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  #1  
Old 06-07-2018, 12:17 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
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Default Tolerating Intolerance (or Not)

Here's a question for the group: Should the intolerant be tolerated? I'll include all Neo Nazis, Fundamentalists of all stripes (Muslim, Christian, etc.), Fascists, etc. or anybody who takes a hard-line stance that their way is the only way for all of us and is actively working to enact that vision here in America.

Logically, tolerance for all is tolerance for all. So even the intolerant should be tolerated. However, I came across the idea that intolerance has the potential for creating a minority-rule situation, where the majority can disagree with the intolerant and yet still be forced to bend to their will. A small example can be something like Kosher food where we all eat Kosher food even though only a tiny minority of people in the US are Orthodox Jew. Gentiles can eat Kosher but Orthodox Jews MUST eat Kosher. So some food makers make everything Kosher for simplicity. It's harmless so there's no point in complaining about it -- there's nothing to really complain about at all.

More dangerously, minority hard-liner parties can end up taking over the ruling class in any country as their intolerance REQUIRES others to bend to their will to keep them included. Somebody once told me that this was partly how the Nazi party came to power -- not through majority rule but through minority rule. My WW2 history is pretty fuzzy, though so I'm open to correction on this detail. But the point still holds -- an intolerant minority can end up controlling the majority.

So it has me thinking about politics and religion in America and how many of you view tolerance and intolerance. What does your faith tradition teach for you as far as how others are treated if they are intolerant of you or of other groups? What is your responsibility to others who are different from you in both politics and religion?

Since I asked the question, I'll put my own thoughts out there. As a man from Okie/redneck roots, I ascribe to a strong "don't tread on me" ethic. I have a very high degree of tolerance for others. Whatever you believe that helps get you through your day is fine with me. How you live your life or who you pray to is none of my business. But the intolerance of others is a serious trigger for me. It puts all my protective instincts on red alert. I can disagree with a racist & just blame it on ignorance. But as soon as they want to impose that racism on the group (via law or by cajoling others into putting their ideas into practice), I get really upset. I have no problem with Christianity, for example. But as soon as somebody wants to impose Christianity on me somehow, I bristle. It would be the same for Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus or even Wiccans. I'm only tolerant as long as you are, too. Admittedly, this is not a "logically consistent" view. But I hold it nevertheless.

So what is your view on tolerance? What does your faith tradition teach? What do you teach your kids or grand kids (if you have any)?
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Old 06-07-2018, 12:29 PM
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I think your approach to tolerance is a good one. If someone wants to believe a certain way, that's fine. But as soon as that someone wants to impose their beliefs on others, that's when I, too, bristle.
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Old 06-07-2018, 12:35 PM
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My Okie redneck Christian Mom taught me not to suffer fools gladly,
I'll leave it at that.
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Old 06-07-2018, 3:28 PM
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I don't like laws. I would rather convert people than force them. That said, there may need to be laws to keep those who would force others from forcing others.
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Old 06-08-2018, 2:11 PM
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Here's the Christian view directly from God's Word. Bottom line: "As far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." (Romans 12:18). Paul goes on to say, let God take care of judgment (which is what Christ did during His first coming to earth).

1 Peter 3:8-12 is the summary to the whole teaching section on how Christians are to handle a world of persecution. They persecute, we are harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit...giving a blessing instead. Why? I know an unfathomable eternal blessing awaits me (v.9 end). My behavior will lead to one of two outcomes for these people. Either they will be saved (2:12 end) or they will be silenced (2:15) / put to shame (3:16) by God.

Your questions was "tolerate?" That means I can quickly walk away! If they know I'm a Christian (and especially a Pastor), they judge Christ for my behavior while ignoring my own. That's what God doesn't want me to cause to happen.

And, why let anyone bother you? In other words, why give up your peace and joy because of some stranger who has "issues?" Like they say, "Consider the source..." I have enough concerns for my family, my flock, my fellow Christians and friends. Today has enough trouble of its own (Matt 6)! I save my energy for the important people in my life.

Consider these passages of Scripture that contain some of the verses I mentioned:

Ro12:13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. 20 “BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
1 Pe3:8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. 10 For, “THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT. 11 “HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD; HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT. 12 “FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL.”


God bless,
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:47 AM
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I believe we should accept others for their beliefs, but when those beliefs cause a group to actually infringe upon the basic rights of others,
we have an obligation and should stand up for those whose lives, especially those of the innocent, and rights, are being infringed upon, or attacked, or unfairly taken away whether or not the law allows it.

When it comes to abortion, for example, pro-abortion supporters say that pro lifers are infringing on the a parents right to freedom...to choose abortion, to elimintate an unborn baby. However that argument is weak, because the killing of an unborn person (who btw has unique DNA from his or her mother), infringes on the unborn’s BASIC HUMAN RIGHT TO LIVE.
Without the most basic of HUMAN RIGHTS to LIVE, (which ALL humans are supposed to have according to progressive Activists), all other RIGHTS: SPEECH, BAR ARMS, PURSUE HAPPINESS, PRIVACY are useless, and in this case I believe it is the right thing to protect the most innocent in preserving the basic right to life.

The right to bear arms is a law abidiNg citizens right to preserve our lives from violent criminals.

We should uphold that law and fight those who do not tolerate supporters of our natural right to preserving our lives which includes the second amendment.

