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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 11-10-2010, 7:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
[Footnote 13]


What does a container for a kit of burglar tools look like? Do burglars use special bags/cases for their equipment?
You can pick them up at Walmart in the evil-doers isle. There are two good brands, Robem'all and UstealIt. I would not trust any other brand to hold my burglary tools.
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  #42  
Old 11-10-2010, 7:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
[Footnote 13]


What does a container for a kit of burglar tools look like? Do burglars use special bags/cases for their equipment?
a lock pick case is pretty distinctive. maybe because i've seen so many on film/tv.
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  #43  
Old 11-10-2010, 7:55 AM
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Do you guys think that the refusal for a search would lead to an arrest? Or may they test the waters for a while then eventually let you go because they pulled you over for a ticket and nothing else.

I have a problem with this because....

If this is true, then drug dealers could store their drugs in a lock box and when cops pull them over for a "busted light" then they could avoid arrests. Don't let the drug dealers know about this law because no one would ever get arrested/convicted.

I see a problem.
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  #44  
Old 11-10-2010, 8:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
Do you guys think that the refusal for a search would lead to an arrest? Or may they test the waters for a while then eventually let you go because they pulled you over for a ticket and nothing else.

I have a problem with this because....

If this is true, then drug dealers could store their drugs in a lock box and when cops pull them over for a "busted light" then they could avoid arrests. Don't let the drug dealers know about this law because no one would ever get arrested/convicted.

I see a problem.
No one pulled over for a busted light should be getting subjected to a search if nothing illegal is in plain sight.
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  #45  
Old 11-10-2010, 8:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Shiboleth View Post
No one pulled over for a busted light should be getting subjected to a search if nothing illegal is in plain sight.
That is unless you look suspicious, are a minority, but most importantly consent. Right? I'm now understanding why you should never consent even if you are legally carrying a gun. I thought before that if you show them your legal firearm they will let you go. However, now I'm thinking if they decide to put some additional B.S. on you, it's going to be no one's but your own fault.
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  #46  
Old 11-10-2010, 8:56 AM
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Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
From what I gather reading many threads before. If the case looks anything like a guncase then he/she (LEO) has a right to check to see if it is indeed unloaded. To do this you (the gun owner) has to open it. If you refuse he/she may arrest you. If you comply he might let you go (IDEAL OUTCOME) or he might screw you (POSSIBLE OUTCOME). This is why there are 2 ways to go. Take the red pill or the blue pill? Anyone have any text or laws on which way to go in this scenario?
PC 12031 e only applies when an officer KNOWS that there is a gun. If he only suspects that there might be a gun, he has no legal authority to search, and no legal authority to demand a 12031 e check.

As a previous poster said, I may want to carry my sandwich and a pudding cup in an old gun case, using it as my lunch box. I refuse to allow the officer to search the gun case, and get arrested for not allowing him to examine my locked lunchbox, when he forces it open (I will not unlock it) it will not look good for the officer when I sue him for violating my 4th amendment rights, when he finds my sandwich and pudding.
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  #47  
Old 11-10-2010, 9:02 AM
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Never. Ever. EVER. Consent.

There is nothing to be gained by consenting. Nothing. Ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
That is unless you look suspicious, are a minority, but most importantly consent. Right? I'm now understanding why you should never consent even if you are legally carrying a gun. I thought before that if you show them your legal firearm they will let you go. However, now I'm thinking if they decide to put some additional B.S. on you, it's going to be no one's but your own fault.
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  #48  
Old 11-10-2010, 9:29 AM
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Without specific incidents listed, the edited comment was generic 'cop-bashing'. // Librarian
You're kidding, right?
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  #49  
Old 11-10-2010, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kid Stanislaus View Post
You're kidding, right?
Serious as a heart attack.

Specific incidents tied to specific individuals are 'fair game'.

Attributing some characteristic to a large group is perilous.

Examples:

It would be fair to say "All Calgunners have some level of interest in firearms."

It would NOT be fair to say "Interested in firearms? Must be inbred rednecks."
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  #50  
Old 11-10-2010, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by edwardm View Post
Never. Ever. EVER. Consent.

There is nothing to be gained by consenting. Nothing. Ever.
Not entirely true. Consent can lead to a better attitude from the cops, but it's a rather expenseive bit of attitude you pay for. but that's only a short-term gain.

