2013 CA State IDPA Championship.

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by Gryff

Nope, it's the rules. They have to draw the line somewhere. And I put the blame entirely on the ammo manufacturers rather than IDPA.

Also remember that if they allow 97pf ammo because it's factory stuff, match staff runs into issues of steel calibration. It's already ridiculously hard to calibrate steel to 105pf if it is a windy day because it keeps falling over. It also means that if I call for a steel calibration verification, I'm probably going to lose because the calibration ammo (which should be demonstrated to be at 105pf) is stronger than the stuff I'm shooting.

I understand the thought and idea behind the rule, I just think that there should be some leniency in how it is enforced for factory ammunition specifically as it discourages shooters from shooters from going above and beyond to shoot sanction events.

For example: Next year, I would like to shoot Nationals, BUG Nationals, Indoor Nationals, and even Puerto Rico if I can talk the wife into it (which shouldn't be too hard). But as a shooter who is willing to travel more than 200 miles to shoot one of their matches I should not have to worry about making the PF with ammo I buy in their locality. I should be able to fly in with my gun(s)/gear, go to the local gun store or other store that sell ammunition pick up 200 rounds off the shelf and be able to compete without having to worry about whether or not the factory ammo I just purchased down the street from, or at the range is gong to make the PF.

If I flew all the way to Puerto Rico, and got DQ'd because I did not make the PF with the ammunition I bought locally in that territory because it was too much of a PITA to bring if from the states IDPAHQ would get more than an ear full from me. But, that's just me being frank.

[jb7706]

Originally Posted by RoundEye

I understand the thought and idea behind the rule, I just think that there should be some leniency in how it is enforced for factory ammunition specifically as it discourages shooters from shooters from going above and beyond to shoot sanction events.

And how would the shooter prove it is factory ammo? What is to stop the shooter from finding sub power factor ammo intentionally and bringing it? There has to be a line somewhere.

Most club level matches are not going to chrono your ammo, there is no real barrier to new shooters there. Once you have decided to shoot a sanctioned match you have also decided to play by the big boy rules, and most new shooters are not going to be there. If your stuff ain't up to snuff then you shoot for no score. If you want to shoot for score then it is not that hard to either find ammo that will make PF, reload your own or contact one of your buddies and have them help you out. I'd happily load some up for anyone that gave me the components or loan it to a friend out of my stash. It boils down to being prepared for the match. I'm not knocking Gryff, he knew there may be issues with his ammo and accepted the risk and was a man about it when it didn't work out for him.

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by RoundEye

I understand the thought and idea behind the rule, I just think that there should be some leniency in how it is enforced for factory ammunition specifically as it discourages shooters from shooters from going above and beyond to shoot sanction events.

For example: Next year, I would like to shoot Nationals, BUG Nationals, Indoor Nationals, and even Puerto Rico if I can talk the wife into it (which shouldn't be too hard). But as a shooter who is willing to travel more than 200 miles to shoot one of their matches I should not have to worry about making the PF with ammo I buy in their locality. I should be able to fly in with my gun(s)/gear, go to the local gun store or other store that sell ammunition pick up 200 rounds off the shelf and be able to compete without having to worry about whether or not the factory ammo I just purchased down the street from, or at the range is gong to make the PF.

If I flew all the way to Puerto Rico, and got DQ'd because I did not make the PF with the ammunition I bought locally in that territory because it was too much of a PITA to bring if from the states IDPAHQ would get more than an ear full from me. But, that's just me being frank.

I still have to stick with "the rules are the rules." The legality of gear is on the shooter. It cannot be put on HQ if you can't find ammo that meets the stated requirements of the sport. It would be different if IDPA's requirements were hyper-specialized, but they aren't. The fact that ammo companies are cutting corners shouldn't mean that IDPA has to drop their requirements to Cowboy Shooter levels.

And personally, as someone who travels across country to compete, if you are spending the $$$ to travel but don't have all of your gear pre-arranged, you're setting yourself up to fail.

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by Gryff

And personally, as someone who travels across country to compete, if you are spending the $$$ to travel but don't have all of your gear pre-arranged, you're setting yourself up to fail.

But, what if the location you're traveling too does not allow for the personal importation of ammunition, so you must source it locally?

