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Firearms Accessories: Holsters, Safes, Lights & more If it locks up, carries, fits on to or cleans up your firearms, discuss it here.

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  #1  
Old 12-12-2013, 8:35 AM
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Default CA law regarding display of firearms in home

O.K. once again I am confused, which apparently is getting easier to do as I age. I own 2 guns safes and most of my firearms are stored in those safes save for 3 bolt action WW2 rifles that I display on the walls of my Den/Mancave a Springfield 1873 Trapdoor and a shotgun in my bedroom. I have cable locks on the bolt rifles on the wall and a trigger lock on the shotgun (which is loaded). A friend of mine who is a Cop told me yesterday that this was a violation of CA law and that all weapons had to be in the CA DOJ approved safes and there was no if's and's or but's about it.

I have read the laws to my ability and I did not think I was in violation. Can someone set me straight?
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Old 12-12-2013, 8:39 AM
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I'd ask your LE friend. Since he was so positive he MUST have a specific code in mind.

he might be referring to SB108, another of yee's bills, regarding loaded firearms left in the house "unsecured". The debate would be over your loaded shotgun, with the trigger lock......... is that a violation of the "unloaded" component?

Question is, did this become an actual law?

Last edited by sarge1572; 12-12-2013 at 8:49 AM..
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Old 12-12-2013, 8:46 AM
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Thats one of the problems, he says that the law is so vague it will allow an officer to interpret it the way he wants to given his mood or the situation and it could go bad for me. I am not sure what is going on with LE folks but I have known this guy for over 25 years, in the Corps and as a Cop and his tone was nice but tense.
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Old 12-12-2013, 8:50 AM
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Another example of LE not knowing the law.
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Old 12-12-2013, 8:53 AM
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<3 the Wiki: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Storage_and_Children

Got kids around and is anything loaded?
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Old 12-12-2013, 8:59 AM
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Ask him to read you the PC code. If he can't do that then how can he be so "positive" about it?
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Old 12-12-2013, 8:59 AM
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Shotgun is loaded with trigger lock, as I understand that it is not a violation as long as no kids have access to it....or am I wrong?
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Old 12-12-2013, 9:01 AM
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PC 25105 linked above, says that "criminal storage" does not apply if the gun has a device on it which renders it inoperable. That trigger lock should qualify. Looks pretty crystal clear to me.
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Old 12-12-2013, 9:08 AM
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Probably will not talk to him for a while
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Old 12-12-2013, 9:19 AM
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That seems pretty straight forward to me. I will send it to him to see what kind of reaction I get. I appreciate everyone's time, thanks!
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Old 12-12-2013, 9:19 AM
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Friend =

Storage and Children
Quote:
Penal Code 25100

CHAPTER 2. Criminal Storage of Firearm [25100. - 25130.]
( Chapter 2 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

25100.
(a) Except as provided in Section 25105, a person commits the crime of
“criminal storage of a firearm of the first degree” if all of the
following conditions
are satisfied:

(1) The person keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are
under the person’s custody or control.

(2) The person knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to
gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child’s parent
or legal guardian.

(3) The child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes death or
great bodily injury to the child or any other person.

(b) Except as provided in Section 25105, a person commits the crime of
“criminal storage of a firearm of the second degree” if all of the
following conditions
are satisfied:

(1) The person keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are
under the person’s custody or control.

(2) The person knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to
gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child’s parent
or legal guardian.

(3) The child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes injury,
other than great bodily injury, to the child or any other person, or
carries the firearm either to a public place or in violation of Section
417.
Quote:
Penal Code 25105

Section 25100 does not apply whenever any of the following occurs:

(a) The child obtains the firearm as a result of an illegal entry to any
premises by any person.

(b) The firearm is kept in a locked container or in a location that a
reasonable person would believe to be secure.

(c) The firearm is carried on the person or within close enough
proximity thereto that the individual can readily retrieve and use the
firearm as if carried on the person.

(d) The firearm is locked with a locking device, as defined in Section
16860, which has rendered the firearm inoperable.

(e) The person is a peace officer or a member of the Armed Forces or the
National Guard and the child obtains the firearm during, or incidental
to, the performance of the person’s duties.

(f) The child obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a
lawful act of self-defense or defense of another person.

(g) The person who keeps a loaded firearm on premises that are under the
person’s custody or control has no reasonable expectation, based on
objective facts and circumstances, that a child is likely to be present
on the premises.
eta: oops, didn't notice but SCZ already linked to it.
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Last edited by readysetgo nekkid!; 12-12-2013 at 9:22 AM..
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Old 12-12-2013, 9:28 AM
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I printed it off and will post it in my Den, thanks much!
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:18 AM
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Hand the kids parents a form they must sign granting permission to 'gain access to a firearm'. Covered even with no locks under 25100(a)(2) and 25100(b)(2).