People who willingly give up their rights by small gestures are doomed to lose them eventually, especially when it becomes "the way things are done".

I think it's wrong that people are harassed or scrutinized more thoroughly when they are assertive of their rights. I hate that "you must be up to something" if you don't want a stranger digging through your car. No one should be "suspicious" because they weren't cooperative with an unwarranted/causeless search.

People with "nothing to hide" should be able to hide their Nothing all they want.
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  #51  
Old 11-10-2010, 12:30 PM
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In the big picture, consent does NOT improve your life. The cop's attitude is irrelevant to anything other than intangible feelings that have zero bearing on the legal system and how the legal system will treat you.

I will repeat:

NEVER consent. EVER. It will NOT help you, will NOT bear anything positive and can only hurt you.

If giving consent means the officers treats you like a nice guy (trust me, he's not treating you any different than any other dirtbag out there, right or wrong), and being treated like a nice guy is more important than any other consideration, then you are dumb. And that level of dumb should be punishable (but sadly, it is not).

In case I haven't said it enough -

Shut up. Do not consent. Invoke and maintain your rights.

Period.
The End.
Fin.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Munk View Post
Not entirely true. Consent can lead to a better attitude from the cops, but it's a rather expenseive bit of attitude you pay for. but that's only a short-term gain.

People who willingly give up their rights by small gestures are doomed to lose them eventually, especially when it becomes "the way things are done".

I think it's wrong that people are harassed or scrutinized more thoroughly when they are assertive of their rights. I hate that "you must be up to something" if you don't want a stranger digging through your car. No one should be "suspicious" because they weren't cooperative with an unwarranted/causeless search.

People with "nothing to hide" should be able to hide their Nothing all they want.
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  #52  
Old 11-10-2010, 1:16 PM
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These civil rights situations/discussions would dry up in a big hurry if the courts did one thing: Any time LE is found guilty of violating someone's rights, the first thing they lose is their pensions. Let the victim be the recipient of that LE pension and you would instantly see a whole lotta love and caring about civil rights.

.
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  #53  
Old 11-10-2010, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
These civil rights situations/discussions would dry up in a big hurry if the courts did one thing: Any time LE is found guilty of violating someone's rights, the first thing they lose is their pensions. Let the victim be the recipient of that LE pension and you would instantly see a whole lotta love and caring about civil rights.

.
To lift from another, unrelated thread...

"Son, you've got a better chance of getting pregnant."

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  #54  
Old 11-10-2010, 3:45 PM
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Post it's just tools.

as i get this,
never keep a gun in what looks like a gun case.
never keep any case with in view from out side your car/truck.
keep ALL guns in locked boxes out of view.
keep your car/truck clean.
never consent to any search.

about right

this is why i like my big locked TOOL BOX in the bed of my truck.





.
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  #55  
Old 11-10-2010, 3:58 PM
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my gun case has a rainbow peace sticker and says "i love bono". cops are none the wiser
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  #56  
Old 11-10-2010, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by packnrat View Post
as i get this,
never keep a gun in what looks like a gun case.
never keep any case with in view from out side your car/truck.
keep ALL guns in locked boxes out of view.
keep your car/truck clean.
never consent to any search.

about right

this is why i like my big locked TOOL BOX in the bed of my truck.





.

Toolbox is the best idea I've heard. It kinda excels past the Dora the Explorer Lunchable pack. Will consider it. Thanks.
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  #57  
Old 11-10-2010, 4:17 PM
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I asked my good friend who's an attorney. He has no expertise in firearms related law. His general thoughts are to open it even if you don't legally have to as it's likely the quickest resolution whether or not it is legally required. He thought that I may well be right in not needing to open it. However, he also pointed out that it may cost me $10 K in legal fees to proove I'm right. Mostly his point being, it's possible I could be written up for something which may not be charged or dismissed but it would be annoying to have to deal with and would cost me some time and energy. Based on his general point, I'd just open the case.

FWIW, in 1990 I was carrying firearms in the legal manner back then (unloaded in the car in plain view; there was no trunk in this vehicle) and was pulled over (LEO saw me swerving a bit in on a rainy windy night in my dad's old station wagon with poor handling) thinking I was DUI. He saw the guns and we talked for about 5 minutes and then let me on my way. I was about 22 at the time. He did ask me a bunch of questions outside of the vehicle and was calm about it. I answered them honestly (my friends & I were comming back from an indoor range). I was amazed at how uneventful it was. My uncle, who is an attorney, was once pulled over and firearms came up (I don't remember the details) and opened things up when he didn't need to and it went fine as well.

