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  #1  
Old 12-31-2016, 7:44 PM
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Default Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

Quote:
{x) "Overall length of less than 30 inches" with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently, attached muzzle device, if so ecquiped to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement- the owner must. also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.
It seems to me that this may be a new definition requiring the muzzle device to be permanently attached to reach the 30" oal requirement.

This becomes problematic for bull pup owners that thought they were going to go featureless. To do so you would need to pin and weld your muzzle device.

This seems like the DOJ is trying to sneak some stuff in that was previously defined otherwise. This appears to give bullpup owners no choice but to register.
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Old 12-31-2016, 7:55 PM
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I see it as a problem for the Tavor people, but AUG people with 20" barrels should be good.

What other bullpups are out there have the removable extension?
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  #3  
Old 01-02-2017, 7:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SkylineGTR06 View Post
I see it as a problem for the Tavor people, but AUG people with 20" barrels should be good.

What other bullpups are out there have the removable extension?
FN PS90

So a PS90 with the "fake can" on the end would be a no go (without the can the overall length is under 30-inches)?

The shroud is held on for two set screws. I guess an easy fix would be to spot weld them?

Would be easy to drill out once moved out of state and would be permanent. Right?
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Old 01-02-2017, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
FN PS90



So a PS90 with the "fake can" on the end would be a no go (without the can the overall length is under 30-inches)?



The shroud is held on for two set screws. I guess an easy fix would be to spot weld them?



Would be easy to drill out once moved out of state and would be permanent. Right?


High heat solder would work.


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  #5  
Old 01-05-2017, 6:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
FN PS90

So a PS90 with the "fake can" on the end would be a no go (without the can the overall length is under 30-inches)?

The shroud is held on for two set screws. I guess an easy fix would be to spot weld them?

Would be easy to drill out once moved out of state and would be permanent. Right?
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
High heat solder would work.


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How about just epoxy in the heads of the set screws that secure the fake can/muzzle extension on the PS90?

Is there any published verbiage from CADOJ that defines acceptable methods for "permanently" attaching a muzzle device?
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Old 01-05-2017, 6:14 AM
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Default Bullpups and DOJ overall length definition...

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Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
How about just epoxy in the heads of the set screws that secure the fake can/muzzle extension on the PS90?



Is there any published verbiage from CADOJ that defines acceptable methods for "permanently" attaching a muzzle device?


Page 2-5471 D that's barrel length but I'm to lazy to read it all while at work.


Edit: Page 4-5471 X

https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.ne...egulations.pdf


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  #7  
Old 01-05-2017, 6:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
How about just epoxy in the heads of the set screws that secure the fake can/muzzle extension on the PS90?

Is there any published verbiage from CADOJ that defines acceptable methods for "permanently" attaching a muzzle device?
Yes and no. In the section it talks about how to measure for 30" OAL minimum, it does not say what is an approved method for permanent attachment of the muzzle device.

However, in the section on how barrel length is calculated, it does have approved methods for permanent attachment of the muzzle device.

"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel- seam welding hi-temperature(1100° F silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."

What does this mean? Well, I would take it to mean the approved methods are the same, since they call them out. As usual, it is poorly written and unclear on some level, but being conservative and playing it safe is a good rule.
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Old 01-02-2017, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
FN PS90

So a PS90 with the "fake can" on the end would be a no go (without the can the overall length is under 30-inches)?

The shroud is held on for two set screws. I guess an easy fix would be to spot weld them?

Would be easy to drill out once moved out of state and would be permanent. Right?


This is what I'm trying to figure out too. Do we need to have the shroud on when taking pics for registration making it 30" and after we receive approved registration we can remove the shroud making it 26"?

Or as you say we have to keep that shroud and make it permanent?
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  #9  
Old 12-31-2016, 8:00 PM
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"Overall length of less than 30 inches"... What does that even mean? Sounds to me that you can go less than 30". If they want a minimum of 30", wouldn't they write, "Overall length of a minimum of 30 inches"?


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  #10  
Old 12-31-2016, 8:59 PM
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OP,
Where is this text from?
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  #11  
Old 12-31-2016, 9:15 PM
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OP,
Where is this text from?
From the new regulations that CA DOJ BOF released yesterday.


11 CCR 5471
For purpose of Penal Code section 30515 and this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
(x) "Overall length of less than 30 inches" with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, if so equipped, to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement the owner must also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.)
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  #12  
Old 12-31-2016, 9:19 PM
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Default going to have to get a new barrel of pin it

Sounds like you would have to make it permanent. But I always thought that was just for 16'' minimum barrel length, not OAL.
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  #13  
Old 04-04-2018, 7:56 AM
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Default THANK YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
From the new regulations that CA DOJ BOF released yesterday.