Again, I understand the idea of the rule, as I am a very black and white kind of guy. I just think it can be implemented better to be more "shooter friendly/encouraging". If all you can get is ammo that shoot 97PF, than that 's all you can get, and they should allow you to run what you brung.

Just my personal $0.02.

[PM720]

I don't disagree with the "rules are the rules" approach but how is one to know for sure? Like I said before, my stuff ran 136PF on my chrono and 135 on another and just squeaked by at the match. Roundeye's ammo ran 944fps out of his 4" barrel on my chrono but just squeaked in at 700 or so at the match. Even though it may not be practical there should be a way to access the MATCH chrono on Friday or the day of the match outside of the "official" testing so that a competitor can be sure they are legal. JMHO. It will be interesting to see what happens once I get my Pact MKIV calibrated.

Scott

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by RoundEye

But, what if the location you're traveling too does not allow for the personal importation of ammunition, so you must source it locally?

Then I wouldn't go. But before I made that decision, I would do a search for shooters who have shot the match in the past and inquired about how they handled it. But showing up and buying whatever I could find on the LGS shelf wouldn't be part of my plan.

Originally Posted by PM720

I don't disagree with the "rules are the rules" approach but how is one to know for sure? Like I said before, my stuff ran 136PF on my chrono and 135 on another and just squeaked by at the match. Roundeye's ammo ran 944fps out of his 4" barrel on my chrono but just squeaked in at 700 or so at the match.

That's a LOT of variation. You might want to take consider a different powder. Only time I've seen that level of variation was when I made up ammo in NorCal, and then shot in Florida in 95F temps with 98% humidity. Even then, I didn't see a 250+ fps loss.

Personally, I chrono'd my ammo in Richmond the weekend prior. I was hoping our chrono was off, but Sac's ended up providing identical results.

Access to the chrono the day before is a good idea, but difficult logistically since that is the day when the staff is shooting. That kind of access, though, would mean that you need to bring additional ammo that has a hotter load, since the point of chrono-ing in advance is so you can change ammo if your initial batch fails. Otherwise, it is sort of pointless to chrono the day before.

[John M]

In response to the post about stage 2 and blowing the tape off the target. This only happened with 3 shooters all match and happened because the shooter stuck the muzzle of their gun past the swinger. It was the muzzle blast. A couple of these shooters left powder residue on the target which is consistent with the muzzle being to close. Cutting out the down 0 would prevent this from happening, but since the shooter was "supposed"
to back up one step, it was not an issue.

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by John M

In response to the post about stage 2 and blowing the tape off the target. This only happened with 3 shooters all match and happened because the shooter stuck the muzzle of their gun past the swinger. It was the muzzle blast. A couple of these shooters left powder residue on the target which is consistent with the muzzle being to close. Cutting out the down 0 would prevent this from happening, but since the shooter was "supposed"
to back up one step, it was not an issue.

Yeah, like I mentioned, I was amazed how many good shooters on our squad didn't step back and ended up waving their gun around like a drunken monkey trying to avoid the swinger.

You ran that stage well, John, and I liked that you emphasized that 2-3 people needed to be ready with tape to reset to the target. Cutting the -0 zone out would have been a viable option, even with people backing up, but I don't think that it would have saved any substantial amount of time.

[rmatt]

And now you know why the #1 way people cheat is at chrono.

Also I was a gun waving monkey on stage 2, you can see it clearly in my video.

[reckoner]

I thought the match was run very smoothly. All the SOs look like they had their roles down cold and really kept things moving quickly.

My only regret about the match was that there were no glorious FTDRs to witness.

[tenclip]

What a great event! Serious thanks for all the effort put forth by everyone involved. There were things that could have been improved yes but then again unless all of us got no points down and no penalties, we all have room to improve as well.

It takes a LOT of work to put on an event of any scale and the club has many rules they must follow and while we might get a few PE's in the CoF, for the club the PE cost might be a loss of future events. So I give them the credit for using making the best decisions that used available resources, played ball with the shooting range, and balance fun with fairness with the lean into protecting the future hosting of the event in the eyes of HQ.

That said, I certainly came away having some clear things I need to work on and I am very fortunate to have had these areas exposed in me by the thoughtful stage designers. What are these personal weak areas? Doesn't matter to you because at the next major event I assure you they will no longer be weaknesses of mine.

