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  #41  
Old 11-11-2018, 4:09 PM
J-cat J-cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post

Is there anyone on this forums that understands why it is impossible to move the shoulder back on a case when sizing?
But it is possible to move the location of the shoulder on a case.
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  #42  
Old 11-12-2018, 9:57 AM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
But it is possible to move the location of the shoulder on a case.
It is even possible for us to move the location of the case shoulder datum three one-thousandths of an inch further back on the case (when measured from the case head) than it was located after the case was fired in and ejected from our rifle, but before being lubricated then inserted and removed from our sizing die by actuating the handle on our reloading press.

It's actually possible to use even more words than this to describe what's happening when we resize a case, but generally being clear and concise is more valuable than being boring, long-winded and precise. There's a reason people read about scientific breakthroughs in a 3 paragraph Yahoo News article instead of reading the scientific journals which originally published the work. "Bumping the shoulder" is sufficiently accurate for our purposes.

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  #43  
Old 11-12-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Oh no, someone just conjured the fguffey....


He has come!!!!!!!
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  #44  
Old 11-12-2018, 12:55 PM
Capt.Dunsel Capt.Dunsel is offline
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Originally Posted by kriller134 View Post
He has come!!!!!!!
I thought you had to say is name 3 times ?
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  #45  
Old 11-12-2018, 1:25 PM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Quote:
It's actually possible to use even more words than this to describe what's happening when we resize a case


Quote:
actually possible ?
Actually?

If a reloader could move the shoulder back and he was a member on this forum or another forum he would have raised his hand by now hollering "OH! OH! OH! Pick ne, pick me! I am the only reloaders that says it is impossible; no ***** footing, no tap dancing around, it is just plain and simple "It can not be done".

I am thinking we should start a new category of reloaders; we could call them 'BUMPERS", they have no clue as to what happens to the case when it is sized so they start with, "I BUMP etc.". I keep asking them, "HOW?" 'how is it possible to bump the shoulder back?'

Finding bumper reloaders in a crowd is easy; they have droopy shoulders and a receding hair line. I ask them a question and they answer by shrugging their shoulders, I explain the answer and the do a hand slap to their head. It does not have to be that way.

The reason why it is impossible to move the shoulder back on a case when sizing is in the die. The die makes it impossible because the full length sizing die has case body support.

I have special dies that do not have case body support, dies that do not have case body support are dangerous in the hands of a bumper. The reason is simple; to use a die that does not have case body support the reloader must know what he is doing. No amount of 'talking about it' will make one of those dies shape up and fly correctly.

F. Guffey
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  #46  
Old 11-12-2018, 1:32 PM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Forgive me for the 5 asterisk word between no and footing.

F. Guffey
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  #47  
Old 11-12-2018, 1:51 PM
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So how do you size a case when the shoulder length is too long to fit the chamber? Send the rifle back?
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  #48  
Old 11-12-2018, 2:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
So how do you size a case when the shoulder length is too long to fit the chamber? Send the rifle back?
Now we're getting somewhere.

Mr. Guffy, what do YOU call the SQUISHING of the shoulder DATUM down in a die with full body support, to fit a rifle's chamber when it is necessary to do so?

According to you , we all have our heads up our @$$es.
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  #49  
Old 11-13-2018, 1:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jwfire25 View Post
So I have a batch of 15 cases that won't size down enough to go into the rifle without resistance. The shell holder is touching the die. What would cause this? I have fired none resized brass that measures 1.626. And this problem brass after resizing measures 1.630. Its only been shot twice and I only used 41 grains of Varget.

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I have similar issues with some .223 cases like that. Even that I use small base sizing die, and resize all the way down, that particular case just won't load in AR. The case is just too thick and larger than normal. However, that case works fine in bolt action.
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  #50  
Old 11-14-2018, 6:45 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
So how do you size a case when the shoulder length is too long to fit the chamber? Send the rifle back?
AGAIN: My favorite cases are cases that are too long from the shoulder to the case head to allow the bolt to close; problem. manufacturers of components do not sell cases for reloaders that know what they are doing.

Quote:
According to you , we all have our heads up our @$$es.
Reloaders are conditions to fire form; fire forming requires little to no skill or knowledge of reloading. It is a matter of chambering a round and then pulling the trigger, after that it is a wa-la thing as in after pulling the trigger the reloaders become a fire former. Not me! I form first and then fire.

Any case that can be formed from a 30/06 case I form from a 30/06 cases. The exception would be forming 30/06 cases for long 30/06 chambers. I form 30/06 cases for long 30/06 chambers from 280 Remington cases. The questions should be: How can I miss? I Have .051" additional cases length from the shoulder to the case head to play with.

I do not know why reloaders insist on starting over everyday. They claim they can 'bump' the shoulder bsack .002"; now that is not one or two, it is everyone of them and they claim it is sooooo easy they have it worked down in a short phrase like, "all that is all you have to do".

"According to you , we all have our heads up our @$$es"

If I had the luxury of an opinion I would say that is something reloaders insist on doing. If a reloader has the skill to 'move' the shoulder back .002" why cant he move it .003" or .004" or .005" or .006", .007", .008", .009" or .010" etc. ? Again, I have a M1917 with a chamber that is .016" longer than a mini8mum length/full length sized case or .011" longer that a go-gage length chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. When forming cases for that chamber I adjust the die off the shell holder .014" when forming 280 Remington cases to 30/06 cases. The difference between the .016" and the .014" is the magic .002" clearance.

To prevent the reloader from starting over everyday it helps if he can verify a head space gage or the length of a case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

Quote:
According to you , we all have our heads up our @$$es.
My opinion? I believe the problem with reloaders has to do with their vision; that leads me to believe there is something wrong with their optic nerve.

