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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by roostersgt View Post
Seems many posters here seem to think their armed presence would be a benefit to the kids, employees and already present school cops. That implies far more than self defense. That implies armed intervention and response to something they are in no way trained or prepared for and is cause for concern. The public and police do not want their children's safety further jeapardized. Not hard to understand at all and seems reasonable. Referring only to sb707 here.
IMHO if the possibility of several people, unknown because of CCW, are armed on a campus, is that not somewhat of a deterrent?

On the other hand a possible shooter knowing that no one is armed on a campus, does that not provide an incentive to carry out their shooting spree on a school campus.
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  #122  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:01 PM
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You never asked my occupation sparky. I'm a conductor for a freight railroad. Currently on an industrial freight switching job. It's fairly common knowledge, I've posted about my job more than once. My job is plenty dangerous. Railroaders get injured and killed every year.

Keep talking, it's a train wreck I'm actually enjoying.
I must have missed this earlier. So, your vast experience as a train guy somehow qualifies you to make LEO / CCW recommendations and question / ridicule veteran officers opinions??? Are you serious? This is the definition of total arrogance and being a know it all. This is enjoyable. Might as well ask the opinion of my gardner next. It would be just as valuable.
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  #123  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:06 PM
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I must have missed this earlier. So, your vast experience as a train guy somehow qualifies you to make LEO / CCW recommendations and question / ridicule veteran officers opinions??? Are you serious? This is the definition of total arrogance and being a know it all. This is enjoyable. Might as well ask the opinion of my gardner next. It would be just as valuable.
I don't need to be a cop to have an opinion on ccw. That's a ridiculous position. Is your position that gardeners and trainmen cannot have a valid, and differing stance on self defense and concealed carry? That's elitism at its worst.
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  #124  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:08 PM
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I'd prefer no body except uniformed, or readily recognizable officers be armed on grade school campuses. I don't believe your right to ccw trumps a kids right to be safe and you can chose whether or not to visit a campus. You have A choice, the parents and kids do not. I'd also support prohibiting carrying at amusement parks. Far too many ways for weapons to be lost and their use in such densely populated areas make carrying and using them essentially moot. Check the state of Texas' restrictions for ccw. They seem reasonable to me and are more restrictive than what CA presently has , yet nobody there complains and that's in very conservative and pro gun Texas.
Yes, because only uniformed armed officers are completely safe on a school campus with children present.

http://ktla.com/2013/10/23/3-student...l-safety-demo/
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  #125  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:10 PM
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IMHO if the possibility of several people, unknown because of CCW, are armed on a campus, is that not somewhat of a deterrent?

On the other hand a possible shooter knowing that no one is armed on a campus, does that not provide an incentive to carry out their shooting spree on a school campus.
There are cops on campus in Cali and I don't know how many school campuses you've been on lately, but they don't allow parents / visitors to just walk around, CCW, or not. Most schools have fences and doors completely encapsulating them. Are you suggesting you could be just walking around on a campus, or loitering with your CCW, just wandering the halls, or? What kind of heroic scenario are you envisioning?
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  #126  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:13 PM
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I don't need to be a cop to have an opinion on ccw. That's a ridiculous position. Is your position that gardeners and trainmen cannot have a valid, and differing stance on self defense and concealed carry? That's elitism at its worst.
Didn't say that at all. You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know. I've said it before, just because you know how to hammer a nail, and have watched home improvement shows on tv, does not mean you have the skills, or know how to build anything.

Last edited by roostersgt; 07-02-2015 at 9:16 PM..
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  #127  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:15 PM
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There are cops on campus in Cali and I don't know how many school campuses you've been on lately, but they don't allow parents / visitors to just walk around, CCW, or not. Most schools have fences and doors completely encapsulating them.
You obviously live in some other California. Next time you visit Orange County, I'll personally walk you through several school grounds any time day or night.
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  #128  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:16 PM
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Where was the school officer at Sandy hook, and do school shooters obey the law?
Better yet, where was the SRO for Columbine High School? Did the police rush in to save the kids while the incident was in progress...
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  #129  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:16 PM
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Didn't say that at all. You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know.
You trained cops were so good at responding to Sandy Hook that...everyone died!
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  #130  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:22 PM
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Didn't say that at all. You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know. I've said it before, just because you know how to hammer a nail, and have watched home improvement shows on tv, does not mean you have the skills, or know how to build anything.
If I am physically attacked, am I allowed to resist if I "do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event"? Or should I call the cops and then relax and enjoy being beaten while waiting to the professional response team?
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  #131  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:25 PM
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The short answer is they have a very homogenous population. Not a lot of racial tension, few gangs and an abundance of very law abiding group of very religious folks called Mormons. They, and their high morals dominate every town, city and government office, and I mean dominate.

