Legality of Ak thordsen stock?

[rumble phish]

JESUS H. FREAKING CHRIST ON A CRACKER!!! HOW MANY TIMES IS THIS HORSE GOING TO BE BEATEN TO DEATH???

IT'S NOT A PISTOL GRIP IN ANY SENSE OF THE TERM!!! IT IS A STOCK!! THE "RULES" FOR A PISTOL GRIP DO NOT APPLY TO A THORDSON STOCK!!

[elSquid]

M14E2 style stock...

Attachment 716358



-- Michael

[rumble phish]

Originally Posted by elSquid

M14E2 style stock...

Attachment 716358



-- Michael

Not even close.

[God Bless America]

Originally Posted by rumble phish

JESUS H. FREAKING CHRIST ON A CRACKER!!! HOW MANY TIMES IS THIS HORSE GOING TO BE BEATEN TO DEATH???

IT'S NOT A PISTOL GRIP IN ANY SENSE OF THE TERM!!! IT IS A STOCK!! THE "RULES" FOR A PISTOL GRIP DO NOT APPLY TO A THORDSON STOCK!!

Yelling just shows that you are frustrated. It doesn't make what you say true.

Call it a turnip if you want, but if you grasp it like PG and the web is below the magic line then you have a problem.

You didn't fall for the "solvent traps" or brass-knuckle-shaped "paperweights" did you?

[rumble phish]

Originally Posted by God Bless America

Yelling just shows that you are frustrated. It doesn't make that you say true.

Call it a turnip if you want, but if you grasp it like PG and the web is below the magic line then you have a problem.

You didn't fall for the "solvent traps" or brass-knuckle-shaped "paperweights did you?

No, but apparently you've fallen for the "but the web of your hand..." argument over the Thordson stock.

[boopiejones]

Originally Posted by rumble phish

No, but apparently you've fallen for the "but the web of your hand..." argument over the Thordson stock.

So if the stock and grip are connected as one unit, the rules for pistol grips don’t apply? I call BS on that.

If that was the case then someone should design a fixed stock with a grip, forward grip, flash hider and grenade launcher all in one unit and we can still go featureless because it’s just a “fixed stock”

[rumble phish]

Originally Posted by boopiejones

So if the stock and grip are connected as one unit, the rules for pistol grips don’t apply? I call BS on that.

If that was the case then someone should design a fixed stock with a grip, forward grip, flash hider and grenade launcher all in one unit and we can still go featureless because it’s just a “fixed stock”

Seems you lack the intelligence to comprehend the design of the Thordson. If you haven't got it by now, you're never gonna get it.

[God Bless America]

Originally Posted by rumble phish

Seems you lack the intelligence to comprehend the design of the Thordson. If you haven't got it by now, you're never gonna get it.

Maybe you are seeing something nobody else is seeing? If your "but it's a STOCK" argument held water, why not shape the part that attaches to the receiver more like PG? That would be way more comfortable and useful.

[boopiejones]

Originally Posted by rumble phish

Seems you lack the intelligence to comprehend the design of the Thordson. If you haven't got it by now, you're never gonna get it.

If you’re so much smarter than me, please explain how the pistol grip laws don’t apply to a stock/grip combo such as the thordsen. how about explaining your reasoning rather than shouting and resorting to personal attacks? So far, you’ve basically told me and others “you are stupid. It’s a stock” with zero evidence to back up your assertions.

Black guns aren’t a protected class in California. This isn’t a gender issue. Thordsen cannot skirt pistol grip laws by saying their product “identifies” as a stock. And I certainly don’t think that argument would hold water when you’re confronted by a LEO either.

[God Bless America]

Has Thordsen said that "it cannot be a PG because it is a stock"?

I didn't see that on the website.

For the record, I like the stock, it is a great idea, not criticizing it at all.

[boopiejones]

Originally Posted by God Bless America

Has Thordsen said that "it cannot be a PG because it is a stock"?

I didn't see that on the website.

For the record, I like the stock, it is a great idea, not criticizing it at all.

I don’t believe that thordsen has said anything like that, but rumble phish certainly did. If you look at the compliance document on their website, it references a section of the CA AW laws and says they received guidance from legal counsel that it does not meet the definition of an AW. It also shows pictures of their product on an AR only. Not on an AK

The concern I have is that the webbing of the hand sits significantly lower when the thordsen product is mounted on an AK, and therefore may meet the definition of “pistol grip” which is a “feature” that requires AW registration.

http://www.thordsencustoms.com/media...R_STATE_IS.pdf

[AJAX22]

The ak variant allows for a pistol style grasp that places the web of the hand below the top of the trigger.

The ar variant doesent have that problem (although with the spacer installed the 308 variant does.)

It’s considered a pistol grip in CA.

If your not willing to pay the legal fees of the guy who gets arrested with it, maybe at least pay chuck michell for an actual legal opinion letter to package with them?

[IVC]

Originally Posted by Thordo

A "pistol grip" is a standalone feature as is a "rifle stock". They have completely different definitions in the new regs and are not related.

Thordo

Originally Posted by Thordo

And again position of the web does not apply to the definition of a "rifle stock".

Thordo

Originally Posted by God Bless America

Has Thordsen said that "it cannot be a PG because it is a stock"?

Originally Posted by boopiejones

I don’t believe that thordsen has said anything like that, but rumble phish certainly did. If you look at the compliance document on their website, ...

Well, they said it here in this thread...

[IVC]

Originally Posted by AJAX22

It’s considered a pistol grip in CA.

