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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #161  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:32 AM
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If this bill doesn’t pass, something like it will eventually. It’s not about controlling crime, it’s not about taking something away from you, our government already knows you won’t comply and they’re not going to chase you down just yet to take contraband and arrest you. Our Government (OG) is ensuring that for every step forward on our part they take three. We whack one mole, more pop up. This is not a fair fight; there is a global media network and a large number of wealthy and influential people working against us. We talk a lot about George Soros and Michael Bloomberg because they are so visible but they are far from alone in this.

Here in California a large number of our fellow citizens either agree with OG or simply don’t care. They want a State that will care for them and do for them what they can’t or won’t do for themselves and don’t want to believe that OG means them harm in any way. Most people, regardless of how they view guns, can’t make a direct correlation between taking an AR 15 out of a middle class family’s gun safe and stopping a “mass shooting”….but they do understand that the common thread in ALL shootings is the gun. Thus common sense would dictate that solving the problem of mass shootings starts with removing the guns. The ensuing “discussion” that all the anti’s seem so anxious to have is to simply an opportunity to drive home that point. And let’s face it, our counter to that sounds good to us, but can sound pretty lame when we’re not preaching to the choir.

The phrase “death by a thousand cuts” is mentioned over and over…in response we use our resources putting out a thousand small fires. Think that’s some happy accident on their part? Nope. Personally, I think we should save our time and treasure for a larger fight. Let the roster dwindle to nothing. Let’s all vote for the most rabid anti-gun candidates, give OG the confidence to seriously do some damage here…we can’t effectively fight to restore rights when the courts are affirming that we haven’t actually lost them! This is one of the reasons OG has been so effective with their agenda. Buy ammo, magazines, and parts all you like, but what if we all put some money aside for a real fight, planned to take sick days to make phone calls, send emails, tweets, YouTube videos, whatever…WE could win if we were in a real fight with a clear and meaningful victory in front of us. That will never happen as long as preserving our rights is always a reactive effort, we need to find a way to lead the antis into a place where we can defeat them. This would be painful in the short term and would require national leadership (hope the NRA is at least thinking about this) and real commitment on our part.

And yes, I’ve read Unintended Consequences… would rather not go there until reasonable alternatives have been explored. I realize most of you won’t share my point of view…
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  #162  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Iminocca View Post
Most people, regardless of how they view guns, can’t make a direct correlation between taking an AR 15 out of a middle class family’s gun safe and stopping a “mass shooting”….but they do understand that the common thread in ALL shootings is the gun. Thus common sense would dictate that solving the problem of mass shootings starts with removing the guns. The ensuing “discussion” that all the anti’s seem so anxious to have is to simply an opportunity to drive home that point. And let’s face it, our counter to that sounds good to us, but can sound pretty lame when we’re not preaching to the choir.
/\ This. I'll be totally honest, I can't come up with a good counter to the argument that we don't NEED an AR15 that would change anyone's mind, when in their mind an AR15 is equivalent to a hand grenade.
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  #163  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:57 AM
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i'm with you on the most part.

i do feel that we need to just let the antis go full hog and pass a law that bans an entire category of firearms so then we can hit them back in a big way.

let them ban all semi-auto rifles. then take them to court and have that law, and potentially the associated laws that bans features or configurations would be struck down too. sure it would be a tough decade to wait for the court case to work itself to the 9th circuit court, and maybe even supreme court, but the end result may be better and knock the antis back for a while.

or just say f' it and move out of state. CA is a lost cause. since joining the shooting community 10 years ago (damn can't believe it has been that long since i joined the shooting community), i have only seen more restrictions/laws get added, and zero gains. all efforts to get what we have now, has all been due to finding out the holes left in the anti-gun laws, none were gained due to removing an anti-gun law.
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  #164  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:06 AM
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/\ This. I'll be totally honest, I can't come up with a good counter to the argument that we don't NEED an AR15 that would change anyone's mind, when in their mind an AR15 is equivalent to a hand grenade.
The antis deliberately (and skillfully) keep the focus on "needing" an AR15. Rights don't exist to protect needs, the only need that applies here is the one to protect our rights! Rights exist to protect a minority from the tyranny of a majority. Antis completely ignore the irony of removing a right because they say a majority "wants to". There was a time and place in this country where "most people" wanted segregation, that certainly wasn't justification for that ugliness. The right to arms is a civil right along with all our other civil rights.

