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Magazines: all the answers you need UPDATED April 2019
The wiki has a long article: Large-capacity magazine restrictions and there is a long thread here at Calguns but for those people who find themselves unable to click on a link:
Legal Considerations If you think your legal question has not been answered, follow the links at the top of this post and read the articles, then re-read items (2) and (3) above several times. Other questions are addressed below. * Note: it is not a part of the "large-capacity magazine" law, but part of the 'assault weapon' law that says a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle with a fixed magazine that holds more than 10 rounds is an 'assault weapon'. (This is not a magazine restriction, this is an assault weapon restriction, that happens to include magazine capacity.) That means that
Sept 8, 2011 ETA Political and Meta-legal items
The 'nuisance' language in the renumbered Penal Code: this appears to be worrisome; please see this later post in this thread for a longer discussion. ETA - The Penal Code was renumbered effective Jan 1 2012 - for magazines see http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...r=5.&article=1., PC 32310 and following.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 04-12-2019 at 10:21 AM.. |
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can I put +2 extensions on my legally owned/ obtained high cap glock mags or would this be considered construction of high cap mags?
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No, but you can add capacity to your existing legally owned large-capacity magazines.
Once over 10 rounds, there's no legal difference. (I don't own any extensions, since I hear they have an annoying feature - they fall off sometimes.) ======== Aug 7, 2014 Addendum Remembering that we do not know for certain, magazine 'extensions' are designed to add capacity to an existing magazine, so they are a really good candidate to qualify for a 'large capacity magazine conversion kit'. If that were to be so - and I think the CYA position should be that it is - such extensions would be illegal to buy, sell or import in 2014.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 08-07-2014 at 12:07 PM.. |
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Nazrico, welcome and interesting! Looks like the question was answered in that thread you posted.
I have another question: A buddy of mine, an international rimfire steel competitor, was wondering if, as a non-California resident, bringing his greater-than-ten-rounds rimfire magazines to a rimfire match in California and then leaving would not constitute "importing," on the following grounds: Quote:
What do you say, winning argument or pipe dream?
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Honorary Board Member, the California Gun Rights Foundation Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. Yes I'm an attorney. No, this post does not contain legal advice or opinion. Last edited by Davidwhitewolf; 08-16-2011 at 4:57 PM.. Reason: Added a missing parenthesis, to avoid grammar fits |
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There is simply no exception in the law for competitors.
That would expose the weakness of the law as a practical measure; can't have that.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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Just a procedural note:
This thread hopes to answer the big FAQs about magazines (and I confess myself bemused at the questions that get posted in it!). Questions and answers are 'in scope' but long conversations deserve their own threads.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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Instructions for Rivit & Epoxy Glock Mag
FOUND A TUTORIAL TO RIVET MAGS
I'm glad to say that's right here on Calguns in the Gunsmithing Forum. Last edited by Librarian; 12-01-2012 at 7:59 PM.. |
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Federal law does not currently address magazines. Therefore, TSA has no business concerning itself with magazines transported by travelers.
This thread is about California law only. That said, TSA is not known for knowing its own regulations, or its limitations.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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No, your eyes are not deceiving you - a couple hundred posts are gone.
Those were principally discussing the formerly legal behaviors with parts kits; since 2014, possession and continued use to repair existing LCMs (or other magazines), or to convert to 10-round mags, is about all that remains.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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What defines a parts kit? If I buy a polish ak magazine body, and have it shipped to my home in california with the floor plate, follower, and spring in a different package, would this still be considered a kit? Note that I am not trying to build a new magazine, rather repair an old ak mag that has a dent in the body, and will not allow the follower to pass said dent.
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=904677 I certainly would not do what you are proposing, but I don't like jail.
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My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. |
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Exactly.
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My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance. |
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Fixed the wiki - now says
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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What would be the legality of ordering normal capacity magazines from an online seller, having them shipped directly to an out-of-state location to be blocked, then shipping/bringing them back to Kalifornia? Would this be legal? And if so, does anyone know of a shop or business that would provide a service like this?