Then, as now, I comply with the current laws on transporting firearms, and maybe even step it up a notch in terms of doing more than the law requires. I really don't worry if I'm pulled over and it comes up. I will just answer it and be done with it.
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Last edited by Sheepdog1968; 11-10-2010 at 4:23 PM..
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  #58  
Old 11-10-2010, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by edwardm View Post
In the big picture, consent does NOT improve your life. The cop's attitude is irrelevant to anything other than intangible feelings that have zero bearing on the legal system and how the legal system will treat you.

I will repeat:

NEVER consent. EVER. It will NOT help you, will NOT bear anything positive and can only hurt you.

If giving consent means the officers treats you like a nice guy (trust me, he's not treating you any different than any other dirtbag out there, right or wrong), and being treated like a nice guy is more important than any other consideration, then you are dumb. And that level of dumb should be punishable (but sadly, it is not).

In case I haven't said it enough -

Shut up. Do not consent. Invoke and maintain your rights.

Period.
The End.
Fin.

Not sure I completely agree. You were likely pulled over for some other traffic violation. My guess is that consenting may lead to officer's discretion in letting you go with a warning for whatever reason you were pulled over. Not consenting, though legal likley mean you get a ticket for whatever you were pulled over for. Just a thought.
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I find that 90% of the questions asked here have been answered 20 or more years ago by Jeff in hid Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip books.


"Taking a rifle to a gunfight is the equivalent of taking a chainsaw to a knife fight." Lt. Col. Grossman in On Combat (Sec 2, Ch 1)
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  #59  
Old 11-10-2010, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
Toolbox is the best idea I've heard. It kinda excels past the Dora the Explorer Lunchable pack. Will consider it. Thanks.
I suppose a grown man with a Dora lunch box would set off some alarms. But, really, what could the PC be? "Well, he didn't look like a Dora fan at all your honor."
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  #60  
Old 11-10-2010, 4:51 PM
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Oh, and get one of these cards from Jason Davis.

http://www.calgunlawyers.com/Davis_%...way_cards.html
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  #61  
Old 11-10-2010, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
Do you guys think that the refusal for a search would lead to an arrest? Or may they test the waters for a while then eventually let you go because they pulled you over for a ticket and nothing else.

I have a problem with this because....

If this is true, then drug dealers could store their drugs in a lock box and when cops pull them over for a "busted light" then they could avoid arrests. Don't let the drug dealers know about this law because no one would ever get arrested/convicted.

I see a problem.
Fortunately drug dealers are inherently stupid as a group
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  #62  
Old 11-10-2010, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Code7inOaktown View Post
I suppose a grown man with a Dora lunch box would set off some alarms. But, really, what could the PC be? "Well, he didn't look like a Dora fan at all your honor."
Pray I don't get stopped then one of the times my kid leaves her Dora backpack in the truck. I'd be in for a heck of a fight over that one.
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  #63  
Old 11-10-2010, 5:14 PM
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Not sure I completely agree. You were likely pulled over for some other traffic violation. My guess is that consenting may lead to officer's discretion in letting you go with a warning for whatever reason you were pulled over. Not consenting, though legal likley mean you get a ticket for whatever you were pulled over for. Just a thought.
You can disagree, but that's just being dumb.

In the long run (which I said before) consenting gets you NOWHERE. Besides, if an officer pulls you over, 99 times out of 100 he's already made up his or her mind on whether to cite or warn before he/she makes it to your window.

So, if you really feel like being dumb and surrendering your rights in order to not pay a ticket for a moving violation you did most likely commit, feel free.

And then I'll say you're dumb. Why? Because surrendering a right is dumb.
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  #64  
Old 11-10-2010, 5:17 PM
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What's your buddy's State Bar Number? I want to look him up, call, see if that's what he really told you, and then tell him to his face that he is dumb.

What HORRIBLE advice. OMFG. Wow. They gave this guy a license to practice law? Wait, he's not an ADA, is he? About the only member of the bar I'd expect to offer up that advice would be a DA/ADA.

