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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 11-11-2010, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
You are wrong.

A LEO has NO RIGHT to check any case, bag, box, or container unless you state or admit it contains a firearm. Only firearms can be checked to ensure proper storage and safe condition. There is no such thing as a "loaded" case, bag, box, or container... only firearms.

Just because there is a firearm related case, box, bag, or container DOES NOT mean there is a firearm present. And a firearm is the only thing a LEO can perform such a check on.
Apologies if someone covered this later in the thread.

Your comment is similar to many others here; are you saying if a cop asks after you've broken, say, a speeding law, and the cop asks whether there is a gun in your gun case, and there is, you can lie and say there isn't and then refuse to open it when he asks you to do that?
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  #82  
Old 11-11-2010, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Why is this IMPOSSIBLE to find in New York State?
You can request one of my cards, I will send it to you, but just write your own attorney's number on it. I don't care, just protect yourself. If you do not have a local attorney, call the NRA or other local gun association and ask them who they recommend. But definitely get a number.
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  #83  
Old 11-11-2010, 11:37 AM
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Great advice from great people on here. Damn. I'm not expecting to get involved in a situation like this but knowing the pros and cons of the reactions and the consequences they might lead to gives me knowledge to apply to other scenarios.
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  #84  
Old 11-11-2010, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by faterikcartman View Post
Apologies if someone covered this later in the thread.

Your comment is similar to many others here; are you saying if a cop asks after you've broken, say, a speeding law, and the cop asks whether there is a gun in your gun case, and there is, you can lie and say there isn't and then refuse to open it when he asks you to do that?

If you are pulled over for a traffic infraction and a cop asks to search your vehicle or open any containers inside (plain view or not), you can legally refuse that request. There is no legal requirement to volunteer any information about the contents of your vehicle or allow police to search (unless they believe they have PC or RS).

The fact that you have a "gun case" does not mean it contains a gun. Police have the legal right to ensure the proper and safe transport of any firearm. However, they have to either see the firearm, or be informed or be made aware of its existance somehow.
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  #85  
Old 11-11-2010, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
If you are pulled over for a traffic infraction and a cop asks to search your vehicle or open any containers inside (plain view or not), you can legally refuse that request. There is no legal requirement to volunteer any information about the contents of your vehicle or allow police to search (unless they believe they have PC or RS).

The fact that you have a "gun case" does not mean it contains a gun. Police have the legal right to ensure the proper and safe transport of any firearm. However, they have to either see the firearm, or be informed or be made aware of its existance somehow.
Let me think about a way to argue this circumstance... say for example you have a really messy car like tools all over the place and even empty beer cans on the floor. Doesn't this "suspicion" from the tools (possible weapon) and beer cans on the floor (possible intoxicated driver) give them a reason to search? The problem is that any minute detail can give them "reasonable cause" to search. This is what leads to minorities getting searched for no reason. You are a Los Angeles Dodger fan? No you're not! The cop says you're a Los Angeles Crip gang member... as displayed by the blue baseball cap. These things are very unavoidable but also very prevalent during traffic stops. Can't blame the cops too much because when they tell them to step out of the car they comply...
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  #86  
Old 11-11-2010, 3:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
Let me think about a way to argue this circumstance... say for example you have a really messy car like tools all over the place and even empty beer cans on the floor. Doesn't this "suspicion" from the tools (possible weapon) and beer cans on the floor (possible intoxicated driver) give them a reason to search? The problem is that any minute detail can give them "reasonable cause" to search. This is what leads to minorities getting searched for no reason. You are a Los Angeles Dodger fan? No you're not! The cop says you're a Los Angeles Crip gang member... as displayed by the blue baseball cap. These things are very unavoidable but also very prevalent during traffic stops. Can't blame the cops too much because when they tell them to step out of the car they comply...

Tools are tools. Weapons are weapons. Just because a cop sees tools does not give him/her PC to search the vehicle.

Beer cans are very different. Seeing them would probably get the driver cuffed or a field sobriety test administered and the vehicle searched.

Minorities have historically been targeted in urban areas. For example, despite the fact that there is no legal requirement to carry ID except when operating a motor vehicle, people are sometimes stopped while walking and asked to show ID.

EVERYONE should be aware of their rights and stand up for them whenever challenged.
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  #87  
Old 11-11-2010, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
You have a very obvious gun case (Pelican, Gunvault, Glock bag). If a cop sees it and can tell it is indeed a gun case can he/she make you open it? I would think that resistance in this scenario would result in a arrest. Also I believe that if the appearance of a case was obvious then you are obligated to open it or else you could be interfering with investigations. Maybe we should just use backpacks then huh?
Personally I never have anything resembling a gun case visible in my vehicle, not just to avoid a possible LEO question, but if nature calls and I stop and lock the car, a less then honorable person might try to break in and grab said container. Keep a shirt, blanket, coat or even newspaper in your vehicle to cover it. Don't be lazy.

Last edited by Taxidave; 11-11-2010 at 5:41 PM.. Reason: Mis-spell
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  #88  
Old 11-13-2010, 3:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
If you are pulled over for a traffic infraction and a cop asks to search your vehicle or open any containers inside (plain view or not), you can legally refuse that request. There is no legal requirement to volunteer any information about the contents of your vehicle or allow police to search (unless they believe they have PC or RS).

