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  #1  
Old 10-10-2018, 8:51 PM
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Default .308 Winchester vs. .308 Winchester Service Rifle

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between these two rounds? If they're loading the same case with the same powder and topping it with the same bullet, how can one minimum be a full grain off from the other? What am I missing?
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  #2  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:41 PM
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.308 Winchester I think is for bolt action and Service Rifle was for M1 Garand and / or a mag fed rifle. Could be wrong.
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Old 10-11-2018, 3:42 AM
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M1 Garand takes 30-06. M-14 takes 308. The M1 design beats up brass and the old military stuff was harder than commercial brass. I don't know if current commercial loads have harder brass or only lighter bullets and different burn rate powders to protect the op rod from damage.
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Old 10-11-2018, 5:09 AM
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Generally speaking, commercial SAAMI Spec ammo is loaded to higher pressures, and often with slower during powders to acheive those velocity at a lower pressure, than Military Spec ammo. Commercial ammo is loaded with bolt action rifles in mind.
Military ammo is loaded to provide a specific pressure at the gas port of a semi/full auto weapon for proper functioning without beating the rifle up. So, usually the military ammo will have a lower pressure rating than commercial ammo. More than likely the ammo designated .308 Winchester Service Rifle is manufactured for use in a semi auto rifle, which in the USA is the M14 style rifle. I have often read that if the rifle is marked that it is chambered in .308 Win, it can shoot both with no problems. The M14 style gas system is stronger than the Garands, and can handle higher pressures better.
FWIW, The American Rifleman magazine had a short article years ago in which they stated that they had found military .7.62NATO ammo with higher chamber pressures than commercial ammo. However, the article failed to mention what make ammo that was.

Last edited by Sailormilan2; 10-12-2018 at 5:43 AM..
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  #5  
Old 10-11-2018, 6:20 AM
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Quote:
What am I missing?


http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html

The link above has been available for years, wasted space but it has been there to ignore.

The chambers are not the same, if the chambers are not identical time and space become a factor. That little bit of information is wasted on reloading forums.

One more time: I have a chamber that is longer that a 30/06 chamber from 2" longer than a field reject length gage from the shoulder to the bolt face; that makes the chamber .002" longer than a field reject length gage or .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case.

The long chamber reduces the chamber pressure when a case is chambered with a short case body.

F. Guffey
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  #6  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:25 AM
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I question the following statement made in the article which says,

"US Army 7.62x51 chamber pressures:
Maximum: 50,000 psi
Proof pressure: 67,500 psi"

I believe the Maximum to be 50,000 CUP or 62,000 PSI from other material I have read. The NATO round measured in CUP is maximized at 50,000. I've seen much confusion over this in past years as the Winchester 308 maximum pressure is 62,000 PSI.

Does anyone else note the same difference?
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Old 10-11-2018, 2:07 PM
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I believe the Maximum to be 50,000 CUP or 62,000 PSI from other material I have read. The NATO round measured in CUP is maximized at 50,000. I've seen much confusion over this in past years as the Winchester 308 maximum pressure is 62,000 PSI.
So you find a quorum and the quorum decides the maximum pressure is 62,000 PSI MAX.. and then you find someone that is not quorum quality but he suggest the 7.62MMX51 was designed for the automatic rifle and the quorum thought you meant and or was talking about a bolt type rifle.

An old friend/smith called to ask me if I would cleanout his shop, I had already cleaned/separated/sorted his books and files out of his office at the University. That involved him telling what he was going to keep and what he was going to throwaway and I could have anything I wanted.

He handed me a rifle and said 308 W and I corrected him by saying the rifle was a 7.65MM53 BM Argentine 1891. He did not disagree but when I got the rifles home I checked all of the chambers. I called to tell him he was correct, the chamber was 308W with a M1917 barrel.

I had all kind of questions, I asked him what he used the rifle for. He said if someone was going to hunt with him and showed up without a rifle he got the loaner. The loaner was the 1891 Argentine Mauser; he said the rifle got a lot of use. It has nothing to do with complicated but I decided to get the rifle back to something the receiver could handle, and then it got complicated. I ask a few friend about helping find parts, they came up with a complete rifle and enough parts to build another rifle and then there were all of those shotgun barrels. Small ring shotgun barrels for small ring Mauser receivers.

The next time I make it to the range I will test this rifle, and then it comes down to 'what to do with the rifle' if I decide to apply the leaver policy as in leaver like I fonder.

