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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #81  
Old 08-09-2014, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustEd View Post
You do realize that submachine guns like the UZI and Thompson use a pistol caliber cartridge. They are considered serious weapons so a semi-auto version would seem to be as well imo.
Sure - but a full-auto SMG as a weapon class is one that has an extremely specialized purpose. So much so that when intermediate-caliber assault rifles (the current paradigm in standard infantry weapons a the present) became commonplace, SMGs were issued only for very specialized missions. It generally isn't something you'd use in a survival kit.

Oh - and LOL @ rifle-caliber "pistols." Yes, they're "pistols" in terms of their legal nomenclature per the DoJ and ATF rules, but in function and purpose, they're stockless, short barreled rifles. Not exactly something you would carry in a hip holster.

After watching several videos of people with PCCs and what they can do, I'm certainly convinced of their utility and suitability as a "serious" armament, with the added bonus of ammunition compatibility with one's handgun. I'm also convinced that between a PCC and a rifle-caliber arm of similar weight and handling characteristics, the rifle-caliber arm is by far the better choice because of greater range and power. A 30-30 lever is superior to a .357 lever and a Mini-14 is superior to a PC-9. However, if you're just shooting at things (or people) that are within rock-throwing distances, it doesn't matter as much.
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  #82  
Old 08-09-2014, 9:12 AM
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Also, to add, SMG's are designed to shoot full auto.
I've never shot one, but I imagine they're much easier to handle
at full auto vs something like an M14.

Since I'm on the topic of SMG's I've never fired before,
I was recently irked by watching comparisons between semi-auto versions of a
UMP/USC and a Kriss Vector. The Kriss has like double the rate of fire.
That's a difference most will never truly appreciate.
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  #83  
Old 08-09-2014, 9:42 AM
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My 38/357 pair. In a survival situation they would put game meat on the table. A 158gr JHP 357 leaves the Marlin carbine at 1850 fps.

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  #84  
Old 08-09-2014, 12:05 PM
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Beautiful guns, kokopelli!

158 grains at 1850fps will definitely leave a mark!
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  #85  
Old 08-09-2014, 4:58 PM
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Been thinking about getting another lever gun in a pistol cartridge, my dilemma is deciding between the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt or .454 Casull. I like the idea of having the extra power of a Casull on tap, IF it will also reliably feed .45 Colt so I can swap between it and my Taylor's SAA.
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  #86  
Old 08-09-2014, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by chuckdc View Post
Been thinking about getting another lever gun in a pistol cartridge, my dilemma is deciding between the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt or .454 Casull. I like the idea of having the extra power of a Casull on tap, IF it will also reliably feed .45 Colt so I can swap between it and my Taylor's SAA.
IMO, the best thing about the Rossi in .454 is you can top\tube load it as well as using the gate. I wish they would do that with some other caliber...
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  #87  
Old 08-10-2014, 7:32 AM
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The 45 Colt can safely be loaded to awesome levels. The Rossi 92 is one of the strongest repeating actions you can find in 45LC making it a great option for hot loads. Paco Kelley has a great article on the 45/92 subject.
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  #88  
Old 08-10-2014, 9:14 PM
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I have one of the Rossi lever carbines in 357. It is loads of fun. Shooting 38 Special with it feels like shooting 22lr. After firing a tube of 357, the 38 Special has such low recoil in comparison that I thought I forgot to load the gun.
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  #89  
Old 08-12-2014, 8:34 PM
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OP, "...not necessarily being a serious tool in a serious situation...".
Not sure I agree. If you look at the published uses (probably many more that cannot be published) of the MP-5 in serious conflicts alone since the 70's, I think you would agree that it has been a smashing success and not a novelty as implied.
That one can share rounds with a handgun is closer to the actual novelty as I don't imagine a bunch of U.S. Navy Seals swapping rounds during a mission unless there was a serious disaster unfolding.
So a quality PCC definitely has it's place but in reality for the type of serious uses referenced above, it most often has a full-auto selector and a suppressor.
In many cases (i.e. those where the selection of firearms are limited and thus the department or organization has to 'choose' what they purchase) the PCC is or has been replaced by an SBR M4 config. As I noted, the sharing of rounds with a sidearm is not pertinent and the familiarity (of the shooter and the armorer) as well as the increased range and energy level has it's advantages. Of course these designs also have a full-auto mode and suppressor.
For civilian HD/SD, a semi-auto PCC (with or without suppressor) still makes a lot of sense. Without suppressor it's less loud, has sufficient range and since a civilian has more financial limitations on buying and storing ammunition, I would think the ammo sharing is a benefit.
For these reasons and for historical value I still think that stretching the budget before the end of the year here in CA (when the SSE leaves us) to buy an MP5 pistol clone is something you will thank yourself for for many many years.
B

