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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! |
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#1
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M1 Garand euro markings ???
Hello, I am wondering if anyone can help identify these markings that are on my m1 Garand. I bought this earlier M1 this year. I stripped it apart and noticed it had mostly w.w.2 Springfield parts and a few unique markings on the receiver and barrel assembly that appeared to be European or ? The receiver has a C with a small star on top and on the bottom of that is a letter L with fire on top. The receiver face looks like a standard Springfield but is almost blank with a very small triangle and hand stamped serial numbers, The barrel is marked 8x57MR pv b blindee the c with star on top then a crown with a letter R then a fire ball with a letter L. This is strange because now i'm not sure if this is a 30.06 cal or 8x57 ??? Please help, thanks in Advance- firefox
Last edited by firefox 1969; 08-24-2013 at 7:17 PM.. |
#3
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Marcus nailed it ^^
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Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter. Ernest Hemingway, "On the Blue Water," Esquire, April 1936 |
#4
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Wow, an 8mm garand. nice find.
-g
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If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin. -Samuel Adams |
#5
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amazing!look at the machining marks,thats worse than any winchester.be careful,not knowing the metalurgy of the reciever and that most ball 8mm is 196-198 gr i would definately hesitate on firing until a rebarrel was performed.
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#6
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Interesting find!
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#7
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Looks like a U.S. receiver that has been scrubbed and renumbered. The number shown on the underside of the receiver is the drawing number for a U.S. M1 rifle receiver, 32nd revision.
Last edited by smle-man; 07-22-2013 at 8:13 PM.. |
#15
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Not true. This is a military conversion, so it is "original" and very unique.
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*sniff* *sniff* Commies... |
#17
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#18
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#20
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It would be interesting to know more about when this conversion was done, and why.
8mm is a caliber that found most favor in Central Europe - Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, etc., and in various North African, Middle Eastern, and Asian countries. It would seem that this conversion would have been done sometime in the mid-to-late 1940's or early 1950's period when 8mm was still in common use and available. Since Germany (where this weapon would have been prohibited at this time) and other Central Euro nations commonly called this caliber 7.92 mm, the "8mm" designation almost seems more like something meant for the U.S. market....it reminds me of the "8mm" caliber stamping found on many of the Gew 88 rifles and various Spanish Civil War used Mausers that were imported by companies like Interarms in the early 1950's. However, altering a Garand to 8mm would not be a wise move for the American market as .30-06 ammo was readily available and cheap in this period, but 8mm (and many other foreign calibers) was not very plentiful or available - hence the conversion of a number of Ww2 bring-back 98k Mausers to 8mm-06 and Type 99 Arisakas to .30-06. In many countries, a semi-automatic rifle such as this would not have been allowed for civilian possession and use, and it seems that in many of the poorer places in the world where modified (often in Belgium) old surplus military rifles were sold as cheap hunting rifles that there would have been more of a market for old Mausers than a newer and more expensive rifle like a Garand. |
#21
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__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke speech of 23 April 1770, "Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents," delivered to the House of Commons. |
#22
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Also, the US gave the vast majority of our surplus armament to our little ally countries after the war, whether rifles or vehicles. The Belgians probably needed a semi-automatic service rifle right at the end or right after the war and they had plenty of 8mm, so it was cheaper to have their factories re-barrel the M1's rather than wait in line with everyone else in Europe for their hand-out of 30-06. Quote:
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*sniff* *sniff* Commies... |
#23
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Again, while many foreign countries received M1 Rifles as military aid, Belgium wasn't one of them. Quote:
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#24
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I just thought of something. I have heard that Israel converted some M1 Garands to 8mm.
I personally have't seen one, so I couldn't tell you about there proofs and stamps. Maybe FN did the conversions?
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*sniff* *sniff* Commies... |
#25
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(web photo) why would they convert M1 Rifles to 8x57 mm? |
#26
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Israel was formed in 1948. 7.62 NATO was introduced in 1954. So that leaves six years.
The Israelis were given much of the Allies' surplus in captured German small arms, like those K98's, this included millions of rounds of 8mm Mauser. Would only make sense that they would try to work with what they had, especially when the Arabs invaded in 1948.