So then what would I change about the event for next year? Not much. I am sure a second unofficial chrono for shooter use or even a second official tech inspection area will be (or was) debated ahead of time, but those take work, resources, staff and certainly come at the cost of one of the shooting bays and one less stage, so that's for the club to decide not me.

However if pressed to be selfishly demanding and request at least one thing that would have turned a great experience into an amazing one, it would have to be the food options. The club partnering with a trailered-in BBQ vendor selling grilled yumminess at lunch would have truly put it over the top for me. Of course then it would have opened up the debate whether the more accurate shooters chose tri-tip or chicken, and whether the faster shooters picked slaw or potato salad.

[jb7706]

Originally Posted by tenclip

However if pressed to be selfishly demanding and request at least one thing that would have turned a great experience into an amazing one, it would have to be the food options. The club partnering with a trailered-in BBQ vendor selling grilled yumminess at lunch would have truly put it over the top for me. Of course then it would have opened up the debate whether the more accurate shooters chose tri-tip or chicken, and whether the faster shooters picked slaw or potato salad.

I think the idea of hot food has merit. Upside of sandwiches is that they are ready and portable. But having hot food would be a good thing IMO. John, Scott or I will make sure we get that to the president. We have already started planning for next year.

[9mmepiphany]

Originally Posted by reckoner

My only regret about the match was that there were no glorious FTDRs to witness.

I kept waiting for someone to show up to the Ice House stage with a headband light

For anyone interested.
1. I brought my own handheld flashlight (2x the lumens) on Saturday and tried it out on the stage between squads...the extra illumination didn't make any difference in locating the targets.
2. However, a WML does make a difference, if you have it indexed with your sights

[ES13Raven]

This is how I ran that stage, and I picked up the targets pretty quickly:

[reckoner]

Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany

I kept waiting for someone to show up to the Ice House stage with a headband light

I was halfway expecting someone to just turn the floodlight on.

[TATB]

Concerning ammo. What about “official” ammo in popular calibers from some respectable company which is properly tested well before the match?

[sjm9877]

I like the idea of official match ammo available for purchase. It could be pre ordered as part of the application. No crono required, one less thing to think about. I only use factory ammo for competition. I just trust that the advertised volosity is correct. It would suck to get an underpowered batch and fail.

[PM720]

Originally Posted by Gryff

That's a LOT of variation. You might want to take consider a different powder. Only time I've seen that level of variation was when I made up ammo in NorCal, and then shot in Florida in 95F temps with 98% humidity. Even then, I didn't see a 250+ fps loss.

The AVERAGE across 6 rounds was 935 so not a lot of deviation. Like I said, it may be my chrono but I ran ammo across another one a few weeks before that was within 20fps of mine. It just makes it hard when you are trying to do the right thing and still get bit as I am sure you can attest!

Scott

[ES13Raven]

Some pictures are up:

http://www.sdps-idpa.org/2013/folio-gallery/gallery.php

[tenpercentfirearms]

I thought it was a well run and straight forward match. I too had my gun hang up going through the shoot house door, but I think it was the second door inside, the SO was behind me so he didn't see my muzzle swing left. However, my muzzle swinging left wouldn't have been an issue as it would have still been pointing down range. It dive give me a slight pause, but I just kept on going and no one said anything. I was more worried about my buddy that went through early saying he was worried about DQing from sweeping his left hand through the door so I was leading hard with my pistol.

I shot like crap, but my only PE was on the last stage of the day when I was in the car and at the buzzer I grabbed my pistol and was pointed at the threat target waiting for the no shoot to come up so I didn't accidentally shoot it. Then it clicked the no shoot wasn't coming because I didn't open the door. I safely opened the door and resumed. I almost asked for a start over, but I doubt John would have given it to me. Then I double FTNed. I sucked because I sucked. Not because it was a bad match.

The only complaint I had was more rule nitpicking and not a legit complaint. On the restroom stage, I believe I could have entered the open on the disappearing zombie in stall 2 because there was no visible target. Then if he appeared as I was in the open, I could enage him without the use of cover. When I asked about this, the SOs response was I couldn't do that because no one else had done it that way.

Personally I find that a weak reasoning. I am supposed to know the rules and follow them. If you enter the open and there is no target, you can engage it without seeking cover if it appears. No where in the course description did it stipulate you had to wait for the disappearing target to appear and certainly if we were truly being "shoot them as the appear" you wouldn't know there was a target behind that stall until it appeared.