Criminy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheepdog1968 View Post
I asked my good friend who's an attorney. He has no expertise in firearms related law. His general thoughts are to open it even if you don't legally have to as it's likely the quickest resolution whether or not it is legally required. He thought that I may well be right in not needing to open it. However, he also pointed out that it may cost me $10 K in legal fees to proove I'm right. Mostly his point being, it's possible I could be written up for something which may not be charged or dismissed but it would be annoying to have to deal with and would cost me some time and energy. Based on his general point, I'd just open the case.

FWIW, in 1990 I was carrying firearms in the legal manner back then (unloaded in the car in plain view; there was no trunk in this vehicle) and was pulled over (LEO saw me swerving a bit in on a rainy windy night in my dad's old station wagon with poor handling) thinking I was DUI. He saw the guns and we talked for about 5 minutes and then let me on my way. I was about 22 at the time. He did ask me a bunch of questions outside of the vehicle and was calm about it. I answered them honestly (my friends & I were comming back from an indoor range). I was amazed at how uneventful it was. My uncle, who is an attorney, was once pulled over and firearms came up (I don't remember the details) and opened things up when he didn't need to and it went fine as well.

Then, as now, I comply with the current laws on transporting firearms, and maybe even step it up a notch in terms of doing more than the law requires. I really don't worry if I'm pulled over and it comes up. I will just answer it and be done with it.
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  #65  
Old 11-10-2010, 5:32 PM
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Exit the vehicle from the passenger door...
Screw it ! GO out the moonroof!
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  #66  
Old 11-10-2010, 5:42 PM
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Screw it ! GO out the moonroof!
Just reach up and pull the eject handle.
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  #67  
Old 11-10-2010, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by packnrat View Post
as i get this,
never keep a gun in what looks like a gun case.
never keep any case with in view from out side your car/truck.
keep ALL guns in locked boxes out of view.
keep your car/truck clean.
never consent to any search.

about right

this is why i like my big locked TOOL BOX in the bed of my truck.





.
You missed one. Before putting firearms into any vehicle, check, double check, triple check that there is no magazine with rounds/shells in it or a round in the chamber. Then place your firearm in the locked container and lock it. Of course, CCW are exempt from all these.
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  #68  
Old 11-10-2010, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by comblock View Post
You missed one. Before putting firearms into any vehicle, check, double check, triple check that there is no magazine with rounds/shells in it or a round in the chamber. Then place your firearm in the locked container and lock it. Of course, CCW are exempt from all these.
One hopes you mean that it would be fixed-magazine weapons you check so thoroughly, since removable box magazines may contain unexpended ammunition, and be in that same container with the firearm, so long as such magazines are not inserted in the firearm. People vs Clark, 1996: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in..._in_California
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The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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  #69  
Old 11-10-2010, 6:24 PM
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I was in a gun store in oxnard and asked about transporting my rifle. The owner was not sure and pulled out his pocket guide to california forearms laws and what we got from it was that long guns do not have to be locked or anything. You could have your rifles on your gun rack and ammo in your glove compartment with no issues. Now it has been about 6 months so I might be wrong. I actually think that we concluded that they could even be loaded, but I find that hard to believe in this state.
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  #70  
Old 11-10-2010, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by stand125 View Post
I was in a gun store in oxnard and asked about transporting my rifle. The owner was not sure and pulled out his pocket guide to california forearms laws and what we got from it was that long guns do not have to be locked or anything. You could have your rifles on your gun rack and ammo in your glove compartment with no issues. Now it has been about 6 months so I might be wrong.
Nope, all that is right. See also Gun Free School Zones, though.

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Originally Posted by stand125 View Post
I actually think that we concluded that they could even be loaded, but I find that hard to believe in this state.
No. There's a different definition of 'loaded' in Fish and Game Code, but that has limited application, and not to transport.
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  #71  
Old 11-10-2010, 7:05 PM
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No he wasn't being cool with you. He couldn't do anything because it was legal and decided to lengths he was doing you a favor.
I hate to break the bad news to you, but yes an Officer was being cool with me. I was in possession of a switchblade in violation of the law and he let it slide. The look on our faces told each other we both knew I was in violation.

The blade was over 2 inches, it was spring powered, it was in the passenger compartment of the vehicle.

653K- Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor
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Old 11-10-2010, 7:14 PM
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Maybe we should come up with a plain sight curtain system so that if the cop pulls you over, and tells you to get out, 1) all your doors are locked 2) you exit the moonroof 3) right before you exit, you pull the curtain drop, displaying this poster in all windows:

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Old 11-10-2010, 7:39 PM
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Although Gust is in the 9th circuit, I would really like to see more specific case law that takes on the power 12031(e) itself.