Last edited by B!ngo; 08-12-2014 at 8:51 PM..
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  #90  
Old 08-12-2014, 8:44 PM
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Do you have either of the revolvers (pistols) that you referenced in .45 Colt or .454 Casull? Just my opinion of course but sharing the Alaskan with a .44 revolver seems like a yet-more-perfect match. You'll get the power you need from the .44 when shot from the Alaskan and you'll have a more shootable (is that a word?) revolver when loaded with .44 Mags and certainly with .44 Specials.
I'm hoping to purchase an Alaskan in .44 next year depending on budget to match up with my S&W PC V-Comp .44. A beautiful pairing with a delicate bouquet.
B

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckdc View Post
Been thinking about getting another lever gun in a pistol cartridge, my dilemma is deciding between the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt or .454 Casull. I like the idea of having the extra power of a Casull on tap, IF it will also reliably feed .45 Colt so I can swap between it and my Taylor's SAA.
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  #91  
Old 08-12-2014, 8:50 PM
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To answer ops question. Yes, it makes sense. I personally kind of like the folding keltec sub 2000 (featureless) in 9mm that tends to match real well with Glock 19, and glock 26. All of the larger mags fit into all firearms. Can't beat a glock 18 mag in any of them for capability of sheer number of fast moving little pieces of lead at ones immediate disposal .... you know that zombie thing. you might need that shoulder thing that goes up...

Last edited by Charlie50; 08-12-2014 at 8:58 PM..
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  #92  
Old 08-13-2014, 10:11 AM
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I have a pump carbine in .357, and it is amazing how controllable and accurate it is out to 100 yards. While I can shoot .357 out of my revolver, I can;t shoot it all day like I can the carbine.

A carbine allows you to reliably hit targets with a handgun cartridge beyond the ranges you will reliably achieve with a handgun, but within ranges where the cartridge's performance is still satisfactory.

Add to that, it is much quicker, easier, and cheaper to reload a pistol cartridge than a rifle cartridge, and it makes a great addition to the collection.

So yes to fun, and yes to practical.
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  #93  
Old 08-13-2014, 2:58 PM
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Everyone talks about lever action carbines, don't forget Ruger makes some fine pistol cartridge carbines--- 77/.357 and 77/.44
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  #94  
Old 08-13-2014, 4:19 PM
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9mm M1 Carbine for $510

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  #95  
Old 08-13-2014, 8:23 PM
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Honestly, if I was going to carry a rifle, I would want a rifle caliber. Pistol calibers do perform better when used in rifle length barrels, but are still leagues behind modern rifle cartridges. If you are getting all the extra weight and size of a rifle, just go with the rifle caliber as well.
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  #96  
Old 08-13-2014, 9:15 PM
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My little 1894 holds 9 rounds of some really mean 45 Colt loads that will put a +0.450" hole all the way through just about any critter in north america and only weighs 6lbs. A lot faster than a full size bolt gun too.
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  #97  
Old 08-14-2014, 1:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Mode View Post
9mm M1 Carbine for $510

I'd seen that. Too bad it takes Beretta mags (A gun I no longer own) and not Glock mags (of which I have plenty)

Is there anyone making a PC-9 clone that takes Glock mags? Something that therefore doesn't need the bullet button?