Basically I was told that outsmarting the stage by knowing the rules was not allowed because no one else had thought of it. I find that weak.

Not the end of the end of the world and it certainly didn't cost me 23rd place in SSP SS.

[John M]

Wes you are partially correct. I too got a cover call as soon as I opened the door and before the target appeared. Technically, the cover call should not have come until the target showed itself. If however, you are in the open and the target presents itself and you do not use available cover you should get an automatic PE.

[Gryff]

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms

The only complaint I had was more rule nitpicking and not a legit complaint. On the restroom stage, I believe I could have entered the open on the disappearing zombie in stall 2 because there was no visible target. Then if he appeared as I was in the open, I could enage him without the use of cover. When I asked about this, the SOs response was I couldn't do that because no one else had done it that way.

TPF,

I'm going to disagree with you for three reasons. First, in a self-defense situation where you know bad guys are present somewhere, you aren't going to open a door and totally expose yourself to the unknown on the other side of the door. You are going to use cover as you evaluate the situation, and since that hidden target basically appeared instantaneously, you didn't have time to move out from cover unless you never stopped at it in the first place.

Two, even if you were in the middle of the doorway, cover was 12 inches to your right or left. And the rules are clear about the use of cover.

1.3.2.6. Shooting from behind cover is a basic premise of IDPA. Competitors will use all available cover in a CoF.

Finally, the requirement was stated in advance for every group. You knew it was required since the point of cover was verbalized by the SO during the walk-through.

It's good to try to game IDPA, but it isn't gaming when you do something in direct contradiction to the procedure described in the walk-through. That's just poking the bear when you are a one-legged man.

Now, if you want to really argue, I'll leave you with this...why do you need cover when you are engaging zombies?

[tenpercentfirearms]

Originally Posted by Gryff

TPF,

I'm going to disagree with you for three reasons. First, in a self-defense situation where you know bad guys are present somewhere, you aren't going to open a door and totally expose yourself to the unknown on the other side of the door. You are going to use cover as you evaluate the situation, and since that hidden target basically appeared instantaneously, you didn't have time to move out from cover unless you never stopped at it in the first place.

My recollection of that stage is different than yours. There was enough time to open the door, see no zombie, and start moving. We had one shooter that opened the door, got a cover call, stepped back and looked down, then got one shot off before the Zombie was gone. There was time.

Originally Posted by Gryff

Two, even if you were in the middle of the doorway, cover was 12 inches to your right or left. And the rules are clear about the use of cover.

I think you are using selective quotations. I am at school and can't look at the IDPA rule book. Doesn't it state you do not have to wait to engage a target if you are out in the open when it presents itself. You know the whole idea of "Hold on Mr. Bad Guy, I am not going to shoot at you until I seek cover. Please wait for me to get over behind this door jamb and then I will shoot at you."

Originally Posted by Gryff

Finally, the requirement was stated in advance for every group. You knew it was required since the point of cover was verbalized by the SO during the walk-through.

How do I know they said that for every group? What if they didn't cover it at all? So basically the rules are what the SO says the rules are despite the rules saying otherwise?

Originally Posted by Gryff

It's good to try to game IDPA, but it isn't gaming when you do something in direct contradiction to the procedure described in the walk-through. That's just poking the bear when you are a one-legged man.

That is why I didn't push that one any futher. I just did as they asked.

Originally Posted by Gryff

Now, if you want to really argue, I'll leave you with this...why do you need cover when you are engaging zombies?

Another reason it was an erroneous call and cover shouldn't have even mattered on that stage. And again, I am at school and the results are blocked, how many PEs were there on that stage?

Again, not the end of the world. A fun stage and a great match over all. Just not my scores.

[rmatt]

I don't think a single shooter at a major match has ever said, "i did that perfect, to my very best ability, and wouldn't change a thing."

next major, south mountain showdown in pheonix. i'll be there!

ps-the trophys at this match were really nice.

[dobek]

If you look at PEs on the bathroom stage - don't count mine - my PE was I started to unlatch the 3rd stall while I was hitting the slide lock on my reload - so technically I moved forward unloaded.