25105(g) is remarkably hard to understand. I read it so many times I can no longer read it - must be missing something.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
Hand the kids parents a form they must sign granting permission to 'gain access to a firearm'. Covered even with no locks under 25100(a)(2) and 25100(b)(2).

25105(g) is remarkably hard to understand. I read it so many times I can no longer read it - must be missing something.
Welcome to California. Nothing is easy to understand. If you're confused, that's a actually a good sign.

25105(g) would cover places like the "money counting room" at a casino. Places where there are access requirements that mean no children are going to be there.

I you really want to be more confused, please check out section 25120. It imposes a "waiting period" on the arrest a person for violating 25100. My deputies once arrested a woman who kept a loaded shotgun behind her sofa (she was a gang member and you can imagine why it was there). Her young son (around seven years old) started playing with the shotgun and blew a large hole through his hand. Deputies arrested the mother for 25100. While doing the booking, we learned that there was a seven day waiting period to make the arrest. If there had not been a plethora of other charges to hold her on, we would have been required to release her, and then to go back after a week an re-arrest her for the violation.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:06 PM
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It's if you can reasonably assume an unauthorized person would gain acces AND do something bad with it
If you have no kids, leaving a any gun unattended and loaded in your own home is not a problem, if the kid next door breaks in and steals it and shoots someone it's his problem criminally, not yours
On the other hand, if I leave my loaded gun on the counter and my kid shoots someone with it, I'm in trouble, however if he breaks into the safe it locked drawer I'm not criminally liable
My reading/opinion and the way I operate
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:16 PM
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But the phrase is "has no reasonable expectation" so I'm not allowed a reasonable expectation that kids won't wander into otherwise locked high security areas. Seems like what the code says ...

If I'm in a locked and otherwise secured area I damned well do have a reasonable expectation that unauthorized folk (and even children) won't be wandering about.
25105
(g) The person who keeps a loaded firearm on premises that are under the
person’s custody or control has no reasonable expectation, based on
objective facts and circumstances, that a child is likely to be present
on the premises.

'Has a reasonable expectation that no children ...' would make sense but 'has no reasonable expectation' makes no sense ...


Wait, I think I got it ... in such a controlled situation there is no reason to believe children can gain access. One "has no reasonable expectation ... that a child is likely to be present". Like in a bar?
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Quote:
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Last edited by Epaphroditus; 12-12-2013 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerman View Post
Probably will not talk to him for a while
Good idea,
And remember he is an acquaintance and not a friend as so many people here call them.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:37 PM
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There is no reasonable expectation that an unauthorized person will gain access to my firearms in my house, if they do, they are breaking the law which I cannot control
That's the cops job
If those cops are going to try and contend that I should 'expect' to be burglarized, (thus having a reasonable expectation of unauth access) they are doing a piss poor job

If I don't have kids
And any visiting kids gain access to my guns in my room where they should t be, I have a reasonable expectation that visitors should not be in my bedroom, so its their problem not mine
I might find myself feeling responsible morally of course
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
There is no reasonable expectation that an unauthorized person will gain access to my firearms in my house, if they do, they are breaking the law which I cannot control
That's the cops job
If those cops are going to try and contend that I should 'expect' to be burglarized, (thus having a reasonable expectation of unauth access) they are doing a piss poor job

If I don't have kids
And any visiting kids gain access to my guns in my room where they should t be, I have a reasonable expectation that visitors should not be in my bedroom, so its their problem not mine
I might find myself feeling responsible morally of course
The problem with such a line of thinking is 'reasonable' is determined by the judge and/or jury and not you.
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We have the time and the hammers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown
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Old 12-12-2013, 1:03 PM
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In short, no, one is not required by law to keep firearms locked up in your home.
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Old 12-12-2013, 1:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Welcome to California. Nothing is easy to understand. If you're confused, that's a actually a good sign.

25105(g) would cover places like the "money counting room" at a casino. Places where there are access requirements that mean no children are going to be there.

I you really want to be more confused, please check out section 25120. It imposes a "waiting period" on the arrest a person for violating 25100. My deputies once arrested a woman who kept a loaded shotgun behind her sofa (she was a gang member and you can imagine why it was there). Her young son (around seven years old) started playing with the shotgun and blew a large hole through his hand. Deputies arrested the mother for 25100. While doing the booking, we learned that there was a seven day waiting period to make the arrest. If there had not been a plethora of other charges to hold her on, we would have been required to release her, and then to go back after a week an re-arrest her for the violation.
It also covers people who don't have children or grandchildren and who don't have children over to their house for any reasons.