It is a charity to put ourselves on the line to protect our brothers and sisters from the intolerant, no matter the personal or religious beliefs of the victimized because we believe that, as children of God, that those victims also deserve human dignity and the basic rights of life.

Last edited by Burble74; 06-09-2018 at 1:10 PM..
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
I think your approach to tolerance is a good one. If someone wants to believe a certain way, that's fine. But as soon as that someone wants to impose their beliefs on others, that's when I, too, bristle.
Yes, which is why I don't tolerate forced intolerance of intolerance.

Freedom of speech, worship and assembly,
as well as the right to petition government for redress of grievances,
are fundamental rights.

Those who profess the greatest tolerance, progressives, happen to be the most intolerant. They tolerate only likemindedness. Think as they think, speak as they speak, do as they do, or else.
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Old 06-09-2018, 1:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philobeddoe View Post
Yes, which is why I don't tolerate forced intolerance of intolerance.

Freedom of speech, worship and assembly,
as well as the right to petition government for redress of grievances,
are fundamental rights.

Those who profess the greatest tolerance, progressives, happen to be the most intolerant. They tolerate only likemindedness. Think as they think, speak as they speak, do as they do, or else.
So much for being “progressive”. They are so good at labeling things in such a deceptive way...maybe regressive is a more accurate buzz word since they tolerate evil-doing in the name of respecting another culture, BUT they do not tolerate differences of opinion...

Last edited by Burble74; 06-09-2018 at 1:17 PM..
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Old 06-11-2018, 7:29 AM
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To me, tolerance means disagreeing with someone else's beliefs while upholding their value as a person created in the image of God.
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Old 06-11-2018, 7:36 AM
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tolerance is fine, as long as it does not devolve into ecumenism.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:43 AM
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I draw the line when people with opposite views attempt to influence or create legislation supporting only their POV. Also, don't thin kthat your freedom of expression extends to acting violently upon other of opposing viewpoints - there's nothing in the constitution saying I can't knock you on your arse for trying to play tough guy and getting handsy with me.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-J View Post
I draw the line when people with opposite views attempt to influence or create legislation supporting only their POV. Also, don't thin kthat your freedom of expression extends to acting violently upon other of opposing viewpoints - there's nothing in the constitution saying I can't knock you on your arse for trying to play tough guy and getting handsy with me.
I don't think there's anything wrong with creating legislation supporting only our POV. For example, no drunk driving, no smoking in restaurants, no visible porn near kids, no selling drugs in school, no child molesters working near children, on and on. If someone's for those things, too bad.

And although there's nothing in the constitution about disallowing you from knocking someone on their arse, there are local and federal laws against assault.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
I don't think there's anything wrong with creating legislation supporting only our POV. For example, no drunk driving, no smoking in restaurants, no visible porn near kids, no selling drugs in school, no child molesters working near children, on and on. If someone's for those things, too bad.

And although there's nothing in the constitution about disallowing you from knocking someone on their arse, there are local and federal laws against assault.
Agreed. Some measure of forced tolerance is exactly what I support. Not wholesale. Just some basic human decency stuff.

Personally, I get along just fine with most progressives. I think their political changes are often pointless and naive. But their hearts seem to be in the right place so I can at least respect that. I lean more libertarian. But I also know that ship sailed many years ago & the basic ideas of libertarianism died with the NeoConservative movement that started just after the Revolution (darned Hamilton!). So, once again, I try not to take myself too seriously on it. It's a lost cause in this urbanized superpower of a country.
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Old 06-12-2018, 3:55 PM
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"Tolerance/tolerate" appears 9x in The Bible, and in EVERY case, in the negative sense (i.e., Ps.101: 5 - "Whoever slanders their neighbor in secret, I will put to silence; whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, I will not tolerate.").


MY position on "tolerance," as some sort of new 'sacrament' amongst liberal Christians, is this;


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Old 06-13-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
"Tolerance/tolerate" appears 9x in The Bible, and in EVERY case, in the negative sense (i.e., Ps.101: 5 - "Whoever slanders their neighbor in secret, I will put to silence; whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, I will not tolerate.").


MY position on "tolerance," as some sort of new 'sacrament' amongst liberal Christians, is this;


True. The ancient Hebrews tolerated the Canaanites about as well as Hitler tolerated their modern descendants. A religious state in the former case and a state religion in the latter.

For my own life, I'm more concerned about personal ethics than being right. I want to be able to be dead wrong and still live an ethical life. If I get all my facts right but still treat others like trash, then I don't think anything in my head matters all that much anymore.

Last edited by CVShooter; 06-13-2018 at 11:51 AM..
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Old 06-20-2018, 3:26 PM
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This is EXACTLY why I voted Republican in last election, across the board.

When it comes to social issues, I am actually somewhere to the left on most issues, ranging from what some here would call "extreme left" to center left.

So while my personal viewpoint no doubt agrees with the liberals on a lot of issues, the way in which those liberal viewpoints are being put forth is scary as f*** to me. To me, the bigger evil to fight is the typical leftist elitist stance that anyone who does not agree with their viewpoint is a knuckle-dragging imbecile and should be castigated. It is too much thought police for me. And in my view the Republicans are very much overall representing the view of "Don't care what you think, lemme think what I think, and lets leave it at that", which is to me more about what this country is supposed to be about.
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:04 PM
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I always looked at it like this- everyone has a right to throw a punch, but that ends where my nuts begin.
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