talk show host. A lady in her late 40's went to a supermarket (which I won't name) after her cardiologist fitted her with a heart monitor. Apparently a wire was exposed and the bulge showed through her garb (I guess east Indian from the accent and the community where the supermarket is located). A customer was alarmed and reported an explosive belt, ala suiside bomber, and out of nowhere a security person tackled her to the ground. No tap on the shoulder, just wham, bam, sorry, ma'am. Her first recollection after regaining consciousness was the manager apologizing profusely to her. Of course this never made the papers, so I don't know the outcome. Kinda curious what the cardio monitor showed.

[creekside]

Originally Posted by BillCA

Yes. It's §150 of the Penal Code.

Am I the only one who looked at this and saw "5150 W&IC" instead of "150 PC"?

(5150 is the "danger to self or others" statute.)

[FastFinger]

Originally Posted by JimSar

Nuff lurking. May be off tipic, but this reminds me of a call to Len Tillem, KGO radio "I'm a lawyah" talk show host. A lady in her late 40's went to a supermarket (which I won't name) after her cardiologist fitted her with a heart monitor...

Why won't the supermarket be identified?

[JimSar]

Originally Posted by FastFinger

Why won't the supermarket be identified?

I'm not naming the store because I heard this on a radio talk show, with no independent confirmation from other media or even the internet.

[ddestruel]

Originally Posted by CCWFacts

I believe that most cops in the shall-issue states feel basically the same way as that author, and that's great. I wish the others who don't feel that way would read it. The author puts it very well: CCWers who are stopped for infractions don't expect to be treated as felons. I like his attitude and I believe it is a common attitude among LEOs in the CCW regions.

I have to agree. In Montana you still needed to apply (though the process was simple) to get a CCW permit for inside the city limits of Missoula. You could not carry in a Bar or into a Bank, otherwise you carried just about everywhere else. Interactions with LEO's were always very friendly, in a traffic stop as the officer approached the vehicle it was a common courtesy to notify the officer that you had a concealed firearm. In numerous interactions, where you might be coincidentally in the vicinity of police action, the dialogue was typically Officer to me or another individual as he approached "Are you carrying"? any you would respond with a yes or no that was immediately followed by a conversation about what the officer was preparing to do, how to stay out of his way and if he needed help he would hollar. I was never dis-armed or even asked to relinquish my weapon by a trooper, sheriff or police officer at any time from 21 on when i had my permit. Never an issue and unfortunate that CA LEO's feel so threatened by the people they are supposed to serve not govern over. Let me also point out though that this is not always the case in Ca but it is prevelent. That said most of the LEO's that i know i CA are very cordual friendly people who have a difficult job in a tough enviroment. The contrast in approaches and dialogue with LEO's from one state to another is very different and visable. In Montana most LEO's I knew viewed most law abiding as an asset, resource, peers and treated you as such.

It is a striking contrast now that i live down here in Kalifornia, in many areas but not all. I have experienced similar LEO positive dialogue and treatement by Mendocino county Sheriffs but in other countys or in conversations with LEO's in city's and or with CHP and Sheriffs departments that are not firearm friendly their approach and attitude is different if you even mention private citiznes CCWing.

[locosway]

Originally Posted by BillCA

Yes. It's §150 of the Penal Code.


The key here is "able-bodied". That lets off the hook those persons who have some medical or physical condition that would make it dangerous or likey injurious to them to render said assistance. For instance, a pregnant woman, a heart patient, a person with a bad knee, etc., may be justifiably exempt from assisting in a physical sense.

Couldn't one argue that by not being armed, one is not "able-bodied" as say an officer is?

[Arondos]

What I see posted here is exactly the problem when it comes to LEO's. They have been trained, fed, taught, and retrained that everyone a suspect, person of interest, or has done something wrong.

Anymore if I have contact with an LEO even when making a report as a witness, or a victim I spend more time worried about is this LEO going to try to find a reason to harass me than I do worrying about why I am talking to them.

I saw a poster a while back that talked about law enforcement then versus now. One on side was the I believe Norman Rockwell of a kid and a cop sitting beside each other on bar stools at a diner talking. The new side the cop that on had the swat gear, helmet, and AW.

The police need to realize that the VAST majority the people they serve and protect aren't hardened criminals and they deserve at least some basic courtesy and respect. If I get pulled over, stopped, or interviewed and the LEO doesn't want to give me any respect except to act like I am already guilty then they better be ready for me to give them the same amount of respect in return.

[KylaGWolf]

Originally Posted by morfeeis

i do these two all the time no matter what....

I do that even when I don't carry a gun then again I worked in Juvenile probation and not being aware could be a bad thing.