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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 04-19-2018, 5:51 AM
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I’m sure you folks who’ve bought Krieger barrels have seen this “Break-In and Cleaning” sheet before. This came with my .375CT barrel.

FWIW:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Krieger Barrel Break-in Procedure.pdf (1.99 MB, 37 views)
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  #42  
Old 04-19-2018, 6:29 AM
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When, or perhaps I should say when a bronze brush is called for, my method is to use a very light spindle oil on the bronze brush instead of a solvent which negates the reaction between the bronze bristles and the copper fouling agents found in most solvents. Also, a light viscosity oil does a great job of softening the carbon fouling and reducing push through friction. After using the oiled bronze brush, swab the bore with solvent soaked patches to remove the crud. Works like magic. Before there were all these magic bore cleaners, serious shooters used to make their own concoctions for bore cleaning, most of which consisted of solvents mixed with oils mixed with..... you dont want to know.... which is also why copper fouling removers were separate from carbon fouling solvents and oils, as well they should be, but that is another story.
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  #43  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joefrank64k View Post
I’m sure you folks who’ve bought Krieger barrels have seen this “Break-In and Cleaning” sheet before. This came with my .375CT barrel.

FWIW:
Only 13 rounds required for a stainless barrel, not so bad.
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  #44  
Old 04-19-2018, 5:45 PM
1859sharps 1859sharps is offline
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The bigger question that nobody has asked would be what if you don't do a break-in and how does that affect accuracy?
apparently you mistakenly misspelled my name...its not spelled "nobody", it is spelled 1859Sharps...

this is exactly the issue I have been raising. Though I tend to use the phrase "the path not taken" vs what if you didn't break the barrel in.

as to someone having done the studies...I seriously doubt that there has been any. but if you think so, please provide the links, it would make for interesting reading.

The reason I doubt anyone has conducted such a study is because of what it would take. Cost and time before you even fire one round would be huge. To conduct such a study would be expensive and you would need probably 50 specially build rifles minimum. Why so many? Because I am not sure we can prove causation, so that leaves developing a compelling statistical correlation for either a break in process or no break in needed.

The list of variables to try and control is large. All the components that go into the rifle would have to be build as close as identical as possible. the rifles would have to be assembled as close as identical as possible. Ammunition would need to be assembled as close as identical as possible, rifles shot as close as identical as possible. weather, distances etc, etc.

This is why I don't think anyone has ever done a formal test. but maybe someone has since I last googled this topic...but given the cost and time involved I doubt it.

The bottom line...we are ALL making wild *** guesses. some are making their guess based on better information and better critical thinking than others, but still just a guess. no one knows for sure, not even the world class bench rest shooters. not if they haven't taken the time to address the variables, setup a like for like (or as close as is humanly possible) and generated enough data to show pattern.
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  #45  
Old 04-19-2018, 5:56 PM
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The testing was done years ago and posted on Benchrest Central.
I am not going to spend hours looking up links because you would find fault with anything posted by anyone including the link provided from Krieger Barrels above.
For the kinds of groups you are shooting I wouldn't break in a barrel or even clean one.
Cleaning barrels and breaking in barrels isn't for everyone.
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  #46  
Old 04-19-2018, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
The bottom line...we are ALL making wild *** guesses. some are making their guess based on better information and better critical thinking than others, but still just a guess. no one knows for sure, not even the world class bench rest shooters. not if they haven't taken the time to address the variables, setup a like for like (or as close as is humanly possible) and generated enough data to show pattern.
I don't doubt that it would be a huge undertaking to scientifically prove that a barrel break in process is or is not needed. Like you said, there are too many variables to control. Not one barrel is alike when it is produced and that is in my opinion, the number one reason right there why it would be hard to say if a barrel needs break in or it does not and whether that would result in better accuracy. It truly just depends on what you get.

I've had barrels that no matter what I did, the barrel did not perform as expected. Would a better barrel break in have helped?...doubt it. I've sent barrels back to the factory when I couldn't get some of them to shoot or when I borescoped it, the bore had evident tool marks on the lands and grooves. I've also had barrels that right from the get-go, just flat out shot what felt like from shot #1 out of the gun. No barrel break in needed. All barrels were chambered by the same gunsmith, same quality chamber job, same reamer, etc.