The argument that an AR15 is not protected as a weapon of war is a false one. When the Bill of Rights was written muzzle loaders all that existed...used for war, hunting, protection, no difference. And to say that todays guns are more lethal is also a false argument given that a gunshot wound itself was more deadly in the 18th century. Not fun to take a round to gut in 1780 with no 911, no antibiotics, no sterile procedures, just an agonizing certain death.

Last edited by Iminocca; 04-20-2018 at 11:09 AM..
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  #165  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:22 AM
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I counter the argument of "I don't need an AR-15" like so:

In 1934, poor people didn't NEED machine guns, so they required a $200 (equivalent to $3,600 in 2018 dollars) tax to buy one.

In 1986, people didn't NEED machine guns at all, so they were banned outright.

In 1999, people didn't NEED semiautomatic AR-15's with detachable magazines, so they were banned outright.

In 2016, people didn't NEED semiautomatic AR-15's with even non-detachable magazines, so they were banned outright.

In 2018, people don't NEED semiautomatic AR-15's. At all.

Where does it end? When do you get to decide that the only things that are left are the things I need? Do I NEED a shotgun? Do I NEED pepper spray? And when did something being "needed" for anything become a rational basis for whether or not it should be banned? Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches cause hundreds of deaths every year, should we ban them because we don't NEED them? Do you NEED kitchen knives, that kill thousands more people every year than AR-15's? Do you NEED your gluten-free rice cakes? Or your pot?

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 04-20-2018 at 11:26 AM..
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  #166  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I counter the argument of "I don't need an AR-15" like so:

In 1934, poor people didn't NEED machine guns, so they required a $200 (equivalent to $3,600 in 2018 dollars) tax to buy one.

In 1986, people didn't NEED machine guns at all, so they were banned outright.

In 1999, people didn't NEED semiautomatic AR-15's with detachable magazines, so they were banned outright.

In 2016, people didn't NEED semiautomatic AR-15's with even non-detachable magazines, so they were banned outright.

In 2018, people don't NEED semiautomatic AR-15's. At all.

Where does it end? When do you get to decide that the only things that are left are the things I need? Do I NEED a shotgun? Do I NEED pepper spray? And when did something being "needed" for anything become a rational basis for whether or not it should be banned? Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches cause hundreds of deaths every year, should we ban them because we don't NEED them? Do you NEED kitchen knives, that kill thousands more people every year than AR-15's? Do you NEED your gluten-free rice cakes? Or your pot?
Devils advocate: Tell me the last time someone killed 50+ people in short order with a kitchen knife.
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  #167  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:44 AM
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I know it’s apples and oranges but when an anti uses the “why do you need an AR15” arguemet I immediately say “why do you need a car that goes faster than the speed limit?” Quick effective counter argument. Till you can get them on the usual emotional reasoning the antis use to ban guns. Then slaughter them with logic. Yes I know they are not logical but I feel better when I do.
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  #168  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:04 PM
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Devils advocate: Tell me the last time someone killed 50+ people in short order with a kitchen knife.
When a single airline accident happens, a LOT of people die at once. WAY, WAY more than in any single car accident. So, does that mean airline travel is substantially less safe than car travel?

Tell me the last time 583 people died in a car accident.

Of course I'm being facetious - the death count per event is irrelevant to public safety policy, what matters is the overall rate. And far, far more people gets killed by kitchen knives or plane crashes or car accidents or peanut allergies every day, than shot by AR-15's.