Again - thanks everyone for the responses. While I am certainly convinced that shooting a pistol cartridge out of a PCC (lever, bolt, semi, or otherwise) elevates the performance of its cartridge in many ways (speed, ballistics, greater accuracy and precision, greater ease of handling than a handgun, less penetration than rifle calibers) - I'm also convinced that yes, sharing the ammo with a handgun is mainly novelty, and perhaps of high importance only to someone who is an extreme minimalist and is looking to have a 2-gun battery, who reloads, and/or is constantly on the move and may be in situations where this ammo compatibility would be useful.

The only such scenario I can think of would be someone basically living in the wilds of Alaska or Canada who may not be able to get to a gunstore for months and months and perhaps the ones they can get to might not carry the specific handgun AND rifle caliber they are carrying, if they were carrying a long gun/handgun combo.

Now, I've not been in the wilds of the Great White North, (you know, Marin County )but I would imagine that even in some remote small-town general store, you could find boxes of 30-06, 30-30, .308, .270 and .223 alongside boxes of the big 3 auto calibers (9x19, .40, .45) and probably .38, .357, and .44. I just kind of doubt that in 2014, we'd have some mountain man stumble into some wildland outpost, after weeks or months in the field, and have him needing ammo to feed two guns (of different calibers) and not being able to supply them both as long as they're using common calibers.

Now - if he was using a .22LR rifle and handgun combo.......well, poor guy is gonna starve.
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  #98  
Old 08-14-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
Honestly, if I was going to carry a rifle, I would want a rifle caliber. Pistol calibers do perform better when used in rifle length barrels, but are still leagues behind modern rifle cartridges. If you are getting all the extra weight and size of a rifle, just go with the rifle caliber as well.
Except that there are good reasons to choose a pistol cartridge over a rifle cartridge. The softer report and less blinding muzzle flash make it preferable for indoors use (which is a likely scenario for a civilian shooter). The lower recoil makes rapid follow-up shots easier and more accurate. There's the whole sharing of ammo between your side-arm and your rifle (though I agree that for most people nowadays, that's more novelty than anything). The ammo is more compact. And, at any likely range at which you'll be shooting in self-defense, even a 9mm will deliver plenty of energy and will be plenty accurate, especially out of a long gun.

Now, I'm not denying the advantages of a rifle calibers (especially at ranges >200yds) or suggesting that the military should ever consider a PCC for front-line soldiers. I'm just saying pistol-calibers out of a long-gun can and do make sense, especially for civilian shooters.

Last edited by Kyuu; 08-14-2014 at 12:46 PM..
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  #99  
Old 08-14-2014, 2:14 PM
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Also the issue that not everyone has easy access to a rifle range.
Most indoor ranges will allow pistol caliber carbines.
And at Angeles Shooting Range, there's that cool steel gallery that's perfect for it.

The Citadel 9mm M1 may not be the best option, but for brand new, reasonably priced, featureless (no bullet button needed) pistol caliber carbines with cheap, easy to get magazines available.... I think it's the only game in town, right now.

The ruger 77/357 is something I really like.... but I keep reading about feeding issues.
And that's sucks.
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  #100  
Old 08-14-2014, 3:15 PM
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Another great combo IMHO. This one in 40 S&W:
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  #101  
Old 08-14-2014, 5:06 PM
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^Do they use the same magazines, tmh1?
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  #102  
Old 08-14-2014, 6:34 PM
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^Do they use the same magazines, tmh1?
Still confirming level of reliability but with 1 range trip in the bag, so far so good. Gun is set up for Beretta 96fs mags, but so far CZ75 in 40 are also working just fine.

Low number of rounds tested so far - to be increased soon.
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  #103  
Old 08-23-2014, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B!ngo View Post
Do you have either of the revolvers (pistols) that you referenced in .45 Colt or .454 Casull? Just my opinion of course but sharing the Alaskan with a .44 revolver seems like a yet-more-perfect match. You'll get the power you need from the .44 when shot from the Alaskan and you'll have a more shootable (is that a word?) revolver when loaded with .44 Mags and certainly with .44 Specials.
I'm hoping to purchase an Alaskan in .44 next year depending on budget to match up with my S&W PC V-Comp .44. A beautiful pairing with a delicate bouquet.
B
I already have a Taylor & Co (Uberti) in .45 Colt/.45 ACP (spare cylinder). I don't currently own a .454 Casull, and I can't really see a need for one in a handgun. I DO own a Smith 629 in .44 that would do most of the things I might use a .454 for. I also have a couple .357s and a Winchester 94 in .357. I like the pairing of a "Peacemaker" with a lever action of the same caliber.
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  #104  
Old 08-23-2014, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Mode View Post
.