So, does it matter? To me, I would say no..only because I know how well my gunsmith chambers my barrels and I feel confident that neither myself nor my gunsmith is the low hanging fruit in the equation. If the barrel doesn't shoot with a known good load or exhibits excessive coppering, it is almost certainly going back to the barrel mfg. If the barrel doesn't shoot after even 50-60 rounds down the barrel, something is definitely up and I will not spend more time and effort to root cause it.

For other people, you need to decide what works for you.
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  #47  
Old 04-19-2018, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
apparently you mistakenly misspelled my name...its not spelled "nobody", it is spelled 1859Sharps...

this is exactly the issue I have been raising. Though I tend to use the phrase "the path not taken" vs what if you didn't break the barrel in.

as to someone having done the studies...I seriously doubt that there has been any. but if you think so, please provide the links, it would make for interesting reading.

The reason I doubt anyone has conducted such a study is because of what it would take. Cost and time before you even fire one round would be huge. To conduct such a study would be expensive and you would need probably 50 specially build rifles minimum. Why so many? Because I am not sure we can prove causation, so that leaves developing a compelling statistical correlation for either a break in process or no break in needed.

The list of variables to try and control is large. All the components that go into the rifle would have to be build as close as identical as possible. the rifles would have to be assembled as close as identical as possible. Ammunition would need to be assembled as close as identical as possible, rifles shot as close as identical as possible. weather, distances etc, etc.

This is why I don't think anyone has ever done a formal test. but maybe someone has since I last googled this topic...but given the cost and time involved I doubt it.

The bottom line...we are ALL making wild *** guesses. some are making their guess based on better information and better critical thinking than others, but still just a guess. no one knows for sure, not even the world class bench rest shooters. not if they haven't taken the time to address the variables, setup a like for like (or as close as is humanly possible) and generated enough data to show pattern.
Bench rest shooters are who is doing the testing and experimenting. Most people try to do what the winners do if they're not winning doing what they've been doing.
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  #48  
Old 04-20-2018, 5:11 AM
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99 and 44/100% of CalGuns shooters don't need to break in there barrels and even fewer own or use a borescope to see what is actually going on.
Don't waste those 10 rounds of surplus FMJ ammo because your groups won't magically shrink to 1/4 moa.
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  #49  
Old 04-20-2018, 6:31 AM
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first let me say i am no david tubbs or bob hoppe...though i do shoot with hoppe every now and then so im pretty sure that makes me a better shooter by association LOL...just kidding!! and i am not a bench shooter.

ive shot out at least 24 barrels in the last 10 years...not counting 2 factory barrels...id have to look back to get an exact number but this is close enough.

ive shot shilen,krieger,bartlein,hawkhill and criterion...of all the barrels ive shot ive had one hummer...it was a heavy varmint bartlein at 26" chambered in 260 rem...i sware you could close your eyes squeeze the trigger and every bullet would go in the same hole...consistent 10 round groups off a rear bag and a bipod that measured .290 edge to edge...my loaded necks were .295.

i will also say that cut rifle barrels are much better barrels from my experience with both cut and button barrels...cut barrels just seem to shoot better and more consistent.

as far as break in...ive done the shoot 1 and clean for X rounds then shoot 5 and clean for X rounds ect and ive also done no break in at all.

as far as cleaning...ive cleaned every time ive shot regardless of rounds fired and ive also NOT cleaned for long periods ...my last 6mm barrel i shot 800 rounds through it before i finally cleaned it and i had a 6.5 barrel i did not clean for 1000 rounds...it got cleaned twice its entire life.

now none of this is scientific by any means but this is what ive found works for me...

break in...i shoot one and clean for 3 rounds then shoot 10 clean and im done...i do this more to see how the barrel holes copper/fouls and also to burnish the barrel

cleaning...now this may just be in my mind but ive found that my barrels seem to shoot more consistent when cleaned after every time i shoot...my current hawkhill barrel takes 2 rounds to foul and i know this by groups and by the magneto speed...round 1 is always 50-60 fps slow round 2 is usually 20fps slow round 3 and all the following are at speed.