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*sniff* *sniff* Commies... Last edited by Emdawg; 07-23-2013 at 4:01 PM.. |
#27
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Perhaps it was an experimental version?? Don't see why Belgium couldn't have been considering participating in Lend-Lease after the war.....maybe they experimented with converting the Garand to 8mm?? Decided not to go with it?? And this rifle was sold after the experiment concluded.....sorry if I'm reaching here.
Could've been a Nazi armorer playing around with a captured M1. Maybe he thought the German govt would catch onto the idea and he would get the credit for it. As I recall, the Japanese copied the Garand to a limited extent. |
#28
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I don't think it was a Nazi. He wouldn't have used Belgian proof marks.
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*sniff* *sniff* Commies... |
#29
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Please provide documentation/proof/link/source that either Belgium or Israel had a program of converting M1 Rifles to 8x57. Please show even one other M1 Rifle with either Belgian or Israeli markings that was converted to 8x57. If there was a military conversion program as you claim surely more than the one unique specimen is this thread would have survived. Converted Israeli K98k's are well known and documented. You are claiming some government conversion program for M1 Rifles took place yet no other specimen has surfaced until now? It makes far more sense that the rifle shown in this thread is a civilian/commercial/custom conversion. It is quite common for civilian gunsmiths to convert military surplus rifles to other cartridges. There are plenty of examples in the US of sporterized military surplus rifles converted to other cartridges. |
#30
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Per Google, bblindee translate as Belgin for jacketed bullets.
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareBlindee.htm |
#31
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Here is an interesting conversation from the CMP forum: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=83813
Honestly, there is a lot of "theory". Many Garands that we sent to other countries never made it back home to the US. Who knows what other countries could have done to them and we have no clue what happened. I was just speculating whether his was Israeli or not. The triangle stamp on the back of the reciever could mean that it ended up in Iraq for all we know. All I can say is that it ended up and Belgium at one point. Lots of weird things military armourers do. Quote:
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*sniff* *sniff* Commies... Last edited by Emdawg; 07-23-2013 at 6:52 PM.. |
#32
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Post WW2 the Belgians used #4 Lee-Enfields and then quickly moved to an updated military 98 type mauser action in .30 as a transition piece to the FN49 in .30 M2. I am often wrong but I don't think the Belgians used 8mm rifles. They were 7.65 pre-war and .303 and then .30 post war.
I think it is a commercial conversion done for the civilian market. Belgians have been permitted to own semi auto rifles at least in the past. |
#33
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So are you still saying "This is a military conversion"? |
#34
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I know that they used the 1889 Mauser in 7.65 and then was refurbed in 1936 in anticipation of WW2. The Free Belgian forces used No.1 Mk. III SMLE's. They went to the No. 4 in the later part of the war and right after.
It might be a commercial, but I got a gut feeling that there is more to it. Re-barreling a Garand for the hell of it is silly. Not like Belgium had a shortage of weapons (particularly Mausers) when the war ended.
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#35
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The whole reason why I connected Belguim with Israeli is that FN made K98's for Israel in 7.62 NATO.
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*sniff* *sniff* Commies... Last edited by Emdawg; 07-23-2013 at 9:56 PM.. |
#36
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Your "gut feeling" and belief is based on what? Where are the military markings? I believe you thought that those proof marks = military, but that's incorrect. Last edited by Milsurp Collector; 07-23-2013 at 11:26 PM.. |
#37
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If the barrel is marked Springfield was it made that way, or has the entire barrel been bored and re-lined? Remember the bores on 8mm and 3006 are very different. .323 vs .308 Thats allot, enough to cause a bolt lug shearing pressure spike. I think you need to slug the barrel before you attempt to fire it.
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#38
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I suppose the barrel could've been bored out and re-rifled. Don't know what that involves myself. Would a standard 8mm load bend the op rod?? What was the standard pressures involved with your common 8mm round back in the day?? If this was a custom job, it would be basically for a novelty piece. Nice bolt hunting rifles would have been widely available and of good quality in Europe just after the war. |
#39
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The original barrel was modified. No one made a new barrel out of a block of steel. I really don't understand why people don't follow the principle of Occam's Razor: Quote:
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#40
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