F. Guffey

Last edited by fguffey; 10-11-2018 at 2:11 PM..
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Old 10-11-2018, 2:41 PM
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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. That was over my head I guess.
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Old 10-11-2018, 5:23 PM
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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. That was over my head I guess.
Welcome to fguffey world.
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Old 10-11-2018, 5:24 PM
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Service Rifle means M1A. You have to load for an M1A differently than a bolt gun otherwise you’ll be repairing it frequently. It’s not just less powder, it’s certain powders only and at a certain pressure.
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Old 10-12-2018, 5:12 AM
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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. That was over my head I guess.
I did not say this stuff is for everyone.

A shooter walked into a gun shop in N. Texas; he made it clear he was going to sue all involved. He had a 25/06 rifle that was locked up. It took the smith over two hours to open the bolt, he could not identify the case after the bolt was opened.

The smith asked the shooter to repeat the story; the rifle did not belong to him, he got the rifle by volunteering to zero the scoop. Before going to the range he stopped by his favorite guns sstore to purchases ammo. The smith asked to see the box of 19 unfired rounds and the receipt.

The shooter purchased 308W ammo for the 25/06 rifle.

I found nothing funny about the sequence of events but I did thing it was silly
that there were other shooters and smiths observing. They were betting on how long the bullet was when it left the barrel; I know, that is over your head also.

F. Guffey
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Old 10-12-2018, 5:35 AM
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Originally Posted by robert101 View Post
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. That was over my head I guess.

Quote:
Welcome to fguffey world.
We have reloaders that are infatuated with case volume, after measuring volume they run out of gas. Again, this stuff is not for everyone. I have cases that I can off set case volume by the way the case is destined.

And I wonder; reloaders claim they can move the shoulder of the case back and then they get sillier because they believe they can 'bump' the shoulder back, Back to 'I wonder' if they can move the shoulder back what happens to all of the brass below the shoulder? Does it just wad up? And wouldn't the case below the shoulder wadding up reduce volume?

And then there is that one about military cases being thicker, at best that is a half-truth. If the case is heavier it is thicker?

So I have an Argentine 1891 Mauser that 'in the beginning' had a 7.65 B.M chamber. But now it has a 308 W chamber. And I said things got complicated. My friend was over 90 years old, he was a genius, professor, smith and one of the most incredible welders and machinist. He built this rifle like no other rifle I have seen and or heard of. It works, I am not going to worry about 'over your head' because I said 'it got complicated' it is not for you.

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Old 10-12-2018, 9:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert101 View Post
I question the following statement made in the article which says,

"US Army 7.62x51 chamber pressures:
Maximum: 50,000 psi
Proof pressure: 67,500 psi"

I believe the Maximum to be 50,000 CUP or 62,000 PSI from other material I have read. The NATO round measured in CUP is maximized at 50,000. I've seen much confusion over this in past years as the Winchester 308 maximum pressure is 62,000 PSI.

Does anyone else note the same difference?
A modern 308 bolt gun will handle whatever the brass will handle. Remember, some brands of brass are softer than others, and even within a brand some variants are softer than others. I look to bolt lift and ejector marks, not a PSI number I have no way of measuring.

Of course that does not apply to the topic of this thread, the “service rifle”. Neither do ancient mausers. Service rifle data is not so much about max pressure, but more about the pressure of the gas operation system in the rifle. The barrel/bolt can handle the pressure the rifle will not explode. But the gas system may not be able to. It has nothing to do with some published lower PSI number but more with gas volume and duration. A bolt gun load using Varget at 62,000 PSI will produce too much gas for the system to handle. But a reduced Varget load will be just fine.

I read about modifications to the gas system that allow bolt gun loads to be used. I love this hobby.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
And I wonder; reloaders claim they can move the shoulder of the case back and then they get sillier because they believe they can 'bump' the shoulder back, Back to 'I wonder' if they can move the shoulder back what happens to all of the brass below the shoulder? Does it just wad up? And wouldn't the case below the shoulder wadding up reduce volume

F. Guffey


You have been told how to bump a shoulder. How many times do we have to explain this to you?