11 CCR 5471
For purpose of Penal Code section 30515 and this Chapter the following definitions shall apply:
(x) "Overall length of less than 30 inches" with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, if so equipped, to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement the owner must also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.)
It is hugely helpful when citations are provided. THANK YOU Quiet
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  #14  
Old 12-31-2016, 9:01 PM
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It's confusing as hell. Previously AW was defined as 26" in length, and because of CA SBR laws you can't go underneath that. They always have measured the opposite of what the feds do. Federal law defines that the way to measure is at it's maximum length, i.e. you unfold or make the firearm adjust to it's maximum length. CA DOJ said measure when everything is at it's minimum, meaning folded or collapse,etc.

Maybe we need to ask the question more directly: what does the new language about length mean? Do you have to meet the definition of length without the muzzle attachment? Does it also mean mean that you can use the muzzle device in the length equation if you permanently attach it, but not if you don't?

I thought AW was 26" for the new "category" of AW? Am I wrong and it's still 30"?
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Old 12-31-2016, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
It's confusing as hell. Previously AW was defined as 26" in length, and because of CA SBR laws you can't go underneath that. They always have measured the opposite of what the feds do. Federal law defines that the way to measure is at it's maximum length, i.e. you unfold or make the firearm adjust to it's maximum length. CA DOJ said measure when everything is at it's minimum, meaning folded or collapse,etc.

Maybe we need to ask the question more directly: what does the new language about length mean? Do you have to meet the definition of length without the muzzle attachment? Does it also mean mean that you can use the muzzle device in the length equation if you permanently attach it, but not if you don't?

I thought AW was 26" for the new "category" of AW? Am I wrong and it's still 30"?
Since 01-01-2000, CA assault weapons laws have had a minimum 30" overall length requirement for semi-auto centerfire rifles.

CA SBR/SBS laws have a minimum 26" overall length requirement.
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Old 12-31-2016, 9:19 PM
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So this means that you have to meet 30" length without a detachable muzzle device. If you perm attach then you can use it in the overall length.
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Old 12-31-2016, 9:19 PM
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The text is from the "new" DOJ proposed AW regs.
The 30" minimum OAL (feature) has always been part of the CA AW law, however, I didn't think it required a permanent mzlle device to reach it.
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Old 12-31-2016, 9:22 PM
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Default broken logic

They may as well state the the stock has to be permanently affixed then as well, same logic.
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  #19  
Old 12-31-2016, 9:25 PM
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In the past...
Feds required permanently attached muzzle devices to be included in a firearm's overall length.
CA did not require permanently attached muzzle devices to be included in a firearm's overall length.

With the new regulations, CA is adopting what the Feds required for measuring overall length in regards to muzzle devices.
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Old 12-31-2016, 9:27 PM
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Seems to me...

If you have a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle, then muzzle device needs to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.

If you have a semi-auto centerfire rifle with a "bullet button" maglock and are registering it as an assault weapon, then the muzzle device does not need to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.
^After it has been registered as an assault weapon, there is nothing in the new regulations that will prevent the removal of the muzzle device to reduce the overall length to 26" or greater.
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Old 01-01-2017, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Seems to me...

If you have a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle, then muzzle device needs to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.

If you have a semi-auto centerfire rifle with a "bullet button" maglock and are registering it as an assault weapon, then the muzzle device does not need to be permanently attached to meet the minimum 30" overall length requirement.
^After it has been registered as an assault weapon, there is nothing in the new regulations that will prevent the removal of the muzzle device to reduce the overall length to 26" or greater.


Assume for featureless you are correct. Measurements are from end of stock to end of barrel or permanently affixed device.

So yesterday, those with featureless Tavors, AUGs, FS2000 that had an unpinned extended muzzle brake were legal.

Today they wake up to find they are in possession of an assault weapon?

So with 2 days notice on a holiday weekend, DOJ gets to make them in violation.

So if they fix after today, longer barrel, fixed device, longer stock, have they have still violated the law. Where does the law allow a grace period to fix? It seems no matter what they do now at the stroke of midnight are f'd

What charge?

1.) Possession
2.) Manufacturing - not sure - would that be ex-post facto? They manufactured prior if they did the work (converted from BB to featureless prior 1/1/17)

My assumption is the definitions have the force law as of today.




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Old 01-01-2017, 8:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexDD View Post
Assume for featureless you are correct. Measurements are from end of stock to end of barrel or permanently affixed device.

So yesterday, those with featureless Tavors, AUGs, FS2000 that had an unpinned extended muzzle brake were legal.