My friends don't have children, I don't have children, my nearest relative with a child is in Texas. I have a reasonable expectation that no children will gain access to my firearms. If any child does gain access, it is because they broke into my house.
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Old 12-12-2013, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
The problem with such a line of thinking is 'reasonable' is determined by the judge and/or jury and not you.
There are certain guidelines to the jury I'm sure, and the prosecution would have to prove "I" had that reasonable expectation beyond reasonable doubt

Now
With that all in mind
Recently a police officers firearm, on his motorcycle was accidentally discharged by a child
In my opinion, he is guilty of those charges, he was with kids, intentionally, and he allowed a kid to get to that point, this charge should certainly be applied to that situation
Alternatively, him being parked at the station and a kid walking up and the same accident occurring, my opinion would differ
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Old 12-12-2013, 2:02 PM
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Default CA law regarding display of firearms in home

Retracted
Post not applicable to topic

Last edited by Tripper; 12-12-2013 at 3:11 PM..
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Old 12-12-2013, 2:56 PM
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I like these two parts the best.

Quote:
A friend of mine who is a Cop told me yesterday that this was a violation of CA law and that all weapons had to be in the CA DOJ approved safes and there was no if's and's or but's about it.

Quote:
Thats one of the problems, he says that the law is so vague it will allow an officer to interpret it the way he wants to given his mood or the situation and it could go bad for me.

LOL.

Sounds like he's got an ego and will always be right.... even when contradicts himself.
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Old 12-13-2013, 8:17 AM
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A "friend", LE or not, who goes around spouting off your transgression of real or imagined authoritarian laws is either trying to exhort some sort of control over you or is simply a wannabe jack-booted douche. In either case, he's no friend. Dump him. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-13-2013, 2:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
There is no reasonable expectation that an unauthorized person will gain access to my firearms in my house, if they do, they are breaking the law which I cannot control
That's the cops job
If those cops are going to try and contend that I should 'expect' to be burglarized, (thus having a reasonable expectation of unauth access) they are doing a piss poor job

If I don't have kids
And any visiting kids gain access to my guns in my room where they should t be, I have a reasonable expectation that visitors should not be in my bedroom, so its their problem not mine
I might find myself feeling responsible morally of course
I can see where that one might get sticky. Is said bedroom locked?

It could be construed that since they're visiting, presumably with your permission, that you should have foreseen the possibility that they might wander into your bedroom.

OP, something tells me your "Friend" is not going to like being corrected on something he fancies himself to be an expert on.
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Old 12-13-2013, 3:41 PM
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My reading of current law is that even if you have children you are not required by law to keep guns secure. However, if you do not and the child hurts somebody with the gun, then you can be charged.

Basically, it's not illegal until things goes bad.
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Old 12-13-2013, 3:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
Another example of LE not knowing the law.
And possibly doing something illegal himself as a result of his ignorance. This is why I don't trust LEOs. Too many out there that paint with a broad brush.

"he says that the law is so vague it will allow an officer to interpret it the way he wants to given his mood or the situation and it could go bad for me."
Just what we need, cops interpreting "vague" laws based on mood.
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Old 12-13-2013, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67goat View Post
My reading of current law is that even if you have children you are not required by law to keep guns secure. However, if you do not and the child hurts somebody with the gun, then you can be charged.

Basically, it's not illegal until things goes bad.
Is carried into a public place "things gone bad"?

25100(b)(3)
(3) The child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes injury,
other than great bodily injury, to the child or any other person, or
carries the firearm either to a public place or in violation of Section
417.
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Quote:
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Old 12-13-2013, 4:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerman View Post
O.K. once again I am confused, which apparently is getting easier to do as I age. I own 2 guns safes and most of my firearms are stored in those safes save for 3 bolt action WW2 rifles that I display on the walls of my Den/Mancave a Springfield 1873 Trapdoor and a shotgun in my bedroom. I have cable locks on the bolt rifles on the wall and a trigger lock on the shotgun (which is loaded).
Alternatively, for the bolt actions, you could simply remove the firing pins from the bolts.
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Old 12-13-2013, 4:09 PM
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is there such a thing as a DOJ approved safe? What about a DOJ approved gun cabinet?
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Old 12-15-2013, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by surreptitious View Post
is there such a thing as a DOJ approved safe? What about a DOJ approved gun cabinet?
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/gunsafe

They have a list of models to check. Safes and cabinets are there.
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Quote:
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