No, the brass does not wad up. It extrudes forward.
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:23 PM
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Can anyone tell me what the difference is between these two rounds? If they're loading the same case with the same powder and topping it with the same bullet, how can one minimum be a full grain off from the other? What am I missing?
If you are talking about a 308 service rifle, it's most likely an M14 variant.
M14 variants can not handle the pressures of a typical bolt rifle so the 308 service rifle loads might indeed be lower than the loads intended for current bolt rifles.
M14 variants really want to keep their gas port pressures down to the 7.62x51 levels.
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  #16  
Old 10-12-2018, 1:55 PM
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So... for a Springfield M1A, load on the lighter side?
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Old 10-12-2018, 2:05 PM
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Yes
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Old 10-12-2018, 3:11 PM
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And with the correct burning rate powder.
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Old 10-13-2018, 8:07 AM
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You insist you can move the shoulder back, you insist you can bump the shoulder back; I insist it is impossible to move and or bump the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support.

Quote:
You have been told how to bump a shoulder. How many times do we have to explain this to you?
I notice you omitted the word 'back' after shoulder, I will assume you now understand the shoulder does mot move back and I will assume you understand when bumping the shoulder you are not bumping it back. AND NOW! I am wondering how long it will take you to catch up: Bump started out long before you were born. In the old days it was possible to bump with a bump press. I said the bump press is a cam over press. The cam over press bumps once on the way up and once on the way down. Internet reloaders failed to do the research when the signed up for unsocial media. They thought 'bump; was a catchy/cute word.

ANYHOW; I have at least 12 BUMP PRESSES, everyone of my bump presses are cam over presses. I have presses that do not cam over; none of my non cam over presses cam over and because of that they do not bump.

And I have instructions for both presses.

F. Guffey

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Old 10-13-2018, 8:58 AM
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You keep on repeating the same nonsense.

I take my fired case. I measure the shoulder length. I adjust my sizing die to bump it .002”. I size the case. I measure the shoulder length again and it is .002” less.

Why can’t you understand?
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Old 10-13-2018, 1:52 PM
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Why can’t you understand?
Maybe we need to use his words. "Oh, I bumped back the shoulder .002" since I didn't have full case support. Perhaps there was some frame stretch involved with the press."
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Old 10-13-2018, 2:16 PM
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I moved the angled part of the case .002” in a southerly direction using my sizing die?
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Old 10-13-2018, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
You insist you can move the shoulder back, you insist you can bump the shoulder back; I insist it is impossible to move and or bump the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support.



I notice you omitted the word 'back' after shoulder, I will assume you now understand the shoulder does mot move back and I will assume you understand when bumping the shoulder you are not bumping it back. AND NOW! I am wondering how long it will take you to catch up: Bump started out long before you were born. In the old days it was possible to bump with a bump press. I said the bump press is a cam over press. The cam over press bumps once on the way up and once on the way down. Internet reloaders failed to do the research when the signed up for unsocial media. They thought 'bump; was a catchy/cute word.

ANYHOW; I have at least 12 BUMP PRESSES, everyone of my bump presses are cam over presses. I have presses that do not cam over; none of my non cam over presses cam over and because of that they do not bump.

And I have instructions for both presses.

F. Guffey

You must either be an incompetent reloader or the only reloader who can not bump the shoulder back.

I bump the shoulder back on 308 every time I reload. My AR-10 seem to have a deep chamber. If I do a regular resize I start getting case head separation after 2 to 3 reloads. Now I bump the shoulder back .003 to .004 and all is well. If I do a full resize the shoulder is bumped back .010. Yes I know my barrel/bolt has an issue I'm just too lazy to fix it, after I shoot up all the loaded ammo I have.....I'm going to fix it. The gun was purchased that way.
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Old 10-13-2018, 8:27 PM
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So... for a Springfield M1A, load on the lighter side?
No, you can pretty much use whatever in an M1A. M118LR match, FGMM, hunting ammo, M80 ball, reloads, I have shot it all. It’s not a garand, the M1A has a vent to regulate itself, less ammo sensitive than the M1.
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Old 10-14-2018, 5:37 AM
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You must either be an incompetent reloader or the only reloader who can not bump the shoulder back.
NO; I am the only reloader that understands it is impossible to move the shoulder back. And I am the only reloader that can move the shoulder back but it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

I am the only reloadr that has turned cases into accordions or I am the only reloader that has turned cases into a brass column with bellows. I know; you are so confused, I believe you should consider reloading/sizing cases is not for you.