Today they wake up to find they are in possession of an assault weapon?

So with 2 days notice on a holiday weekend, DOJ gets to make them in violation.

So if they fix after today, longer barrel, fixed device, longer stock, have they have still violated the law. Where does the law allow a grace period to fix? It seems no matter what they do now at the stroke of midnight are f'd

What charge?

1.) Possession
2.) Manufacturing - not sure - would that be ex-post facto? They manufactured prior if they did the work (converted from BB to featureless prior 1/1/17)

My assumption is the definitions have the force law as of today.
This guy gets it. This was something that was legally possessed between 1/1/2001 and 12/31/2016 that did not meet the (new) definition of an AW that is now an AW due to the regulation.

Seems to me that the DOJ would have to allow the registration of what was a previously featureless SACF rifle (without a BB) because it now has an OAL <30".
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  #23  
Old 01-02-2017, 7:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
In the past...
Feds required permanently attached muzzle devices to be included in a firearm's overall length.
CA did not require permanently attached muzzle devices to be included in a firearm's overall length.

With the new regulations, CA is adopting what the Feds required for measuring overall length in regards to muzzle devices.
Except CA is using the measurement of 30 inches instead of 26 that the feds use.. right?
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  #24  
Old 12-31-2016, 9:54 PM
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Prior to the 2017 regulations, it was my understanding that your BB rifle had to be at least 30" in length to avoid being classified as an AW. Therefore if it was under 30", it would be considered an AW, and had to be greater than 26" to avoid being an SBR. Incorrect?
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pacrimguru View Post
Prior to the 2017 regulations, it was my understanding that your BB rifle had to be at least 30" in length to avoid being classified as an AW. Therefore if it was under 30", it would be considered an AW, and had to be greater than 26" to avoid being an SBR. Incorrect?
That is correct.

SBR = overall length of less than 26"
AW (semi-auto centerfire rifle) = overall length less than 30" to 26".
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
That is correct.

SBR = overall length of less than 26"
AW (semi-auto centerfire rifle) = overall length less than 30" to 26".
Thanks for the clarification Q.
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:18 PM
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What is the opinion on registering a saiga 12 with bb and later converting to a bullpup stock, still with bb?
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kayakbriang View Post
What is the opinion on registering a saiga 12 with bb and later converting to a bullpup stock, still with bb?
Barrel length needs to be 18" or greater.
Overall length needs to be 26" or greater.
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:22 PM
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So what does this all mean for the FN PS 90? They have 4" barrel extensions to make them 30" that are held on with a sleeve and set screws. Do I need to find some way to permanently attach it?

I was really hoping to ditch the extension and horrible BB after registering.
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by b18rexracer View Post
So what does this all mean for the FN PS 90? They have 4" barrel extensions to make them 30" that are held on with a sleeve and set screws. Do I need to find some way to permanently attach it?

I was really hoping to ditch the extension and horrible BB after registering.
If it doesn't meet 30" without it than yes.
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by b18rexracer View Post
So what does this all mean for the FN PS 90? They have 4" barrel extensions to make them 30" that are held on with a sleeve and set screws. Do I need to find some way to permanently attach it?

I was really hoping to ditch the extension and horrible BB after registering.
If you make it featureless, than you will need to permanently attach the barrel extension so that it makes the minimum 30" overall length.

If you register it as an assault weapon, then after it becomes a RAW; you need to keep the "bullet button" maglock + 10 round magazine, but it appears you can remove the barrel extension as long as the overall length is 26" or greater.
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Old 01-01-2017, 5:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
If you make it featureless, than you will need to permanently attach the barrel extension so that it makes the minimum 30" overall length.



If you register it as an assault weapon, then after it becomes a RAW; you need to keep the "bullet button" maglock + 10 round magazine, but it appears you can remove the barrel extension as long as the overall length is 26" or greater.


How does this work if we need to send pictures of the rifle to be registered as RAW with the 30" OAL and muzzle break to meet compliant now but later take it off once registered? I thought you can't alter your rifle from the original picture you send into the DOJ when registering? Just wondering. Thanks.


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  #33  
Old 01-01-2017, 5:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
How does this work if we need to send pictures of the rifle to be registered as RAW with the 30" OAL and muzzle break to meet compliant now but later take it off once registered? I thought you can't alter your rifle from the original picture you send into the DOJ when registering? Just wondering. Thanks.


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I don't know where people are getting that idea. All it says in the new Regs is that you can't change out the mag release (even though they argue a BB is just as fast as a regular mag release). People were buying lowers like crazy during the month of December and the DOJ knows this. I don't know where people got the idea they could register a stripped lower. It doesn't meet the definition of the new law.