The ruger 77/357 is something I really like.... but I keep reading about feeding issues.
And that's sucks.
I have the 77/357 and I don't know about feeding issues. I have two mags and both feed all 357 and 38 ammo that I tried in it.

You probably also read that you can't top off the mag while it's inserted. That's also false. I actually prefer to keep the mag inserted and load from the top.

My 77/357 has become my favorite rifle and I really don't care about caliber sharing with a handgun because I'll probably be carrying my G19 instead of a revolver.

Currently Gallery of Guns has a blued steel/synthetic 77/357 exclusive and is priced much better than the stainless. They are awesome guns!

I think the M1 Carbine in 9mm would be worth a look. If they made a kit for Glock mags I think they'd sell very well. Still the 92 mags are ok and for XD9 owners, XD9 mags can very easily be modified to work and 92 mags can be modified to work in the XD9. Depending on tolerances Sig P226 mags might also fit with minor modification. The modifications are so minor that the mags would still work perfectly in the intended pistols.

Last edited by smittty; 08-23-2014 at 9:16 PM..
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  #105  
Old 08-29-2014, 2:36 PM
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This would be fun in a free state


You could probably buy with a fake suppressor shroud. Uses 1911 magazines.
Wow, this thing is awesome. Want!
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  #106  
Old 08-29-2014, 2:53 PM
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Default .22LR

So ... does .22LR count as a pistol caliber?


I just built this thing. Here is the same thing with the reflex sight attached to the top.



I must say ... this thing is a blast to shoot. It prints really tiny groups too.
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  #107  
Old 08-31-2014, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
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I believe it's Marlin not Ruger.
you are absolutely correct.... color me embarrassed
Was also thinking of the Ruger .44 carbine.
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  #108  
Old 09-01-2014, 3:31 AM
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Some of Paco's .45 LC loads in a strong Rosi 92:

350 grain WFN/LBT (CAST PERFORMANCE BULLETS)

16.5/2400 1450 fps/ 30,000 CUP

21/H110 1590 fps/ 32,500 CUP

24/H110 1660 fps/ 48,000 CUP

For a 350 grain bullet, we are talking 45/70 power from a Long Colt ( a solid deer load if you can take the recoil from a light rifle)
I have never seen loads at this level for a .44 magnum out of a rifle. The Long Colt is a more powerful round, and Paco says .45 LC brass
is stronger than .44 magnum.
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Old 09-01-2014, 4:53 AM
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I very much enjoy my Kriss Vector Carbine.

45 ACP with an innovative action that sends the recoil downward so it minimizes muzzle climb. In semi-auto, there is basically no muzzle climb. Takes Glock 21 mags.
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  #110  
Old 09-01-2014, 5:10 AM
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S&W 8 3/8" 629 Classic & 18" (10) round IMI Timberwolf pump in 44 Mag is my favorite combo.
Finally tracked down the Timberwolf about 10 yrs ago. 240gr JHP / 1640 fps
Its my favorite rifle. And just happens to be chambered in a pistol cartridge.

Cool info here. Just click the caliber.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

.
.
.

Last edited by MCM; 09-01-2014 at 8:08 PM.. Reason: -5 sp.
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Old 09-01-2014, 7:59 PM
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Quote:
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I know - TMFA (Too Many Acronyms) At my work, we once had a list compiled of all of our "commonly used acronyms." There were approximately 50 of them!
only 50? clearly you don't work in IT, Law Enforcement or are currently a serving member of the military :P
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  #112  
Old 09-05-2014, 10:52 PM
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The main advantage of the PCC is recoil (even a small woman or child can handle one in 9mm or .40/.45), and noise.