My bad ( it is a BAD habit of mine - I am very comfortable reloading on the move - in a street fight you should be moving or shooting)

Steve

[fullrearview]

Looking at the photos, I can't believe I'm the only shooter who doesn't wear a vest...

Staff was telling me to get my cover garment all day!

[AUstate]

Originally Posted by fullrearview

Looking at the photos, I can't believe I'm the only shooter who doesn't wear a vest...

Staff was telling me to get my cover garment all day!

I don't wear a vest either.

Never knew we had so many hardcore fly fishermen!

[9mmepiphany]

I always wear a denim workshirt...the one I wore on Friday had a panda on it

[PM720]

Originally Posted by AUstate

I don't wear a vest either.

Never knew we had so many hardcore fly fishermen!

Photographer man!

Scott

[AUstate]

Originally Posted by PM720

Photographer man!

Scott

Haha. I forgot about that!

[rmatt]

My idpa vest has a UPSA patch on it, how's that for blasphemy?

[missiondude]

Originally Posted by rmatt

My idpa vest has a UPSA patch on it, how's that for blasphemy?

Rowdy, you are a rebel...

[PM720]

Finally got my videos uploaded. Enjoy!

http://m.youtube.com/channel/UCl-caD.../videos?view=1

Scott

[ES13Raven]

Anyone know what make & model guns were used to chrono everyone's ammo?

[Scotty]

Springfield 1911 in 9mm, Para P16-40, don't remember who built the 1911 in 45. The 9 and 40 were mine. The 9 had maybe 300 rounds through the barrel, the 40 had quite a few rounds on it.

[ES13Raven]

Originally Posted by Scotty

Springfield 1911 in 9mm, Para P16-40, don't remember who built the 1911 in 45. The 9 and 40 were mine. The 9 had maybe 300 rounds through the barrel, the 40 had quite a few rounds on it.

Thanks. I was curious if a 5" barrel was used.

[John M]

The staff from the 2013 CA State IDPA Championship had a meeting last night and we decided we will host the 2014 State Championship next October. (Pending the AC approval). We also reviewed all the shooter feedback we received and plan on making next years match even better.

[missiondude]

Originally Posted by John M

The staff from the 2013 CA State IDPA Championship had a meeting last night and we decided we will host the 2014 State Championship next October. (Pending the AC approval). We also reviewed all the shooter feedback we received and plan on making next years match even better.

You guys did a fantastic job this year. The only things I could add would be maybe have a couple food trucks on location for lunch, and have the random prizes given by drawing so that you did not end up with something you may not want or need. In my case I was stoked to get the bag that had the Safariland holster cert as I was going to order one anyway. Had I won a bunch of primers, not so much since I do not reload. The prizes could have been done while we were waiting for scores.

[John M]

There are several trains of thought regarding the door prizes. This is one topic we discussed and may make changes.

First, to call off 170 names and wait while each shooter goes up, looks around and finally decides what they want takes a lot of time. Besides, it still doesnt mean there is something up there every shooter wants!

One suggestion was a dry erase board where shooters can write down an item they dont want for possible trade.

My thought for this match was, many matches have done away with the prize table, and our prizes, combined with the bailout bag, gave the shooter a good bang for their buck. In your case, you got either a $50 or $100 gift cert (we had both).

Anyway, we want to make next years match better and are listening to the shooters.

Food options was another thing we discussed.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Originally Posted by John M

There are several trains of thought regarding the door prizes. This is one topic we discussed and may make changes.

First, to call off 170 names and wait while each shooter goes up, looks around and finally decides what they want takes a lot of time. Besides, it still doesnt mean there is something up there every shooter wants!

One suggestion was a dry erase board where shooters can write down an item they dont want for possible trade.

My thought for this match was, many matches have done away with the prize table, and our prizes, combined with the bailout bag, gave the shooter a good bang for their buck. In your case, you got either a $50 or $100 gift cert (we had both).

Anyway, we want to make next years match better and are listening to the shooters.

Food options was another thing we discussed.

I got a Glock armorer's screwdriver from Brownells. My buddy got a $20 knife. We were as happy as a camel on hump day! Keep the prizes the way they are. That is exactly how they do it at Richmond and it works.

The whiteboard for trade is a good idea, but you can also ask people too. It might encourage us to talk to one another!

I thought the match was fine. I just shot like crap.