However, much like plane accidents, mass deaths caused by anything (including AR-15's) are sensational news. Car accidents never make CNN headlines. Neither do kitchen knife stabbings. Or allergic reactions to peanuts. Or the 22 veterans that commit suicide every day. These things happen so frequently that nobody cares. What people care about are the rare events that claim a number of lives at once. It's human nature, and it's why some people irrationally fear air travel or AR-15's, despite the enormous number of other things that are far, far, FAR more likely to kill them in a given day.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 04-20-2018 at 12:19 PM..
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  #169  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:04 PM
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Devils advocate: Tell me the last time someone killed 50+ people in short order with a kitchen knife.
How about nearly three thousand?

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  #170  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:39 PM
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I need an AR-15 for the same reason people have insurance policies, locks on their doors, surveillance cameras for their homes, etc. Nobody actually wants to be in a position where they have to use any of those things but back in reality things happen. And in the event that something does it is there as a type of insurance policy. And like locks and cameras the presence that I and others own AR's act as a deterrent to some things ever happening to begin with. If somebody created a lock free community how long do you think it would be until it was targeted for theft?
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  #171  
Old 04-20-2018, 1:13 PM
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^^^

Exactly.

And how do they know what I need? Are they psychic? Do they have a crystal ball?

I think they don't have a need to be elected officials so they should resign immediately.
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  #172  
Old 04-20-2018, 1:21 PM
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  #173  
Old 04-20-2018, 1:24 PM
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One thing is certain - if AR-15's are banned, it will not stop mass killers. It won't even slow them down. It will just force them to consider other tools, some of which are potentially much, much worse.

The day semi-auto rifles become inaccessible, is the same day that we start seeing Boston Marathon and Oklahoma City style bombings replacing them. No longer will those bombings be a once-per-decade atrocity, they'll be monthly. And there's NOTHING anyone can do to stop it when it starts happening. Pick your poison - I'd rather have psychopaths with AR-15's than bombs, any day.

The solution is to reduce the psychopaths, not the tools. There will always be tools.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 04-20-2018 at 1:31 PM..
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  #174  
Old 04-20-2018, 1:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
One thing is certain - if AR-15's are banned, it will not stop mass killers. It won't even slow them down. It will just force them to consider other tools, some of which are potentially much, much worse.

The day semi-auto rifles become inaccessible, is the same day that we start seeing Boston Marathon and Oklahoma City style bombings replacing them. No longer will those bombings be a once-per-decade atrocity, they'll be monthly. And there's NOTHING anyone can do to stop it when it starts happening. Pick your poison - I'd rather have psychopaths with AR-15's than bombs, any day.

The solution is to reduce the psychopaths, not the tools. There will always be tools.
I agree but psychopaths have more rights in California than gun owners and the majority of voters hate gun owners.
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  #175  
Old 04-20-2018, 2:20 PM
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When it comes right down to it anti-gunners are no different in spirit than the segregationists who stalled, muddled and foot dragged over "Brown" and desegregation. PG County in VA, IIRC, closed their public schools and made them private in response. They did with Brown, as anti-gunners do with Heller, fundamentally reject the court's decision. This is what we're up against.

It took a fair amount of time for anti-gunners to go from pushing "gunshow loophole" to UBC. Remember it took a few years of us telling them there is no gunshow loophole, so they increased their position for such restrictions. Similarly with "Assault Weapons" as compared to plain old semi-auto rifles. It took what, 6 months or so to go from pushing a ban on AWs to a ban on all semi-rifles? How long do we suppose it will take them to go from "no one needs a 30 round magazine" to "no one needs three 10 round magazines" and a license required to buy or possess? I'm surprised they haven't included magazines in the current bill.

Last edited by dfletcher; 04-20-2018 at 2:23 PM..
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  #176  
Old 04-20-2018, 3:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
One thing is certain - if AR-15's are banned, it will not stop mass killers. It won't even slow them down. It will just force them to consider other tools, some of which are potentially much, much worse.