Just found an interesting case that referenced 12031. Again from the 9th, but this time from CA and not WA.

United States v Brady (1987)

Haven't had a chance to follow up on the references yet, but I'm sure they will give some more examples of the power of 12031.

Quote:
Section 12031 prohibits carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle in a public place, and subsection (e) authorizes the police to examine a firearm to determine whether it is loaded. Some California courts have held that the police must have probable cause to believe that a firearm is loaded before they may inspect it. See, e.g., People v. Kern, 93 Cal.App.3d 779, 782-83, 155 Cal.Rptr. 877, 879 (1979). However, the prevailing view is that the police may inspect a firearm which they know is in a vehicle, regardless of whether they have probable cause to believe that it is loaded. People v. Azevedo, 161 Cal.App.3d 235, 244, 207 Cal.Rptr. 270, 275-76 (1984) (following People v. Zonver, 132 Cal.App.3d Supp. 1, 183 Cal.Rptr. 214 (1982)); People v. Greer, 110 Cal.App.3d 235, 238-39, 167 Cal.Rptr. 762, 764 (1980); People v. DeLong, 11 Cal.App.3d 786, 791, 90 Cal.Rptr. 193, 195-96 (1970).
So I think there is no question that if an officer actually sees a firearm it can be checked, but is the case enough? I think as mentioned above that saying "oh yeah there is a gun in that guitar case" is probably enough to be justifiably searched.
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  #74  
Old 11-10-2010, 7:52 PM
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Request a free card here:



Tear in case of emergency:



Follow the instructions on the card:



Give the piece you tore off to the law enforcement officer:



The LEO will not likely be happy if you chose this route, but preserving your rights is up to you. Also, document as much as you can about the stop, time, place, witnesses, stated reason for stop, etc.
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Old 11-10-2010, 8:05 PM
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Request a free card here:



Tear in case of emergency:



Follow the instructions on the card:



Give the piece you tore off to the law enforcement officer:



The LEO will not likely be happy if you chose this route, but preserving your rights is up to you. Also, document as much as you can about the stop, time, place, witnesses, stated reason for stop, etc.
Dude, I love you (Not in a homosexual way, yadda yadda).
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Old 11-10-2010, 9:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonDavis View Post
Request a free card here:



Tear in case of emergency:



Follow the instructions on the card:



Give the piece you tore off to the law enforcement officer:



The LEO will not likely be happy if you chose this route, but preserving your rights is up to you. Also, document as much as you can about the stop, time, place, witnesses, stated reason for stop, etc.
Why is this IMPOSSIBLE to find in New York State?
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Old 11-10-2010, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
Why is this IMPOSSIBLE to find in New York State?
And they need it more than we do. Almost.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep7081
My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksandreCz View Post
Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563
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  #78  
Old 11-10-2010, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munk View Post
Exactly... so what if I carry my sandwich and pudding to work in an HK branded case... it was a 2$ lunchbox since it's worthless for protecting a gun.

If you have a metal box that has "Anthrax" written on the side, are you a terrorist? or just a fan of a great band?
hmmm...be kind of interesting to carry a bag of chips in a gun case while keeping my Sig in a Hello Kitty (locking of course) lunchbox.
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Old 11-11-2010, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
One hopes you mean that it would be fixed-magazine weapons you check so thoroughly, since removable box magazines may contain unexpended ammunition, and be in that same container with the firearm, so long as such magazines are not inserted in the firearm. People vs Clark, 1996: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in..._in_California
Correct.
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Old 11-11-2010, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
You have a very obvious gun case (Pelican, Gunvault, Glock bag). If a cop sees it and can tell it is indeed a gun case can he/she make you open it? I would think that resistance in this scenario would result in a arrest. Also I believe that if the appearance of a case was obvious then you are obligated to open it or else you could be interfering with investigations. Maybe we should just use backpacks then huh?
A gun case is a gun case if and only if there's a gun in it.

Unless an LEO knows prior to opening it that there is a gun in it, it is not a "gun case."

The burden of proof is on him/her. S/he has to be able to articulate legal cause for search or for compelling you to open anything.

Unless there is a legally compelling reason to open it, I wouldn't open it.

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