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  #1  
Old 02-17-2014, 3:13 PM
ElHefeDeBombaros ElHefeDeBombaros is offline
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Default Taurus Judge/S&W Governor in CA?

O.K., O.K., I know. CA considers them "short barreled shotguns" and thus illegal. However...

Today, a customer called the gun store I work in saying he had a conversation with a local firearms attorney who was saying that there was an operation of law that can be used to own them in CA. We're not talking about a Federal Tax Stamp, it's an operation of CA law.

Anyone know what he might be referring to? It's a new one on me. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 02-17-2014, 3:16 PM
ChuckDizzle ChuckDizzle is offline
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Are they really considered shot-guns? They fire normal pistol cartridges, and plenty of other pistols can fire various types of shot shells.
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  #3  
Old 02-17-2014, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ChuckDizzle View Post
Are they really considered shot-guns? They fire normal pistol cartridges, and plenty of other pistols can fire various types of shot shells.
At the moment, yes, they are. Because they can fire an actual shotgun shell (.410). And until someone can change that BS definition, anyone that wants one in CA is SOL.

Pistol caliber shot shells are not shotgun shells by definition...at least for now. That's why they're legal.

As for the OP's question...tagged.

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Last edited by six seven tango; 02-17-2014 at 3:33 PM.. Reason: clarification
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  #4  
Old 02-17-2014, 3:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElHefeDeBombaros View Post
O.K., O.K., I know. CA considers them "short barreled shotguns" and thus illegal. However...

Today, a customer called the gun store I work in saying he had a conversation with a local firearms attorney who was saying that there was an operation of law that can be used to own them in CA. We're not talking about a Federal Tax Stamp, it's an operation of CA law.

Anyone know what he might be referring to? It's a new one on me. Thanks.
never heard of it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckDizzle View Post
Are they really considered shot-guns? They fire normal pistol cartridges, and plenty of other pistols can fire various types of shot shells.
no, they aren't considered shotguns, but are considered Short Barreled Shotguns.the requirement is fixed shotgun shell. a .410 shell is a shotgun shell, a 9mm shotshell is not.
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  #5  
Old 02-17-2014, 3:43 PM
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PUT A FWD GRIP ON IT. AOW & reg as AOW
then you can remove fed grip
it's been posted before
think it's $5 to reg as AOW???????
miht need a trust too???????
pretty sure guy above me knows ^^^^^^^
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  #6  
Old 02-17-2014, 9:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
PUT A FWD GRIP ON IT. AOW & reg as AOW
then you can remove fed grip
it's been posted before
think it's $5 to reg as AOW???????
miht need a trust too???????
pretty sure guy above me knows ^^^^^^^
FYI.
Current wait time for BATFE to process a Form 1 or Form 4 is 9 months.
Form 1 (make) on an AOW is $200. Form 4 (transfer) on an AOW is $5.
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  #7  
Old 02-17-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
FYI.
Current wait time for BATFE to process a Form 1 or Form 4 is 9 months.
Form 1 (make) on an AOW is $200. Form 4 (transfer) on an AOW is $5.
Thanks for the info, didn't know.

kinda stupid now to think that anyone (in the rest of america) would "make" an AOW (from an 870 or 500). For $200 smackeroos in taxes, i would rather get an equivilant SBS.
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  #8  
Old 02-17-2014, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vertigofirearms View Post
Thanks for the info, didn't know.

kinda stupid now to think that anyone (in the rest of america) would "make" an AOW (from an 870 or 500). For $200 smackeroos in taxes, i would rather get an equivilant SBS.
Some States restrict the ownership of SBR/SBS, but allow the ownership of AOW.
Which is one of the reasons why AOWs are popular.

Since, it's just $5 to transfer an AOW.
You can buy an existing AOW & have it transferred (Form 4 = $5) to you or pay ($25-100) a 07-FFL/02-SOT to make (Form 5 = free) your Title 1 Other (factory crusier style 870/500) into an AOW & then have it transferred (Form 4 = $5) back to you.
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2014, 7:10 AM
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't there also been some mention that not only would the judge/governor be considered a short barreled shotgun but also a shotgun with a relolving cylinder?

It was my understanding this was why a lot of people were going after the rifled Rossi Circuit Judge as it came with a 18.5" barrel, and a stock.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2014, 7:12 AM
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Originally Posted by omgwtfbbq View Post
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't there also been some mention that not only would the judge/governor be considered a short barreled shotgun but also a shotgun with a relolving cylinder?
.
IMO, No.

even though it meets CA's definition of an SBS, it does not meet the definition of a shotgun (designed to be fired from the shoulder with a smoothbore). since it isn't a shotgun, it can't be a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder" and can't be an AW.
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  #11  
Old 02-18-2014, 7:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
IMO, No.

even though it meets CA's definition of an SBS, it does not meet the definition of a shotgun (designed to be fired from the shoulder with a smoothbore). since it isn't a shotgun, it can't be a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder" and can't be an AW.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rifling of the bore also has something to do with it.