The day semi-auto rifles become inaccessible, is the same day that we start seeing Boston Marathon and Oklahoma City style bombings replacing them. No longer will those bombings be a once-per-decade atrocity, they'll be monthly. And there's NOTHING anyone can do to stop it when it starts happening. Pick your poison - I'd rather have psychopaths with AR-15's than bombs, any day.

The solution is to reduce the psychopaths, not the tools. There will always be tools.
You want to see some scary s**t go on YouTube and search for "home made flamethrower"...lots of Darwin Award candidates! Haven't done the search lately, some of those videos really should have been removed...
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  #177  
Old 04-20-2018, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tofuti View Post
Devils advocate: Tell me the last time someone killed 50+ people in short order with a kitchen knife.
Or how about this guy taking on armed police officers and killing one and injuring the rest. They were shooting at him as well. Fast forward though to about 5:35 in the video.
if the video doesn't work click the link.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RT...has_verified=1


Oh and London is having huge problems with knife attacks.
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  #178  
Old 04-20-2018, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
One thing is certain - whenif AR-15's are banned, it will not stop mass killers. It won't even slow them down. It will just force them to consider other tools, some of which are potentially much, much worse.

The day semi-auto rifles become inaccessible, is the same day that we start seeing Boston Marathon and Oklahoma City style bombings replacing them. No longer will those bombings be a once-per-decade atrocity, they'll be monthly. And there's NOTHING anyone can do to stop it when it starts happening. Pick your poison - I'd rather have psychopaths with AR-15's than bombs, any day.

The solution is to reduce the psychopaths, not the tools. There will always be tools.
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Public Safety Chairman Reggie Jones Sawyer, D-Los Angeles said, “This is California; we don’t pay too much attention to the Constitution,”
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  #179  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tofuti View Post
Devils advocate: Tell me the last time someone killed 50+ people in short order with a kitchen knife.
I'll show you a few examples where they did it with a motor vehicle. Maybe we should ban those?
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  #180  
Old 04-20-2018, 9:20 PM
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if any of the demented shooters had the intelligence of a snail they could have effected far greater damage using explosives and timed bombs like terrorists. No one can prevent some demented person from killing but it could always be worse if they had thought it out for maximum damage. Certain people in this tread appear to be trolls baiting us and they ignore the fact that at some point society has to take risks in order to defend their rights. you would have no Bill of Rights if it were not for the second amendment in the hands of the citizens. Where are the parents, the teachers, and the government officials who have been preaching the liberal anti-gun garbage because they have managed to insulate themselves from being fired or removed from office. When does california start involuntary "re-education" camps? When your family is being murdered in front of you and because they are not yet dead the cops won't respond until they are. Is this the society you want to live in? make sure the criminals know who the anti gun people are so they cannot hide among us. If criminals are going to kill someone let them kill the people who voted for forced disarmament and lets see how well the liberals like the cops who never respond or not having a gun to defend themselves when they need it and watch their children gunned down courtesy of their anti-gun laws. the next time my neighbor asks to borrow my pressure cooker I might never look at him or her the same again. (LOL)

Last edited by big red; 04-20-2018 at 9:25 PM..
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  #181  
Old 04-20-2018, 9:40 PM
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i'm with you on the most part.

i do feel that we need to just let the antis go full hog and pass a law that bans an entire category of firearms so then we can hit them back in a big way.

let them ban all semi-auto rifles. then take them to court and have that law, and potentially the associated laws that bans features or configurations would be struck down too. sure it would be a tough decade to wait for the court case to work itself to the 9th circuit court, and maybe even supreme court, but the end result may be better and knock the antis back for a while.