My fears may be entirely unjustified, who knows, certainly not you, not for certain anyway. I don't make laws and have yet to asked by the legislature for any input regarding any law in this state, so what you get from me is just my opinion. An opinion based upon nearly 30 years of doing a job that deals directly with human nature and its failures, not its successes. I'm not negative, just fully aware of what people are capable of doing under the best of circumstances, and the worst.
My family is from Utah and the majority of them still live there. You are ignorant.
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  #132  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:27 PM
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My family is from Utah and the majority of them still live there. You are ignorant.
Ignorant? How so?
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  #133  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:29 PM
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If I am physically attacked, am I allowed to resist if I "do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event"? Or should I call the cops and then relax and enjoy being beaten while waiting to the professional response team?
Please take your meds,or stop drinking before posting. We are discussing CCW on school grounds and those who think their presence would somehow be of benefit, rather than potentially create more problems. Think SB707.

Last edited by roostersgt; 07-02-2015 at 9:40 PM..
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  #134  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:29 PM
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Didn't say that at all. You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know. I've said it before, just because you know how to hammer a nail, and have watched home improvement shows on tv, does not mean you have the skills, or know how to build anything.
Bull!

Cops are reactionary, it's the nature of the beast. Armed citizens are the first line of defense, and I'd rather there be armed citizens, able to respond, than unarmed citizens forced to cower in fear and wait for the police.

You act like its rocket science to confront one or more armed men killing unarmed innocents. Like there would be some big shoot/no shoot question. What would be the difficult call there?
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  #135  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:38 PM
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Bull!

Cops are reactionary, it's the nature of the beast. Armed citizens are the first line of defense, and I'd rather there be armed citizens, able to respond, than unarmed citizens forced to cower in fear and wait for the police.

You act like its rocket science to confront one or more armed men killing unarmed innocents. Like there would be some big shoot/no shoot question. What would be the difficult call there?
If it involved a classroom full of kids and the shooter is not actively murdering people?? Yes, if you escalated the situation due to your lack of training and experience, again yes. If your over reaction etc,,, resulted in a hostage situation in addition to deaths, again yes. Nothing involving a complex situation like a school shooter scenario is like you apparently believe it to be. For your scenario to end successfully, the shooter would have to be passing you in the hall, all alone and literally tell you his intentions, ignoring why the heck you're there in the first place.

Last edited by roostersgt; 07-02-2015 at 9:41 PM..
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  #136  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:38 PM
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Originally Posted by roostersgt View Post
Didn't say that at all. You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know. I've said it before, just because you know how to hammer a nail, and have watched home improvement shows on tv, does not mean you have the skills, or know how to build anything.
Just quoting the WTF mess this post is. Cops are the only ones trained and experienced enough? Really?
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You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know.
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  #137  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:44 PM
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Just quoting the WTF mess this post is. Cops are the only ones trained and experienced enough? Really?
To handle and deal with such a scenario as a school shooting? Yes, that's exactly what LEO's have been training and preparing for since Sandy. Active shooter training and drills on campus are taking place continuously. Who do you think is a well prepared and trained to handle it? CCW'ers???? The Navy SEALS??
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  #138  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:51 PM
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If it involved a classroom full of kids and the shooter is not actively murdering people?? Yes, if you escalated the situation due to your lack of training and experience, again yes. If your over reaction etc,,, resulted in a hostage situation in addition to deaths, again yes. Nothing involving a complex situation like a school shooter scenario is like you apparently believe it to be. For your scenario to end successfully, the shooter would have to be passing you in the hall, all alone and literally tell you his intentions, ignoring why the heck you're there in the first place.
So you'd have people be unarmed and vulnerable, due to your lack of faith that they could handle your completely improbable, made up situation.


Of all the school shootings that have been in the news since Columbine -- which would have been worse if a CCW holder had been there?