F. Guffey
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Old 10-14-2018, 6:53 AM
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
NO; I am the only reloader that understands it is impossible to move the shoulder back. And I am the only reloader that can move the shoulder back but it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

I am the only reloadr that has turned cases into accordions or I am the only reloader that has turned cases into a brass column with bellows. I know; you are so confused, I believe you should consider reloading/sizing cases is not for you.

F. Guffey
Then explain what is happening when a sizing die produces a case with a shorter shoulder length after sizing.

No wait I know, you bumped the casehead forward!
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Old 10-14-2018, 7:50 AM
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Then explain what is happening when a sizing die produces a case with a shorter shoulder length after sizing.

No wait I know, you bumped the casehead forward!
Eventually you will figure it out. I have no ideal why it has taken your this long.
For years and years reloaders have insisted they have moved the shoulder back and for more years than that I have insisted it is impossible to move the shoulder back. I have always have insisted I can shorten the distance from the shoulder to the case head and I have insisted it is possible to prove the shoulder does not move back and I have insisted the shoulder I finish with is not the same shoulder I started with.

The responses from reloaders in the claims department have claimed they were 'so confused' and could not understand the shoulder I started with became part of the case body and case shoulder.

So I have explained, problem, I have been explaining to reloaders that have case head space and they do not understand the digital head space gage is a dial indicator stand or at best the tool is a comparator.

F. Guffey
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Old 10-14-2018, 8:11 AM
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I have figured it out long ago. What I haven’t figured out is why you’re purposefully avoiding answering the question. You think of yourself as a cat toying with a mouse, but in reality you’re just another narcissist.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
NO; I am the only reloader that understands it is impossible to move the shoulder back. And I am the only reloader that can move the shoulder back but it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

I am the only reloadr that has turned cases into accordions or I am the only reloader that has turned cases into a brass column with bellows. I know; you are so confused, I believe you should consider reloading/sizing cases is not for you.

F. Guffey
When you are the only one......maybe you are the one that doesn't understand..

But the second part of your response clearly shows a level of incompetence.

You just aren't special or smarter than the average reloader....bumping the shoulder back has been done for quite some time and many many many reloaders do it.

Here are some references:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...uch-is-enough/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...shoulder-bump/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...shoulder-bump/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=c9_QMh72AmI
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Old 10-14-2018, 1:02 PM
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The reloading Illuminati, as do we, believe when the round is fired the brass case conforms to the chamber. This flow of brass causes the case walls near the case head to thin out.

We approach the sizing problem from an external point of view. Hence our “bump” term. The Illuminati approaches the problem from a crossectional point of view where it is not possible to bump the shoulder back because there is no way to restore the thickness lost in the case walls near the case head.

The Illuminati believes the sizing die forms a new shoulder from the case walls and converts some of the old shoulder into the neck which grows in length. This extrusion continues over a number of reload cycles until the case walls get so thin the casehead separates from the case body.

The Illuminati believes we are worthless and treat us as such because we do not conform to their point of view, yet the fruit of our labor is just as good if not better than theirs.
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Old 10-14-2018, 3:01 PM
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The reloading Illuminati, as do we, believe when the round is fired the brass case conforms to the chamber. This flow of brass causes the case walls near the case head to thin out.

We approach the sizing problem from an external point of view. Hence our “bump” term. The Illuminati approaches the problem from a crossectional point of view where it is not possible to bump the shoulder back because there is no way to restore the thickness lost in the case walls near the case head.

The Illuminati believes the sizing die forms a new shoulder from the case walls and converts some of the old shoulder into the neck which grows in length. This extrusion continues over a number of reload cycles until the case walls get so thin the casehead separates from the case body.

The Illuminati believes we are worthless and treat us as such because we do not conform to their point of view, yet the fruit of our labor is just as good if not better than theirs.
Brilliant

The Illuminati is not very bright......
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Old 10-15-2018, 7:00 AM
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Quote:
The Illuminati believes the sizing die forms a new shoulder from the case walls and converts some of the old shoulder into the neck which grows in length. This extrusion continues over a number of reload cycles until the case walls get so thin the casehead separates from the case body.
J-Cat, for a moment I thought there was hope and then? Just guessing but there is a chance you are the only chance they have and that is scary if someone takes you seriously.

F. Guffey
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Old 10-15-2018, 8:07 AM
J-cat J-cat is offline
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as opposed to your word salad? Have you considered there is not one site on the web where people understand what you’re trying to say? You write nonsense. Your explanations do not help people solve their problems.