The fact that you have a "gun case" does not mean it contains a gun. Police have the legal right to ensure the proper and safe transport of any firearm. However, they have to either see the firearm, or be informed or be made aware of its existance somehow.
So if they see the gun case in the back seat and ask you if there is a gun in there you can just tell them none of their business? I want to make sure that there isn't, for example, a requirement pertaining to registered assault weapons where you would have to allow the officer to check the numbers or something or allow the officer to verify you are transporting the registered AW properly and that you can just tell them to buzz off and not be violating any laws or rules. Thanks.
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  #89  
Old 11-13-2010, 4:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
Tools are tools. Weapons are weapons. Just because a cop sees tools does not give him/her PC to search the vehicle.

Beer cans are very different. Seeing them would probably get the driver cuffed or a field sobriety test administered and the vehicle searched.

Minorities have historically been targeted in urban areas. For example, despite the fact that there is no legal requirement to carry ID except when operating a motor vehicle, people are sometimes stopped while walking and asked to show ID.

EVERYONE should be aware of their rights and stand up for them whenever challenged.
VC 23223

It's a misdemeanor to have an open container in the drivers area or within reach. Even if you are collecting cans or bottles for the recycle.
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  #90  
Old 11-13-2010, 5:01 AM
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Repeat after me...

"I do not have to say anything to the police, ever. I can keep my mouth closed and doing so is Good For Me."

Utter this mantra to yourself at least 15 times a day until it becomes burned into your brain.

It doesn't matter if you have a dead hooker in the trunk (though if you do, you have other problems) - you do NOT have to inform the officer of that fact. If you are carrying a RAW, you do NOT have to inform the officer of that fact. If you are carrying a ham sandwich, you do not have to inform the officer of that fact.

Once you start talking and telling the officer what's in your car/trunk/body bag/leaky garbage bag, you've opened up the door to a new world of pain. So don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by faterikcartman View Post
So if they see the gun case in the back seat and ask you if there is a gun in there you can just tell them none of their business? I want to make sure that there isn't, for example, a requirement pertaining to registered assault weapons where you would have to allow the officer to check the numbers or something or allow the officer to verify you are transporting the registered AW properly and that you can just tell them to buzz off and not be violating any laws or rules. Thanks.
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  #91  
Old 11-13-2010, 7:21 AM
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Here a few recent cases mentioned over on FourthAmendment.com that might be of interest:

Vehicle frisk for weapon included lockbox

Quote:
The absence of a search warrant did not invalidate the search of Wubbold’s lockbox because, under Long, an officer without a search warrant is permitted “to search a vehicle’s passenger compartment when he has reasonable suspicion that an individual, whether or not the arrestee, is ‘dangerous’ and might access the vehicle ‘to gain immediate control of weapons.’” Arizona v. Gant, 129 S. Ct. 1710, 1721 (2009) (quoting Long, 463 U.S. at 1049).
If you don't exercise your rights and instead choose to tell the officer that you have guns in the car, you are helping him to build a reasonable suspicion like the one described and that can give them grounds for a search, even if you don't consent. Don't answer questions, do this instead.

Where there is PC for a search, the officer can ask for the key to a locked toolbox

Quote:
There was also a padlocked, toolbox type locker in the back passenger section of the vehicle. The officer asked Goff for the key to the padlock, and Goff responded that the officer needed a warrant to search the locker. The officer told Goff that he "didn't want to have to break the lock." Goff responded by telling the officer that the key was on the key ring on the center console. The officer unlocked the locker and searched it. The officer found a pipe and a Tupperware container containing approximately 15 bags of marijuana {your gun that you mistakenly left loaded, and now you are really in hot water}.
That case in KS was really about the Miranda warning (hadn't been given prior to questioning, court decided that it didn't matter). Note that nothing prevents a LEO from asking you for a key/combo to your locked box. It is up to you to know that you DO NOT need to provide a key or combo and stand your ground. Locks and containers are cheap. If they want to search make them work for it. And, the LEO may just be bluffing and really has no intent of cutting your lock off if you don't provide the key/combo.

Keep in mind that LEOs can lie to you about why they want to search, and if you consent based on their lie, it is still a valid search:

Ruse to get consent to look at defendant's computer was not invalid

Always exercise your rights. Never consent.
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  #92  
Old 11-13-2010, 7:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
VC 23223

It's a misdemeanor to have an open container in the drivers area or within reach. Even if you are collecting cans or bottles for the recycle.
FUD:

23223. (a) No driver shall have in his or her possession, while in
a motor vehicle upon a highway or on lands, as described in
subdivision (b) of Section 23220, any bottle, can, or other
receptacle, containing any alcoholic beverage that has been opened,
or a seal broken, or the contents of which have been partially
removed.
(b) No passenger shall have in his or her possession, while in a
motor vehicle upon a highway or on lands, as described in subdivision
(b) of Section 23220, any bottle, can, or other receptacle
containing any alcoholic beverage that has been opened or a seal
broken, or the contents of which have been partially removed.
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  #93  
Old 11-13-2010, 8:00 AM
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http://michellawyers.com/ will also mail you a card for your wallet and stickers for all your cases.
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