Personally I think the pics are more for proof that you own a now registrable AW and not just a lower or parts kit. Like current AW's, you can do whatever you want to it.

People forget that when the CA 2000 AW registration took affect, the Federal assault weapons ban was in effect. If you didn't own a pre-ban AW, you were limited to two features under Fed. law. When that expired in 2004, all those CA registered fixed stocked AR's quickly had collapsible stocks and flash hiders installed. Still within the definition of the CA assault weapon.

So I don't see how the CA DOJ can limit you to what you can do with your firearm after registration. Did anyone keep their off roster single shot pistol a single shot after they picked it up? Also something registered with the DOJ to conform to the law, and than quickly changed and still conforms to the law.

Again, all my opinion.
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Old 01-01-2017, 6:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Zyralius View Post
How does this work if we need to send pictures of the rifle to be registered as RAW with the 30" OAL and muzzle break to meet compliant now but later take it off once registered?

I thought you can't alter your rifle from the original picture you send into the DOJ when registering?
You can do anything which isn't prohibited by law or regulation, and only replacing the magazine release is forbidden by the proposed 11 CCR 5477.

Quote:
5477. Registration of Assault wapons Pursuant to Peanl Code Section 30900(b)(1) Post-Registration Modification of Registered Assault Weapons, Prohibition.
(a) The release mechanism for an amunition feeding device on an assault weapon registered pursuant to Penal Code section 30900, subdivision (b)(1) shall not be changed after the assault weapon is registered
At this point the pictures are just required to prevent people from registering stripped lowers.

5477 is a tactical attempt to make poorly written law function as legislators wanted and strategic push to expand the California executive branch's legislative power.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 01-01-2017 at 6:12 AM..
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Old 01-01-2017, 6:09 AM
Zyralius Zyralius is offline
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
You can do anything which isn't prohibited by law or regulation, and only replacing the magazine release is forbidden by the proposed 11 CCR 5477.







At this point the pictures are just required to prevent people from registerring stripped lowers.


Still undecided. Anyone know someone in Sacramento that can drill, pin and weld my brake on my Tavor?


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Old 01-01-2017, 6:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
You can do anything which isn't prohibited by law or regulation, and only replacing the magazine release is forbidden by the proposed 11 CCR 5477.



At this point the pictures are just required to prevent people from registering stripped lowers.

5477 is a tactical attempt to make poorly written law function as legislators wanted and strategic push to expand the California executive branch's legislative power.

Well said

The CADOJ wants as much information as possible

The guys who bought 26 lowers in Dec, will need to show they are complete and functional "all at the same time" by Dec 31st, 2016 to register as AW's in 2017

CA Law usually never states what is allowed, only what is not allowed

LEO's will not have a photograph of the AW, only a serial number to reference
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Old 01-01-2017, 6:12 AM
Iggy_M Iggy_M is offline
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
If you make it featureless, than you will need to permanently attach the barrel extension so that it makes the minimum 30" overall length.

If you register it as an assault weapon, then after it becomes a RAW; you need to keep the "bullet button" maglock + 10 round magazine, but it appears you can remove the barrel extension as long as the overall length is 26" or greater.

So what if our gun is 30" without the muzzle device? Like my Ar anf Ak. If i go featurless i need to weld/pin it?
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Old 01-01-2017, 6:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Iggy_M View Post
So what if our gun is 30" without the muzzle device? Like my Ar anf Ak. If i go featurless i need to weld/pin it?


If already 30" without muzzle brake you should be good to go. This mainly pertains to bullpup as they are now changing it that if you don't register it, you will have to have at least 30" OAL without muzzle device. This was never a issue before 2017. As long as the brake makes the rifle 30" and your barrel it at least 16" it didn't need to be permanently attached. It's when you had a 14.5" barrel then it would as it needs to be 16" barrel OAL in CA.


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Old 03-21-2018, 5:41 PM
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So what does this all mean for the FN PS 90? They have 4" barrel extensions to make them 30" that are held on with a sleeve and set screws. Do I need to find some way to permanently attach it?

I was really hoping to ditch the extension and horrible BB after registering.


On the FN PS 90 you may remove the muzzle extension after you get your AW letter.



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Old 03-29-2018, 2:51 PM
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Okay this the third time I've got an INCOMPLETE notice for the bullet button on my Tavor:
Thank you for submitting your application. The photo provided for Bullet button photo does not meet the necessary requirements to register your firearm as an assault weapon. Please review your photo and make sure all markings are legible before you resubmit. Refer to California Code of Regulations, title 11, section 5474(c) for more information:
I think they just aren't familiar with the design. Any idea what they want to see?
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