What’s scary is after all these years of constant reminders YOU don’t get it.
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Old 10-15-2018, 8:29 AM
fraz fraz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
Eventually you will figure it out. I have no ideal why it has taken your this long.
For years and years reloaders have insisted they have moved the shoulder back and for more years than that I have insisted it is impossible to move the shoulder back. I have always have insisted I can shorten the distance from the shoulder to the case head and I have insisted it is possible to prove the shoulder does not move back and I have insisted the shoulder I finish with is not the same shoulder I started with.

The responses from reloaders in the claims department have claimed they were 'so confused' and could not understand the shoulder I started with became part of the case body and case shoulder.

So I have explained, problem, I have been explaining to reloaders that have case head space and they do not understand the digital head space gage is a dial indicator stand or at best the tool is a comparator.

F. Guffey
HUGE

(actually he's kind of funny)

Last edited by fraz; 10-15-2018 at 8:30 AM.. Reason: add-on
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Old 10-15-2018, 6:28 PM
RestrictedColt RestrictedColt is offline
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I discovered the solution a long time ago; put him on 'ignore'. It's been so long that I'd forgotten why and was tempted to reverse that. Thank you to the people who quoted him so I could get a fresh taste and don't have to wonder if I'd made the right decision.

I think the 'service rifle' data is to mimic 7.62x51, but it's been a long time since I paid attention. If your book doesn't have 7.62x51 it increases the odds that I have the right answer. If it does have it then I'm wrong and it may just be a semi-auto spec or something else. I think 7.62 brass has less internal volume than .308 which may also be a factor they're looking at with charges. My only .308 reloading is for a re-chambered MAS-49 so I load a bit on the light side to kinda mimic the original cartridge's power.

Last edited by RestrictedColt; 10-15-2018 at 6:31 PM..
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  #36  
Old 10-15-2018, 7:53 PM
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Don the savage Don the savage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RestrictedColt View Post
I discovered the solution a long time ago; put him on 'ignore'. It's been so long that I'd forgotten why and was tempted to reverse that. Thank you to the people who quoted him so I could get a fresh taste and don't have to wonder if I'd made the right decision.

I think the 'service rifle' data is to mimic 7.62x51, but it's been a long time since I paid attention. If your book doesn't have 7.62x51 it increases the odds that I have the right answer. If it does have it then I'm wrong and it may just be a semi-auto spec or something else. I think 7.62 brass has less internal volume than .308 which may also be a factor they're looking at with charges. My only .308 reloading is for a re-chambered MAS-49 so I load a bit on the light side to kinda mimic the original cartridge's power.
Ignore the Guffey? Preposterous. He is a genius among prols. If you dont believe me just ask him.
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Of course they are in free territory where they can pick up ammunition at the local 5 and dime without going through a criminal background check. All we get is legalized pot.
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Old 10-15-2018, 8:29 PM
RestrictedColt RestrictedColt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don the savage View Post
Ignore the Guffey? Preposterous. He is a genius among prols. If you dont believe me just ask him.
I know he is, it's undeniable. Please understand that I'm in now way doubting it and not trying to dissuade anyone from hanging from every morsel of his unintelligible nuggets of knowledge, but here's my problem. I don't make much money and I have a lot invested in reloads and reloading. I've learned that he's the only person on the planet that can reload properly which is scary as flock....of rabid hungry seagulls with diarrhea. I can't afford to dump all my stuff so as long as I keep his reminders out of my mind I can happily shoot my sub-par junk until one of them blows me up at which point it'll no longer matter. With supreme luck I might see another sub 1/2 MOA group from my cheapo homemade AR before I die, but since it had to be a beginner's luck thing all 5 times it'll probably never happen again. Please keep me in your prayers.
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Old 10-17-2018, 5:59 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Quote:
it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support
.

RestrictedColt, What is it about the above quote you do not understand? I can not move the shoulder back with a full length sizing die, If I could I would explain how it is possible.

I can not move the shoulder of the case back by bumping, I insist I have bump presses, my bump presses bump because they are cam over presses. AGAIN: I have three Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chuckers cam over because they are not bump presses. MEANING: My Rock Chucklers are not cam over presses, they are non-cam over presses.

F. Guffey
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Old 10-17-2018, 6:06 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Forgive: I have 12 Herter presses, that would be 6 different models; all of my Herter presses cam over. The cam over press is also called 'the bump press' because it bumps on the way up and again on the way down.

What does that mean?

F. Guffey
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