After reading this it apparently isn't by federal law, but by California law it is.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/wp-content...California.pdf
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  #12  
Old 02-18-2014, 7:31 AM
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California has them categorized as DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE. That is the reason it is illegal, not because of the other things being mentioned. I almost convinced myself to get a Governor when I moved, but realized that .45 Colt is not even that great a round. I'd rather get a .44 or even .357 Magnum.
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  #13  
Old 02-18-2014, 9:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Swagman00 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rifling of the bore also has something to do with it.

After reading this it apparently isn't by federal law, but by California law it is.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/wp-content...California.pdf
The rifling question is what I had informed my original post on. It was my understanding, and it appears others agree, that guns like the Circuit judge would be considered shotguns with revolving cylinders IF they are smoothbore.


The Rossi Circuit Judge models capable of firing shotgun shells are legal because of having a rifled barrel, making them a rifle with a revolving cylinder, not a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

I was getting confused by the rifling issue when really it doesn't matter, because the judge and governor are still considered SBSs.
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  #14  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:06 AM
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Does anyone know of any Californian who has gone the AOW/FWD Grip route to legally obtain a Judge here? I might be interested in doing this since I already have a trust, an AOW and a dealer who might be willing, just want to know if anyone has actually done it here. I wouldn't mind waiting 9 months. Also, what about the ATF E-File system, would that possibly be a way to speed up the process to 2-4 months?
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  #15  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtfbbq View Post
The rifling question is what I had informed my original post on. It was my understanding, and it appears others agree, that guns like the Circuit judge would be considered shotguns with revolving cylinders IF they are smoothbore.


The Rossi Circuit Judge models capable of firing shotgun shells are legal because of having a rifled barrel, making them a rifle with a revolving cylinder, not a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

I was getting confused by the rifling issue when really it doesn't matter, because the judge and governor are still considered SBSs.
Under CA laws, in order to be considered a shotgun, the firearm needs a smoothbore barrel.
Last year, the CA legislature passed a bill that would have changed the law to include rifled barrels, but Governor Brown veto'd that bill.

Under CA laws, a SBS can have both a smoothbore barrel and a rifled barrel. In addition, a firearm that is not classified as a shotgun can be classified as a SBS.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Capybara View Post
Does anyone know of any Californian who has gone the AOW/FWD Grip route to legally obtain a Judge here? I might be interested in doing this since I already have a trust, an AOW and a dealer who might be willing, just want to know if anyone has actually done it here. I wouldn't mind waiting 9 months. Also, what about the ATF E-File system, would that possibly be a way to speed up the process to 2-4 months?
I believe a few years back, OC Armory had a few Taurus Judge AOWs in stock at their store.
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  #17  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:42 AM
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You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Look at the Rossi Circuit Judge. Legal in California. The Governor and Judge are, however, destructive devices, in a different category than these barrel issues you're discussing.
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  #18  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capybara View Post
Does anyone know of any Californian who has gone the AOW/FWD Grip route to legally obtain a Judge here? I might be interested in doing this since I already have a trust, an AOW and a dealer who might be willing, just want to know if anyone has actually done it here. I wouldn't mind waiting 9 months. Also, what about the ATF E-File system, would that possibly be a way to speed up the process to 2-4 months?
AFAIK, OCarmory did offer VFG'ed Judges. Me, I had zero want for a Judge, AOW or not, so I never looked into it other than determining the 3 easiest ways to get a Judge AOW'ed. Now, if Taurus figured out a way to get the 28ga Judge in the US, I would be interested in one of those


The trick is that it needs to be AOW'ed by an 07/02 outside of CA on a Form 2 and then transferred to the CA SOT on a Form 3 who then transfers it to you a Form 4. Because otherwise it is an SBS in CA before it becomes an AOW. now, it may be possible to have the cylinder removed from the Judge and then have the Judge sent to an in-state 07/02 who would AOW it and re-install the cylinder.

and yes, having the forms done as eForms would definitely shorten the time the process takes.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Artema View Post
You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Look at the Rossi Circuit Judge. Legal in California. The Governor and Judge are, however, destructive devices, in a different category than these barrel issues you're discussing.
incorrect. a Judge in CA may be many things (SBS, unconventional pistol) but it is not a DD. They have bores <.60" so they are not CA-defined DDs.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 02-18-2014 at 10:48 AM..
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  #19  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:45 AM
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I remember a company that did the convertion and stamp I think there name was ten percent arms or something like that. If it has been mentioned b4 oh well:-)

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Old 02-18-2014, 10:48 AM
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I remember a company that did the convertion and stamp I think there name was ten percent arms or something like that. If it has been mentioned b4 oh well:-)

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk
Wes at 10% is an NFA dealer, not a manufacturer, IIRC. so he wouldn't be doing the conversions into an AOW, but he might have been selling them that were already converted by an NFA manufacturer.
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