i have 1760 rounds on my current barrel and have cleaned every time ive been out but from this point on i will not clean this barrel unless i start to notice accuracy drop of...i am also going to run this barrel until it just dont shoot anymore and by dont shoot i mean when groups are 3/4+ inches at 100yds.

my thoughts are if you feel you need to do some elaborate break in then by all means do...personally i dont think its needed with high end barrels but i do think that shoot and clean for a couple of rounds is a good thing to smooth out the lands/throat before load development.

cleaning...like i say i think my barrels shoot better/more consistent/accurate when clean for about 100-150 rounds but again this may just be in my mind.

in the end you should do what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy because shooting...IMHO...is a huge mind game...if you doubt your equipment or something your doing to or with your equipment your going to have a lotta bad days at the range.

and FYI...i do own a bore scope...something i should not of bought because i can now see whats actually going on in there LOL.
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  #50  
Old 04-20-2018, 7:21 AM
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What some people call the break-in period I prefer to call Testing. from the time I first receive a barrel and begin work on it, I am looking at all the characteristics of that barrel inside and out through the use of a bore scope, and other techniques. When the rifle is built, I am testing from the first shot on, inspecting the brass, primer, chamber, muzzle, to assess what the rifle is doing, and in fact the first two or three shots may have nothing to do with where the bullet goes, it is simply to inspect and assess the components of the rifle and ammo. Sometimes during testing, cleaning is required to better assess what is going on in the tube, or to remove small particles etc. Other times little or no cleaning is required, and I can proceed directly to testing for accuracy, though almost always before accuracy testing I will swab the bore if for no other reason than to assess the effects of initial firing, and give the crown a wipe. Once accuracy testing begins, and taking into account all other variables which have been observed, the rifle will "speak" to you in regards to what it wants or needs. I am not sure why but some barrels do need to fire 30 or 40 rounds and some cleaning to settle down and from then on are pure tack drivers, while some are great from the initial accuracy test shot.

Something worth considering is that once a barrel leaves the barrel makers shop, they have no control over the smithing work done on it, yet their reputation as a maker of top barrels is inherently connected to the work of a smith, which they can only hope will be done with skill and care. This I believe is why they provide protocols for barrel break in, since they know that the shoot and clean routine will help erase some of the near micro issues which can be present during initial firing. Actually I could write a book about this subject, but this is enough for now.
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  #51  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:41 AM
1859sharps 1859sharps is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The testing was done years ago and posted on Benchrest Central.
I am not going to spend hours looking up links because you would find fault with anything posted by anyone including the link provided from Krieger Barrels above.
For the kinds of groups you are shooting I wouldn't break in a barrel or even clean one.
Cleaning barrels and breaking in barrels isn't for everyone.
no I would not find fault just because it wasn't provided by Krieger. frankly I would prefer an independent voice vs the manufacture. it just eliminates an additional point of concern.

But unless they did built a few identical rifles (or as close as possible) so they can use X number of the rifles to do one path, and Y number go the other route, all they have done is look at a bunch of samples of 1.

I will poke around benchrest central and see what I can find.
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  #52  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
I don't doubt that it would be a huge undertaking to scientifically prove that a barrel break in process is or is not needed. Like you said, there are too many variables to control. Not one barrel is alike when it is produced and that is in my opinion, the number one reason right there why it would be hard to say if a barrel needs break in or it does not and whether that would result in better accuracy. It truly just depends on what you get.
the huge undertaking would be the effort and money that would go into reducing manufacturing/assembly variances to a minimum.

While a 100 yard indoor range isn't common, I am sure there is one out there somewhere that would eliminate most environmental variables.

then of course there is the cost. you need to have enough rifles so that you can have a batch for break in and a batch for no break in. the break in would have to be identical on each rifle in that batch. then based on the statistical result you would have some leg to stand on that says which path people should take.
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  #53  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Bench rest shooters are who is doing the testing and experimenting. Most people try to do what the winners do if they're not winning doing what they've been doing.
If I am consistently winning. you then study what I am doing, figure out I am doing 10 things. then you do those 10 things and start winning. then someone else starts doing those 10 things...

suddenly you have a bunch of winners all doing the same 10 things....but which one or ones of those 10 things actually contributed to the winning?