Edit: and in your previous post you referenced Sandy, I can only assume you meant Sandy Hook. How could a CCW holder have made that worse?
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  #139  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:54 PM
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There are cops on campus in Cali and I don't know how many school campuses you've been on lately, but they don't allow parents / visitors to just walk around, CCW, or not. Most schools have fences and doors completely encapsulating them. Are you suggesting you could be just walking around on a campus, or loitering with your CCW, just wandering the halls, or? What kind of heroic scenario are you envisioning?
Now you're just being obtuse. You are rude, condescending, immature and the kind of LEO that creates the negative opinions and mistrust of LEOs that is growing in today s society. The "scenario"? Say there were an event that include parents and children, or even simply parents dropping off or picking up kids from school. I could not imagine a random parent wandering school grounds as a pseudo vigilante, taking it upon themselves to patrol the school.

I posted a story about a motor officers rifle being discharged on a playground. Perhaps you have an example of a similar incident involving someone with a CCW. Do we really need to revisit the DEA agent who discharged is weapon into his foot at an event at a school? You know the guy, "I am the ONLY one in this room professional enough... BANG" The he goes for another gun. He is not even in a stressful situation and he shoots himself.
Sell your fantasies elsewhere, history is not on your side. Seems LE is a more dangerous armed element on school campuses.

Look at my former posts regarding LE, you'll see where I stand.
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  #140  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:59 PM
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Officer's are the only ones experienced and trained enough to keep kids safe.

Officer shoots 4 year old in the leg while attempting to shoot her dog...

http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/...ly-claims.html

Oklahoma Police Kill 5-Year Old Boy While Shooting at Snake

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/08...-at-snake.html

Tell us again how police keep kids safe, but are in some kind of extreme danger with a CCW'er around.
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You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know.
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  #141  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:04 PM
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To handle and deal with such a scenario as a school shooting? Yes, that's exactly what LEO's have been training and preparing for since Sandy. Active shooter training and drills on campus are taking place continuously. Who do you think is a well prepared and trained to handle it? CCW'ers???? The Navy SEALS??
Columbine happened in April 1999, Sandy Hook happened in December 2012. With roughly 13 years to be well prepared and trained, what exactly did the police do to help these kids? Write police reports?
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You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know.
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  #142  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:06 PM
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To handle and deal with such a scenario as a school shooting? Yes, that's exactly what LEO's have been training and preparing for since Sandy. Active shooter training and drills on campus are taking place continuously. Who do you think is a well prepared and trained to handle it? CCW'ers???? The Navy SEALS??
Actually, Hands Down The Seals. Your statement just exposed your massively deluded ego.
In such a scenario, I can not imagine anyone choosing LE over The Seals. To even propose that a LE SWAT team is better trained than The Seals is insane. These men have incredible focus, discipline, split second decision making skills, and rumor has it, they are all decent shots.

I am now beginning to think you may be one of those candidates that slipped through the cracks when it came to the psych evaluation.
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  #143  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:08 PM
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Columbine happened in April 1999, Sandy Hook happened in December 2012. With roughly 13 years to be well prepared and trained, what exactly did the police do to help these kids? Write police reports?
They came up with supporting SB 707, well, after the fact and I mean well after the fact.
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  #144  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:10 PM
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I must have missed this earlier. So, your vast experience as a train guy somehow qualifies you to make LEO / CCW recommendations and question / ridicule veteran officers opinions??? Are you serious? This is the definition of total arrogance and being a know it all. This is enjoyable. Might as well ask the opinion of my gardner next. It would be just as valuable.
Using your own "logic", you have no qualifications to voice any opinions about anything having to do with schools, or the safety of students, since you are not a teacher.
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  #145  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:22 PM
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Didn't say that at all. You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know. I've said it before, just because you know how to hammer a nail, and have watched home improvement shows on tv, does not mean you have the skills, or know how to build anything.
It had been a while, thanks for the new sig line material, I had to edit it a bit to meet the character requirements, but still kept the insightful content.
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You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus. CCW holders, gardeners and yes, trainmen, do not posses the experience, training or expertise in responding to an event such as Sandy. That you can't grasp that is lost on me. Perhaps that's why you're better suited in your present employment. You don't understand what it means to provide for the publics safety. You just don't know.
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  #146  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:22 PM
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You need to be a cop with lots of experience to keep children safe on a school campus.
Actually, Deputy Fife, teachers and other school staff have a daily responsibility to keep students safe on a school campus.