or just say f' it and move out of state. CA is a lost cause. since joining the shooting community 10 years ago (damn can't believe it has been that long since i joined the shooting community), i have only seen more restrictions/laws get added, and zero gains. all efforts to get what we have now, has all been due to finding out the holes left in the anti-gun laws, none were gained due to removing an anti-gun law.
The Supreme Court lately isn't even hearing gun cases leaving it up to the courts below. Plus Gorsuch now is no sure thing siding with the liberals just last week. Don't hold your breath for the SCOTUS to save the day. They're part of the swamp, too.
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  #182  
Old 04-21-2018, 12:33 AM
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I know it’s apples and oranges but when an anti uses the “why do you need an AR15” arguemet I immediately say “why do you need a car that goes faster than the speed limit?”
I had that exact conversation. He thought it would be a swell idea to force car manufacturers to hook up GPS to a data link that pulls speed limits for the road you're on and electronically limit the car to the speed limit. As a person who has to think these proposals through to their idiotic inevitability in an attempt to functionally implement them, I was furious. I spent the next 10 minutes telling him in very specific detail why he was retarded and why the idea was murderously dangerous when forced, and completely ineffectual when not.

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  #183  
Old 04-21-2018, 1:04 AM
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A bad dream...
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Old 04-21-2018, 1:26 AM
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I had that exact conversation. He thought it would be a swell idea to force car manufacturers to hook up GPS to a data link that pulls speed limits for the road you're on and electronically limit the car to the speed limit. As a person who has to think these proposals through to their idiotic inevitability in an attempt to functionally implement them, I was furious. I spent the next 10 minutes telling him in very specific detail why he was retarded and why the idea was murderously dangerous when forced, and completely ineffectual when not.

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That's the correct term. Statist. Not rightist/leftist, not liberal/conservative, progressive, regressive, just statist. One who believes the government solves all problems and cures all societal ills. They come from both sides of the political aisle. They are the antithesis of liberty, as they promote totalitarianism.
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  #185  
Old 04-21-2018, 3:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tofuti View Post
Devils advocate: Tell me the last time someone killed 50+ people in short order with a kitchen knife.
Just saw this.

It might fit under: "Be careful what you ask for."

10/1/15 - Fifty killed in a knife attack at a Chinese colliery

Okay. It wasn't "50+," but 19 killed and 26 injured...

7/26/16 - Japan knife attack: At least 19 dead

As you say, just playing "Devil's advocate."
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  #186  
Old 04-21-2018, 5:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
In 5 years youre not going to be able to count all the misdemeanors in your gun safe, even using all of your fingers and toes.
Hell, I'm probably at that point already, or worse. And I'm a law abiding citizen.
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  #187  
Old 04-21-2018, 9:12 AM
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On topic...

I'd suggest renewing and cultivating your relationships with friends in other states. They buy what you need, you send them a check and they send you the parts.

This obviously doesn't include items needing a transfer through an FFL.
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  #188  
Old 04-21-2018, 9:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
I had that exact conversation. He thought it would be a swell idea to force car manufacturers to hook up GPS to a data link that pulls speed limits for the road you're on and electronically limit the car to the speed limit. As a person who has to think these proposals through to their idiotic inevitability in an attempt to functionally implement them, I was furious. I spent the next 10 minutes telling him in very specific detail why he was retarded and why the idea was murderously dangerous when forced, and completely ineffectual when not.

You can't cure statism.

Statism is a symptom of a severe lead deficiency. Prescription is multiple lead injections.
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  #189  
Old 04-21-2018, 10:12 AM
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I sent in a letter heckin' fast. It would be a nightmare coming up with regulations for this since there's just too many types of guns out there. The central part of any gun (the receiver) already goes through this process, so this law is redundant.

Last edited by MrChubbs; 04-21-2018 at 10:13 AM.. Reason: Sentence structure.
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  #190  
Old 04-21-2018, 11:08 AM
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Maybe someone could find out how much it is costing both the anti-gun and the gun people to support these laws with their tax dollars while growing government worker rolls threaten to destroy the state. I mean what good is a useless law unless you have forty useless state workers screwing it up with their own definitions or worse yet putting you on hold while their boss goes into the bathroom to do some thinking on the porcelain throne? But anti-gun people should not be forgiven when they finally can't take it either due to increased taxes and no fewer deaths. They should be held accountable in chains to work off the public debt they made using other taxpayers money for their misguided thinking. They scream, want tax dollars to implement their hair brain ideas, and then do not want to be held accountable. Enough of rant.
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