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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So here is my question; and you will have to forgive what is perhaps my ignorance (I am new to all of this), but I, having read all of the posts in this thread up until this point, including the first post and the wiki, have not seen asked or answered the following question:
Assuming that sometime at least 3 years ago (given the 3 year statute of limitations), perhaps 5 years or maybe 10 years ago but after 2000 (which would make them legal so long as they were possessed in California at the time), an individual imported, manufactured, received, purchased, etc., either intentionally or unintentionally, a "large-capacity magazine", and given that- Quote:
Or perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding how this works..? Please don't misconsrue this question to be encouraging or condoning the breaking of the law in any way, but take it for what it is, an attempt to more perfectly understand a grievously imperfect law. Last edited by SNBI; 06-05-2014 at 3:29 PM.. |
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Quick question, but first a scenario. I have a Glock 20 that I bought in '93 came with 2 15 rnd mags. I know I can legally own them and use them to this day. I even purchased 5 more mags, albeit at black market prices, after 1994 but before 2000.
I'm considering buying a Glock 29. It will accept G20 mags. Would it be legal to use the 15 round mags in it if I so chose? I don't see any practical reason for it, just curious. |
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There is no PC that I'm aware of that would prohibit this. The mags themselves are regulated not the guns you use them in (assuming it doesn't have a BB). Matter of fact Glock mags are only stamped with caliber and capacity not model number, and we're originally designed to be interchangeable with different models anyways. I don't see how this would be any different then using grandfathered AR mags in a featureless different brand or non AR rifle Sig, IMI, etc...
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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him?" Thomas Jefferson NRA Life Member CRPA Life Member |
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Bodies, perhaps? We don't know what is the minimum to satisfy the definition of an illegal 'conversion kit'.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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Parts that are the same for 10s, 15s, 20s, 30s, etc. should be fine. Parts specific to >10 I agree are a grey area. I personally would bring in complete 10/30s or nothing and even then, discretion and silence.
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Section 32311. "(b) For purposes of this section, a "large capacity magazine conversion kit" is a device or combination of parts of a fully functioning large-capacity magazine, including, but not limited to, the body spring, follower, and floor plate or end plate, capable of converting an ammunition feeding device into a large-capacity magazine." Although poorly stated, a +10 magazine body is "capable of converting an ammunition feeding device into a large-capacity magazine." Importing one could be easily defined by the DOJ/AG/DA as manufacturing a large capacity magazine where none previously existed prior to January 1, 2000. See section 32310 - the original large capacity mag ban law: "(b) For purposes of this section, "manufacturing" includes both fabricating a magazine and assembling a magazine from a combination of parts, including, but not limited to, the body, spring, follower, and floor plate or end plate, to be a fully functioning large-capacity magazine." There is plenty of room for interpretation in both Sections 32310 and 32311 for the state to make a case. Importing an unblocked "large capacity" magazine body could open up a legal can of worms.
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FYI- a 10/30 is a 30 round magazine that has been limited to only holding 10 rounds!
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Could dig out an answer, so I'll ask. Sorry if dupe.
Could you send a 10+ magazine to your CA FFL who can LEGALLY receive it, and send him a magazine block that will block down to 10 rounds and have him create a 10 round magazine for you? I think the sticky question is that if YOU bought the magazine and YOU are no the FFL, even if the magazine will ONLY be received LEGALLY by the licensed FFL ... are you the "importer" since you caused the magazine to be imported into CA? At no time would any non-licensed-to-receive-a-high-capacity-magazine person have the magazine. So straight from out of state to a legally licensed FFL (licensed to receive high caps), then a 10 rounder from him to you?
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================== Remember to dial 1 before 911. Forget about stopping power. If you can't hit it, you can't stop it. There. Are. Four. Lights! |
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I think you could buy mag blocks ahead of time, then travel to AZ or NV buy 30 rounders and convert them prior to returning to CA. but only if you were going to that other state for another reason, otherwise your better off ordering 10/30's online! ...and I doubt you'd save any significant amount of cash!
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There is a hi-cap permit separate from the CA-FFL that a dealer has to have. There are still in state dealers doing in house conversions, and there are still out of state dealers shipping 10/30's.
Other option as mentioned is pre-order limiters, and add an errand to your next vacation out of state. The nuances are tedious, but I'd argue that anything from permanently modifying (ie, glue that is as strong or stronger than the material, or riveting), to part swapping (swap floor plate for integrated limiter and ditch the floor plates so that you are not returning with anything that could be assembled into a >10 round magazine so neither kit nor permanent modification clauses are triggered) covers the letter of the law, and your silence avoids "imperial entanglements" to begin with.
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Hmmmm... I didn't know that! But I've only seen prepackaged 10/30's for sale locally, and see them online all the time.
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I qualified with my 15 round Glock 22 I purchased here legally in 1994. And is now one of the three on my CCW.