Ever shoot a pistol caliber ong gun at an indoor range? They're downright quiet with 16" barrels. 9mm sounds like a .22 pistol. Indoors at night for defense, it won't ring your bell like a 12 gauge or .223 will. Ther is also virtually ZERO muzzle flash out of a 16" barreled PCC. And if you use lightweight JHP bullets, they will fragment and penetrate the same or less than those rounds out of a handgun. Try it and see.

-Dave
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  #113  
Old 09-06-2014, 5:21 AM
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Originally Posted by saki302 View Post
The main advantage of the PCC is recoil (even a small woman or child can handle one in 9mm or .40/.45), and noise.

Ever shoot a pistol caliber ong gun at an indoor range? They're downright quiet with 16" barrels. 9mm sounds like a .22 pistol. Indoors at night for defense, it won't ring your bell like a 12 gauge or .223 will. Ther is also virtually ZERO muzzle flash out of a 16" barreled PCC. And if you use lightweight JHP bullets, they will fragment and penetrate the same or less than those rounds out of a handgun. Try it and see.

-Dave
You raise a good point. Pistol caliber carbines have a significant increase in energy. Does that energy equate to sufficient stopping power for self defense? We all know that a rifle is superior to a pistol for protection but it would seem that the PCC is midway between a handgun and rifle.

Next comes ammo. Does a light weight for caliber JHP disintegrate like a varmint bullet when launched from a PCC?
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  #114  
Old 09-06-2014, 5:15 PM
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I went to the range recently and rented a 77/357.
It was very smooth and soft shooting. I want one!

Also, rented a PC9. That's a great gun, too!
Many don't realize that these 9mm carbines are mostly blowbacks,
So they have these heavy bolts that have this weighted CLUNK feel when cycling.
Not a turn off, just a different kick.

My brother liked it enough and bought one off gunbroker the other day.

It will be AWESOME when we take it to steel plate heaven over at Angeles Range.

He also has a M&P9 and I recently showed him this...
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...owtopic=165538

Some guy got p89 mags to work in his m&p....which is a nice coincidence and a great
California featureless carbine/handgun combo that can share mags.
Very....very cool.
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Last edited by Guardian Mode; 09-06-2014 at 5:23 PM..
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  #115  
Old 09-08-2014, 7:07 PM
Not a Cook Not a Cook is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
IDK

We took a 5 inch stack of phone books and wrapped then in duct tape. A 9mm pistol didn't fully penetrate the front cover leaving about 1/8th inch of brass sticking out the front of the block.

The 9mm rifle blew clean thru.

Lacking a better way to measure I'd say about 10x
Interesting test. Do you mind my asking if it was the same ammo, and what type (FMJ, HP, etc.)? Also, what length barrel on the rifle?
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  #116  
Old 09-08-2014, 7:53 PM
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Cowboy T Cowboy T is offline
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For me, the advantage of a rifle in pistol-cartridge chambering is as follows. I'll use a .44 Magnum levergun as an example. If you're in, say, the East Coast woods, which are pretty thick ("long" shots are 125 yards), you can generally load up 8-10 rounds of .44 Magnum and get your wild hog, deer, or other sustenance game animal. A .44 Magnum, already powerful, takes on entirely new power levels when fired out of a rifle-length barrel. Of course, your sidearm in .44 Magnum is also at your side.

Reloading a tubular-magazine rifle with dispatch can take some practice, but it can be done with reasonable speed. A Ruger 96/44 uses rotary magazines that are remarkably quick to change out and reload.

Since the round is powerful enough to take down fairly large wild hogs, it's therefore also powerful enough to take down a two-legged predator. You'll have six shots out of your sidearm, plus 8-10 shots out of your rifle. For its power, the .44 Magnum round is reasonably compact enough to carry enough to hold you over for a while.

Now, I'm talking about 100-yard shots on the East Coast, or maybe WROL like after Horricane Katrina or Superstorm Sandy. These assumptions obviously don't necessarily hold on the Western prairies. In that case, I'd go separate chamberings for rifle and handgun.
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Old 09-14-2014, 4:03 PM
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One reason PCC are hard to find, besides Cowboy Action Shooting, is that Indiana (and maybe some other states) have written their game laws to restrict rifles to such calibers. I would be willing to bet that vast majority of Ruger 77s in .357 and .44 mag are sold in these states.........
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