^^^ This would be my guess for any device/stock/grip that places webbing of the shooting hand below the top of the exposed trigger. Webbing location determines whether something is a pistol grip in CA. I have never seen any law or regulation that would suggest otherwise or imply that PG is not a feature if it's part of the stock.

[Blade Gunner]

P

Originally Posted by AJAX22

The ak variant allows for a pistol style grasp that places the web of the hand below the top of the trigger.

The ar variant doesent have that problem (although with the spacer installed the 308 variant does.)

It’s considered a pistol grip in CA.

If your not willing to pay the legal fees of the guy who gets arrested with it, maybe at least pay chuck michell for an actual legal opinion letter to package with them?

Chuck Michell has written several legal opinion letters for featureless products. The letters essential say the product is not an evil feature as defined in the CA regs. It does not say the product is legal. That is up to the end user to decide. Also be aware opinion letters only offer legal protection to the company or person that retained the law firm for the letter and it’s usually limited to civil (product liability) issued not criminal prosecution. Hence, you as the end user of the product is not shielded from prosecution by the opinion letter, nor does it obligate the issuing law firm to defend you. You may introduce the opinion letter as an affirmative defense, but it is not a magic get out of jail free card.

[apbrian112]

Originally Posted by Blade Gunner

P

Chuck Michell has written several legal opinion letters for featureless products. The letters essential say the product is not an evil feature as defined in the CA regs. It does not say the product is legal. That is up to the end user to decide. Also be aware opinion letters only offer legal protection to the company or person that retained the law firm for the letter and it’s usually limited to civil (product liability) issued not criminal prosecution. Hence, you as the end user of the product is not shielded from prosecution by the opinion letter, nor does it obligate the issuing law firm to defend you. You may introduce the opinion letter as an affirmative defense, but it is not a magic get out of jail free card.

But it's a helluva lot better than saying, "no officer, this is not a pistol grip because there was this guy who typed in all caps on Calguns saying it wasn't."

[Blade Gunner]

Originally Posted by apbrian112

But it's a helluva lot better than saying, "no officer, this is not a pistol grip because there was this guy who typed in all caps on Calguns saying it wasn't."

Yes it certainly is.
As an example, here is a legal opinion written by Church Michel for Sparrow Dynamics
http://www.sparrowdynamics.com/v/vsp...l-Analysis.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[9mmrevolver]

For the record I like the ar15 thord. People argue that it not a pistol grip becuase it’s a stock for the ak. If the stock argument was legitimate then the archangel stock for the m1a would also be legal.

[Rifle ronin]

Originally Posted by Rifle ronin

On the AR version of the thordsen gen 2 stock, the web of the thumb and forefinger are above the trigger housing. On the gen3 AK version the web of the thumb and forefinger are below. If it is not necessary for the AK version, then why is the web of the hand still above the trigger housing on the AR version on the gen3?

Originally Posted by jdben92883

If the position of the hand is irrelevant because the Thordsen stock is not a grip, then why did the AR version go to such great lengths to emphasize where the hand web rested in relation to the trigger. And if the hand position doesn't matter, then why not redesign the AR version to be more comfortable/traditional with a steeper grip angle?

I asked this already, I don't think it can be answered.

[deckhandmike]

If I was thordsen I would turn one in and be the test case. Don’t let us take one for the team. It looks way too not kosher. They get a test case I’ll buy them and recommend them to everyone I know.

[Rifle ronin]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

If I was thordsen I would turn one in and be the test case. Don’t let us take one for the team. It looks way too not kosher. They get a test case I’ll buy them and recommend them to everyone I know.

Capitalism. Why should the company spend anymore money then they have too. Also, it's already been said that the cadoj (non caps intended) will not approve of anything, even if it adheres to the law.

[deckhandmike]

Originally Posted by Rifle ronin

Capitalism. Why should the company spend anymore money then they have too. Also, it's already been said that the cadoj (non caps intended) will not approve of anything, even if it adheres to the law.

Capitalism? Are you serious? When companies make things they need to test them. It’s their responsibility. And I know the cadoj doesn’t approve things. I’m saying Thordsen should call the PD and say I have a room full of questionably legal AK’s and when a judge decides they don’t violate CA law we would have an answer. That’s called a test case.

[Rifle ronin]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

Capitalism? Are you serious? When companies make things they need to test them. It’s their responsibility. And I know the cadoj doesn’t approve things. I’m saying Thordsen should call the PD and say I have a room full of questionably legal AK’s and when a judge decides they don’t violate CA law we would have an answer. That’s called a test case.

1. They should test functionality not legality.

2. Seriously? You question me and then wrote that?....trolling or just...

[Thordo]

Originally Posted by Rifle ronin

I own a thordsen stock. I love it and appreciate Thordo's company whole-heartedly for their help in CA.

So here is the But,
Why is the AR version still above the trigger guard? I understand why the AK version is not.

The design of the lower dictates how the stock attaches.

Our large frame .308 kits, SIG kits, and CZ kits are wildly popular and on all of them, the web is below the highest point of the exposed trigger. No one has expressed concern about any of them.

Thordo

[Thordo]

Originally Posted by elSquid

M14E2 style stock...

Attachment 716358



-- Michael

The M14E2 is marketed as a "pistol grip stock". We market the FRS as a stock with a traditional rifle grasp.

As with muzzle devices, CA DOJ uses marketing materials from manufacturers as one way to determine what is and isn't considered compliant. Stupid but true!!

Thordo