Your ignorance appears to be growing.
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  #147  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:24 PM
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I am now beginning to think you may be one of those candidates that slipped through the cracks when it came to the psych evaluation.
I'm leaning towards nepotism as the excuse for him having a job.
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  #148  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:28 PM
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I'll just leave this video of a highly trained LEO from an elite Federal Agency.

Who also happens to actually be inside a school classroom full of kids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHEOSyMqug

"This is a Glock Fotay, I'm the only one in this room "professional enough" to carry a Glock Fotay."

Oh Hell, you already know the rest.


Last edited by pacrat; 07-02-2015 at 10:30 PM..
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  #149  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:29 PM
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Please take your meds,or stop drinking before posting. We are discussing CCW on school grounds and those who think their presence would somehow be of benefit, rather than potentially create more problems. Think SB707.
So, if I am attacked on the school grounds, may I resist, if I am not a highly trained cop?

Those cops who think they are the salt of the earth look very pathetic, in fact.
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Old 07-02-2015, 10:34 PM
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No, Austin and Houston have been overrun with liberal idiots, much like Portland and Seattle. Thats just in the big cities. Utah has a very small population and virtually no crime, even in Salt Lake City. You should consider moving there if their school carry laws are so agreeable to you. Hello, this is Cali. so I couldn't care less what Utah does, or doesn't approve of and neither should you. Utah crime, or anything else, is seldom in the news.
Perhaps there is less crime in Utah because cops in Utah are better at doing their jobs than you and your "bring a gun to a place where they are banned, and then drop it on the ground for a kid to pick up" coworkers?
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Old 07-02-2015, 10:39 PM
enegue enegue is offline
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If this thread does anything useful, it shows us that there are some cops, Sergeants even, that are pretty immature, childish, and go to forums to start conflict by saying inflammatory things. And there are intelligent cops who are way more mature here as well.

roostersgt says ridiculous stuff all the time, all you have to do is read his/her other posts. Don't fall for it. It's pointless to engage. I can see how it can be fun stirring up trouble because it's so easy here, but doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Last edited by enegue; 07-02-2015 at 10:42 PM..
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Old 07-02-2015, 10:49 PM
retiredAFcop retiredAFcop is offline
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If you think you received any meaningful training that has prepared you to determine an appropriate response to something as complex as a school shooting scenario, you're a completely arrogant and dangerous jerk off, and people are rightly concerned about your type being armed on campus.
Once locked in the classroom with my students, it would not be difficult for me to shoot any unauthorized, armed intruder that broke through a door or window. Range of about seven yards or less, target in a "fatal funnel", Good knowledge of what is behind the doors, windows and walls (classrooms, open space, dumpsters, etc.) in order to make good "backdrop" assessments.

In fact, since I am a teacher, am there every day, and know who "belongs" on campus, I have less of a chance of accidentally shooting a student or staff member than a cop who may be "assigned to the school", but who is not on campus daily.

My part in protecting my students would not be very "complex" at all, and in the case of a lone attacker, would end the threat.

The same would be true of one of the "PTA mom's" who volunteer on campus on a daily basis.

Unfortunately, being armed at work just isn't an option for most of us - and you want to make it even harder for a teacher, school staff members, or parent volunteer to be able to defend the students with anything more lethal than whatever blunt instrument they can find in the classroom.
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  #153  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:54 PM
riderr riderr is offline
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If this thread does anything useful, it shows us that there are some cops, Sergeants even...
More than that, he poses as pro-2A and pro-CCW. I can't even imagine what anti-2A cops look like.
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  #154  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:56 PM
454CA 454CA is offline
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I was just going to sit back and watch, as the thread showcased one biased opinion. I'm not LE, I just need to say the LEO that I know are by and large FOR the rights of the people to carry and to take action when lives are in the balance. There is a LE element which may take a similar view as our sgt. who is of course entitled to an opinion, he may find little agreement though. The idea of training and experience trumping the ability for armed persons to take measured action, deadly force in response to deadly force or the threat, Well if you subscribe to that idea then you had better call the FBI HRT because everyone knows only they can handle the possible hostage senario and negotiation you just proposed, no other LE or anyone else could do the right thing as they don't have enough training.
A armed person who is willing to take on an active shooter is actually only putting one person in harms way and that person is themselves. They have not been trained well enough to hold officer safety above all else.