F. Guffey
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  #51  
Old 11-14-2018, 9:31 AM
J-cat J-cat is offline
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You didn’t answer my question: how do you size a case whose shoulder length exceeds that of the chamber?
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  #52  
Old 11-14-2018, 9:41 AM
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You're literally a crazy person, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
If I had the luxury of an opinion I would say that is something reloaders insist on doing. If a reloader has the skill to 'move' the shoulder back .002" why cant he move it .003" or .004" or .005" or .006", .007", .008", .009" or .010" etc. ?
We can, but we can extend the life of our brass by sizing to less clearance than that. With a comparator and a brain we can measure our cases after firing then adjust our sizing die such that we size the brass to just barely fit in our chamber, instead of sizing all the way back to minimum dimensions such that the brass would fit in any production chamber. By minimizing how much we work the brass, we can maximize case life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
Again, I have a M1917 with a chamber that is .016" longer than a mini8mum length/full length sized case or .011" longer that a go-gage length chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. When forming cases for that chamber I adjust the die off the shell holder .014" when forming 280 Remington cases to 30/06 cases. The difference between the .016" and the .014" is the magic .002" clearance.

To prevent the reloader from starting over everyday it helps if he can verify a head space gage or the length of a case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.
So...you're bumping the shoulder back 0.002". You're being intentionally obtuse and using 73 words where 5 will do. Your shoulder datum WAS at +0.016", you resize it and now the shoulder datum IS at +0.014". The difference is -0.002" as you say. If we start at one distance and move to a distance that is shorter than the one we started at, we often say we moved backwards. So you are literally telling us that you moved, bumped, relocated, set back, pushed, or otherwise relocated the case shoulder datum back 0.002", something you have been saying for ages is impossible to do.

Call it what you will, the game is up, you've contradicted yourself and admitted to us all that you also bump the shoulders back on your brass instead of resizing to minimum dimensions every firing. Throw in as many and as you want.

Every time Ol' man Guff posts I suggest we quote his own contradictory post back to him.
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  #53  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:18 PM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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f we start at one distance and move to a distance that is shorter than the one we started at, we often say we moved backwards. So you are literally telling us that you moved, bumped, relocated, set back, pushed, or otherwise relocated the case shoulder datum back 0.002", something you have been saying for ages is impossible to do.
Quote:
So you are literally telling us that you moved, bumped, relocated, set back, pushed, or otherwise relocated the case shoulder datum back 0.002",
I find it impossible to move the shoulder back; I have never said I could not shorten the distance from the shoulder of the case to the case head. I have never assumed the shoulder moved back nor have I been able to bump anything with a non bump press. To bump I must have a cam over press and then there is the bump, to bump once the reloader must know what he is doing, all other must bump twice.

I have no ideal what is so difficult to understand about sizing a case. The shoulder I finish with is not the same shoulder I start with.

F. Guffey
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  #54  
Old 11-14-2018, 1:02 PM
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So what do you call what you do to the case? The shoulder that is not the same. A slope? A new shoulder? A brass easement?
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  #55  
Old 11-14-2018, 1:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
The shoulder I finish with is not the same shoulder I start with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
So what do you call what you do to the case?
The shoulder that is not the same.
A slope? A new shoulder? A brass easement?
He makes a new shoulder every time.
The old shoulder vanishes and a new one appears inside the sizing die.
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  #56  
Old 11-14-2018, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
So what do you call what you do to the case? The shoulder that is not the same. A slope? A new shoulder? A brass easement?


Itís called regeneration duhhhhh. Why is it so hard to understand that you canít bump a shoulder back? You grow it to your specified dimensions.
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  #57  
Old 11-14-2018, 2:48 PM
J-cat J-cat is offline
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I disagree. I can bump the shoulder back.
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  #58  
Old 11-14-2018, 6:21 PM
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So I finally made it back to the bench. And as many suggested, my shell holder was contacting the die before the case was enter into the die. Not after. So I tightened the die down and problem solved. But now I have to research this "shoulder bumping business" lol!

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  #59  
Old 11-14-2018, 7:25 PM
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Good to hear you figured out the issue.
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  #60  
Old 11-14-2018, 8:18 PM
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You did the impossible. Congratulations!
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  #61  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwfire25 View Post
But now I have to research this "shoulder bumping business"
Start here:
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...7&postcount=13

In this thread:
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=790014
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  #62  
Old 11-15-2018, 8:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jwfire25 View Post
But now I have to research this "shoulder bumping business" lol!
No, you don't. I think you already understand.

Guffey's rants are dependent upon a difference in terms. He says you can't move the shoulder back; what he's saying is that when you do, the metal that was originally forming shoulder flows to reform it (i.e. some of the body material creeps out onto the shoulder, and some of the shoulder creeps up into the neck.) Anyone can see that's obvious, but he couches his statement in so many words that it becomes less apparent. He's correct in one sense, but phrases it so confusingly that you can't really see what his point is.

Bottom line: run a case into a die far enough, and the case head to datum measurement becomes smaller. That's really all you need to understand. Nobody cares if the metal in the shoulder was the same as before.
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  #63  
Old 11-17-2018, 9:49 AM
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I will holler with you all you want Mr Guffey.

I can move the shoulder anywhere I want it and so can anyone else!!!!!!

What should bother you is that with all your knowledge you don't think it can be done?

They sell straight wall cases in the popular bolt diameters and reloaders can put the shoulder anywhere they want it.

Skip Otto and shade tree engineering both make dies allowing ANYONE to put the shoulder anywhere and at any diameter.

Please post that you don't possess the skills to do it rather than it can't be done as many seasoned wildcatters visit this forum.
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