how do you know if it was barrel breakin or not
how do you know if it was just the extra dry fire practice
how do you know if it was simply better machining from the gunsmith
how do you know if it wasn't simply the better primers

with something physical such as shooting, there are no one single factors that go into the win. It is the coming together of several that allows one to win. BUT along with those that are actually contributing to the win...there are additional things people do that are not, but believed to be contributing to the win. Thus when there is no data to support they get called "superstition" if it is believed to contribute, but there is no data to support that conclusion when you dive into it.

if you dive into most people's theories about barrel break in, they are chalk full of superstition.
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  #54  
Old 04-20-2018, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
If I am consistently winning. you then study what I am doing, figure out I am doing 10 things. then you do those 10 things and start winning. then someone else starts doing those 10 things...

suddenly you have a bunch of winners all doing the same 10 things....but which one or ones of those 10 things actually contributed to the winning?

how do you know if it was barrel breakin or not
how do you know if it was just the extra dry fire practice
how do you know if it was simply better machining from the gunsmith
how do you know if it wasn't simply the better primers

with something physical such as shooting, there are no one single factors that go into the win. It is the coming together of several that allows one to win. BUT along with those that are actually contributing to the win...there are additional things people do that are not, but believed to be contributing to the win. Thus when there is no data to support they get called "superstition" if it is believed to contribute, but there is no data to support that conclusion when you dive into it.

if you dive into most people's theories about barrel break in, they are chalk full of superstition.
If one of those 10 things the winners don't do is break in the barrel then everyone will be wanting to use that same make of barrel, but the point I was making is bench rest shooter are doing most of the accuracy experimenting that people copy, everything from reloading tech to breaking in barrels and that people don't copy losers, especially if they're accuracy competitors wanting to win.
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Old 04-20-2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my current hawkhill barrel takes 2 rounds to foul and i know this by groups and by the magneto speed...round 1 is always 50-60 fps slow round 2 is usually 20fps slow round 3 and all the following are at speed.
Longrange; I'm curious: does that (on your rifle) have to do with fouling after cleaning, or does it show up starting any cold bore session?
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  #56  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divingin View Post
Longrange; I'm curious: does that (on your rifle) have to do with fouling after cleaning, or does it show up starting any cold bore session?


Only with cold clean bore...last Tuesday I went out and shot 10 rounds off a new bench I built starting with a clean bore..I didn’t clean it after because it was only 10 rounds and as I said I won’t clean this barrel anymore until accuracy drops off.

Saturday I went out and cold bored a 8” gong at 1005yds.

I’ve had a couple of barrels that took up to 10 rounds to shoot after cleaning and every barrel I’ve owned has been slightly different.


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  #57  
Old 04-20-2018, 4:59 PM
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It is very common to lose 120 FPS with a squeaky clean barrel and even the cheapest of chronographs will show you that.

The guys advocating lengthy barrel break in periods are not using a borescope to see what is happening.
Breaking in a barrel doesn't make the barrel shoot smaller groups it makes the barrel shoot to its potential sooner by as much as 80 rounds.

1895
Most of the competitive Benchrest shooters have 10-20 barrels chambered up at one time.
The ammo will fit all the barrels the same not just close to the same.
David Tubb doesn't need to break in his barrels.
Robert Hoppe doesnt need to break in his F-Class barrels but his Benchrest barrels are a different story. He is probably in Oregon right now shooting his brother's bullets at the Nationals.
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  #58  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:09 PM
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Your posts and experience have been very helpful and insightful LynnJr.
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  #59  
Old 04-21-2018, 5:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieLivesMatter View Post
Your posts and experience have been very helpful and insightful LynnJr.
Those tiny scratches collect carbon and copper which affects accuracy. The sooner you can get them tamed the sooner your barrel will shoot to its full potential. Benchrest barrels only last 800 rounds so getting to the barrels full potential is important.
When you buy an unlapped barrel it takes 200-300 rounds before it will shoot to its full potential which reduces the total barrel life to 500-600 rounds.
If you don't clean the carbon and copper cover the scratches and it then takes 50-80 rounds to get the accuracy you invested all the money for.
It takes that long because you only fix the scratches with the first shot out of a clean bore.
Takes 15 minutes to do things correctly .
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