As far as the exact purchase date for the law, I am not sure? Was it 1996? 1999? 2001? That would be helpfull to post if someone here knows the actual date. There were so many laws thrown around back then it is easy to get it wrong. Some are still valid while others may not be. |
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This thread is primarily concerned with State laws.
However, in 2014, there are two local laws worth knowing about. Sunnyvale and San Francisco each have their own large-capacity magazine ban. Sunnyvale Municipal Code section 9.44.050 bans the possession and use of common, standard-capacity “ammunition feeding devices” or “magazines” capable of holding more than ten rounds. The Ordinance took effect on December 6, 2013, ten (10) days after the Sunnyvale City Council declared the vote. The ordinance is being challenged; see the thread on Fyock v Sunnyvale, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=867249 On April 7, 2014, the San Francisco Ordinance took effect. It, too, bans possession of large-capacity magazines. This ordinance, too, is being challenged (SFVPOA v. SAN FRANCISCO) ; see the thread http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=917138 Until a resolution in favor of the plaintiffs may be secured, carry of large-capacity magazines in each of San Francisco and Sunnyvale is illegal. Please direct questions to the threads linked.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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Effective July 1, 2017, 'large-capacity magazines' are illegal
New law passed in 2016 changes the rules:
SB 1446 Quote:
Quote:
That was in several of the prior posts, but not as an explicit statement. No, it's still the case that no one really knows what 'permanent' might mean.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 05-18-2017 at 11:31 PM.. |
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First post updated: City of LA got rid of the city's magazine ban effective 1 July 2017.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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16 more posts deleted; almost all relied on pre-2017 law on possession for accuracy - they were fine when posted, but out of date in 2018.
And maybe I'll get to revise this yet again to restore 'possession' as legal, pace the nuisance language.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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Update after 'magazine week' - yes, it's legal to use those mags
It has always been legal to use large-capacity magazines, and it remains legal.
The magazine 'possession' language in the Penal Code has been stayed by Judge Benitez - that means it cannot be enforced while that order remains in effect (and see the Duncan thread in CA 2A Litigation for news about that.) There are a few limitations, however. There is still a small likelihood of seizure as a nuisance; if that happens, please contact Michel & Associates, helpdesk@michellawyers.com IF you modified your rifle to the new 'fixed magazine' configuration - that is, now you must open the action to change mags - you MUST NOT use an LCM in those rifles. The 'assault weapon' law is not affected, and using a LCM in a fixed-mag rifle creates an 'assault weapon' - that's a FELONY. Yes, if you registered your rifles as 'assault weapons' - RAW - you may use LCMs. Yes, if you still have 'featureless' rifles, you may still use LCMs - that seems to have been the principal point of 'featureless' guns. Yes, you may legally take your LCMs out to a range; some ranges may have their own rules, so call ahead. Yes, you may legally use LCMs in your CCW guns; your issuing agency may have an opinion, so follow their rules. Yes, you may use LCMs in self-defense. Yes, you may lend your LCMs to another person, if you stay with them. Think 'range trip'; PC 32415 Yes, if you had magazine 'kits', it was legal to assemble them into magazines during the week. It's not legal now - don't do it. Yes, if you have magazine 'extension' parts, it is legal to assemble them to LCMs. It is NOT legal to assemble them to 10-round or fewer mags - that would be 'manufacturing'; it is also not legal - and was not legal during the week - to get a kit or an extension device - the law on 'large capacity magazine conversion kits' is not affected by this lawsuit. NO, you cannot take your newly acquired LCMs out of state to use, and then bring them back to CA. There used to be an exception to the the 32310 'importing' prohibition for legally-owned-in-CA pre-2000 mags; Prop 63 deleted that. Now, bringing the LCMs into CA is simple 'importing', and that is forbidden.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 04-12-2019 at 2:33 PM.. |
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See also this from the CRPA: https://crpa.org/news/blogs/crpa-ale...-ordered-stay/
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 04-08-2019 at 8:17 PM.. |
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December of 2021
This keeps appearing - someone thinks 'standard magazines' is a synonym for CA's legal definition of 'large-capacity magazines' - Quote:
Standard capacity is weapon-dependent. For all the 1911 type handguns, 'standard capacity' is SEVEN. If you care to look, I'm sure you can come up with a dozen or so whose standard capacity mags are less than 10 rounds. No doubt most people will understand what you mean in a casual conversation; use whatever term you like there. But in a discussion of California law, the term is 'large-capacity magazine', as defined in PC 16740, and to use other terms really does create confusion. Remember, we lost that terminology battle in 2000.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 12-06-2021 at 6:54 PM.. |
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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