P.S.
The DHS active shooter handbook states ' as a last resort engage the shooter and attempt to disable them.' this directive is aimed at civilians under attack by an armed assailant. What would be the best way to execute this action: with bare hands, a stapler, or a firearm?

Last edited by 454CA; 08-21-2015 at 12:14 PM.. Reason: Clarity
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  #155  
Old 07-03-2015, 12:31 AM
roostersgt roostersgt is offline
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I'm now done with this thread. Way too many people with inflated egos and delusions of heroics here. Good luck and take care. Enjoy each others vast experience and camaraderie in all things gun / CCW related. You're the experts here and know it all, with your vast amounts of courage, training and experience. I feel like I've been in a Call of Duty, or some other FPS type of forum here. Wow,,,,just wow....
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  #156  
Old 07-03-2015, 1:56 AM
Kowan Kowan is offline
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Sad to say, roostersgt with his elitist thinking is why the uninformed think the anti-2nd Amendment law makers have "our" best interests in mind with their agenda.

Go to an average USPSA match and watch the majority of LEO members being out shot by majority of members there.
With their LEO "training" and non typical LEO gun enthusiasm to actually compete in a match, they are average at best in most cases.

It's hard not to equate their poor performance when the news reports numerous shots fired to stop a criminal in his tracks.
When accuracy isn't there with no real threat, it doesn't magically appear when the threat is real.
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  #157  
Old 07-03-2015, 7:07 AM
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Originally Posted by roostersgt View Post
I'm now done with this thread. Way too many people with inflated egos and delusions of heroics here. Good luck and take care. Enjoy each others vast experience and camaraderie in all things gun / CCW related. You're the experts here and know it all, with your vast amounts of courage, training and experience. I feel like I've been in a Call of Duty, or some other FPS type of forum here. Wow,,,,just wow....
Whoever called you Deputy Fife was spot on with the description. I can just picture your subordinates rolling their eyes at your comments and your boss constantly cleaning up your messes. I sure hope you have adult supervision around you because you (and the rest of us) sure need it. I hope I never find myself in Rancho Murrieta
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Old 07-03-2015, 9:07 AM
retiredAFcop retiredAFcop is offline
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Originally Posted by roostersgt View Post
I'm now done with this thread. Way too many people with inflated egos and delusions of heroics here. Good luck and take care. Enjoy each others vast experience and camaraderie in all things gun / CCW related. You're the experts here and know it all, with your vast amounts of courage, training and experience. I feel like I've been in a Call of Duty, or some other FPS type of forum here. Wow,,,,just wow....
There's really just been one delusional person with an inflated ego in this thread, and now you are leaving.

I feel sorry for the citizens who call 911, hoping for a real cop to help them, and get you instead.
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Old 07-03-2015, 9:27 AM
riderr riderr is offline
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Considering the attitude shown, it actually becomes quite clear why LE associations support gun control measures, while demand exempt status for their members.
Note, he was pro-2A cop.
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Old 07-04-2015, 11:14 PM
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Try that in Cali today. Try robbing a bank wearing armor and see what happens. LE has adapted for those incidents and trained extensively for such incidents. Our schools now have officers assigned to each one. Try visiting one before making such an uninformed comment, or at least check a few websites.
Not true.

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Originally Posted by roostersgt View Post
Since it keeps being brought up, I will provide you with proof that Cali schools have had assigned armed police officers ON CAMPUS since the sandy Hook NEW JERSEY INCIDENT which was almost 3000 miles from here. And since most of those making the "no cops"on campus" argument are from the LA basin, I've given you the link to the largest SCHOOL LEA in Cali. There are also many many others for you folks who don't reside in the huge district, but I'm sure most are covered just with this one simple link that took all of a minute to locate and post.

http://www.laspd.com/about.html
This website applies only to LAUSD. Again, not true.
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Originally Posted by roostersgt View Post
There are cops on campus in Cali and I don't know how many school campuses you've been on lately, but they don't allow parents / visitors to just walk around, CCW, or not. Most schools have fences and doors completely encapsulating them. Are you suggesting you could be just walking around on a campus, or loitering with your CCW, just wandering the halls, or? What kind of heroic scenario are you envisioning?
And again, not true.

Sir, I hope you are never required to testify in court because you appear to be unable to recognize the difference between truth and fiction.
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