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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 08-12-2018, 1:11 PM
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please answer these questions with a logical answers based in law: If this country is striving to make all citizens equal then why are the socialist democrats of california making some classes of citizens (politicians and law enforcement) exempt from the laws all the rest of us have to live under? Why is a cop allowed to be around my child with a handgun declared unsafe especially when cops are committing more and more crimes and murders? why are politicians allowed to carry concealed handguns both during and after terms in office that are unsafe and they are around children? Why are our socialist democrats working against equality on all levels and passing laws that are not equal to everyone?

Last edited by big red; 08-12-2018 at 1:16 PM..
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  #82  
Old 08-12-2018, 2:33 PM
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big red,

Quid pro quo.

LE orgs give money to CA democrats who provide them favors via exemptions.




Last edited by bootstrap; 08-12-2018 at 2:39 PM..
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  #83  
Old 08-12-2018, 3:11 PM
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thank you bootstrap for the valuable information. Now we can decide if the LE's and their organizations got their money worth in exemptions. This is the kind of information we should be looking at and any other financial information that could have a bearing on what is being discussed. I know a lot of it is public record but most of us do not know where to look. Thank you again bootstrap.
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  #84  
Old 08-12-2018, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by big red View Post
please answer these questions with a logical answers based in law: If this country is striving to make all citizens equal then why are the socialist democrats of california making some classes of citizens (politicians and law enforcement) exempt from the laws all the rest of us have to live under? Why is a cop allowed to be around my child with a handgun declared unsafe especially when cops are committing more and more crimes and murders? why are politicians allowed to carry concealed handguns both during and after terms in office that are unsafe and they are around children? Why are our socialist democrats working against equality on all levels and passing laws that are not equal to everyone?
The Constitution does not forbid legislators from carving out exceptions when they feel it is necessary. So on the surface, an exception is just fine. In a case like this, the court is not going to challenge the legislature too hard on that, they assume the legislature did the hard work of researching why an exception might be needed. You can still challenge the exception, but AFAIK Pena did not make that challenge. I'm not sure it's a sound approach, but see below section about abortion or other pet causes.

Questions like "Why are they working against our equality" are political questions, not legal ones. I feel the same frustration, but the courts are not the venue for every frustration. Some frustrations have to be channeled in political directions, only some are appropriate for legal directions. Not every question in the universe is a legal question, but don't get too discouraged here.

Remember, the 9th hates the 2A, they are not going to give us an inch, whereas if this were an abortion case for example, the 9th would have made up some argument for you, and you'd have won the case and been declared a legal genius by the court. Just because we lost before the 9th doesn't by itself mean a whole lot.

Also, Pena was apparently not a well-challenged case, so even in an impartial court we might have had trouble winning. Pena is probably not a great case to appeal to SCOTUS, but a new case, making rational basis arguments or some of the other options might do much better.
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  #85  
Old 08-12-2018, 4:13 PM
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OP, the more equal come to mind. We are all equal, but some are more equal
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  #86  
Old 08-13-2018, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
So you want to end ALL exemptions to the roster?

Don't blame LEO's for the laws it's your friends, neighbors, relatives and coworkers who passed the latest laws by a wide +60% margin. Leo's also didn't support the laws, just like the didn't support the lessening of the criminal penalties for crimes or the legalization of marijuana...

But all those silly bills were passed by CA. voters.

Face it it's the people who live in CA and who vote for these laws who are responsible. not the LEO's.
Have you watched any of the proceedings?
Sheriff's Dept rep gets up and says "as long as this doesn't affect the Sheriff's Dept, current or retired deputies, we're ok with this."
Police Dept rep gets up "as long as this doesn't affect the police Dept, current or retired officers, we're ok with this."

I've seen it and heard it. We can't have em, they can't have em. They don't have our backs, I don't see why we should have their's.

Will always support our cops, but that stops when I become a second class citizen and they are exempt.
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  #87  
Old 08-13-2018, 2:27 PM
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End the PPT as well. I'm sick of seeing "fellow gun owners" pretty much shafting one another. Off roster gen4 $800. Vp9 $1,100.

I know you guys realize they're reading every word. Maybe it's time to start some private groups to have your discussions.

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  #88  
Old 08-13-2018, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.RoDiN View Post
End the PPT as well. I'm sick of seeing "fellow gun owners" pretty much shafting one another. Off roster gen4 $800. Vp9 $1,100.

I know you guys realize they're reading every word. Maybe it's time to start some private groups to have your discussions.

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  #89  
Old 08-13-2018, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
I understand that. But the other handguns are referred to as unsafe.

So... why do we allow the LE to keep us safe with Unsafe handguns?

Who can feel safe when the police officers, the military, etc is using unsafe handguns?

And if safety concerns are proven to not be the purpose of the Roster, it would be a lot easier to paint it what it truly is.
The same reason LEOs are allowed to use AR15s and hi cap mags. Their union fights for exemptions and uses their donation money as leverage.
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  #90  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:07 PM
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Thanks to Bootstrap we now have some figures and can see how cheap exemptions can be bought by LE unions. Some of the information is here so when is the public/gun owners going to outlaw police unions or at the very least put propositions on the ballot next time to limit their ability to "buy" exemptions? right now it sounds like a lot of whining and no one doing anything . unions got slammed on their dues by the courts this year and now is the best chance to curb their power if that is what you really want and take away their exemptions.
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  #91  
Old 08-14-2018, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by big red View Post
Thanks to Bootstrap we now have some figures and can see how cheap exemptions can be bought by LE unions. Some of the information is here so when is the public/gun owners going to outlaw police unions or at the very least put propositions on the ballot next time to limit their ability to "buy" exemptions? right now it sounds like a lot of whining and no one doing anything . unions got slammed on their dues by the courts this year and now is the best chance to curb their power if that is what you really want and take away their exemptions.
You do realize in every state in the USA LEO's and LEA's have "exemptions" to various firearms laws?

California is no different.

You can't "outlaw" Police Associations. It's just not legally possible.

I don't know of any Police Associations who have had members quit due to the recent change in the law.

Gripe all you want, but nothing is going to change.

I agree the roster and most all of the California firearms laws are stupid and serve no purpose, but griping about exemptions isn't going to change anything.

As said above maybe try and add exemptions. That would be a much easier avenue .
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  #92  
Old 08-15-2018, 8:42 AM
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Unfortunately, I believe this is a loosing battle in California. Liberals are not driven by logic, they are driven by emotion. That is why we are where we are in this state. Maybe the best way to get things changed is to promote shooting as a sport (and for self defense). Take your friends to the range with you. Buy them a box of ammo. Let them enjoy what we enjoy. Share a few facts with them that they won't see on CNN or the local news broadcast. Kinda like spreading the gospel of shooting, guns, and the 2nd Amendment. Just my 2 cents.
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  #93  
Old 08-15-2018, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas View Post
Unfortunately, I believe this is a loosing battle in California. Liberals are not driven by logic, they are driven by emotion. That is why we are where we are in this state. Maybe the best way to get things changed is to promote shooting as a sport (and for self defense). Take your friends to the range with you. Buy them a box of ammo. Let them enjoy what we enjoy. Share a few facts with them that they won't see on CNN or the local news broadcast. Kinda like spreading the gospel of shooting, guns, and the 2nd Amendment. Just my 2 cents.
I have been saying that for decades. This is a culture war.
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  #94  
Old 08-15-2018, 11:19 AM
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The best hope would be for the handgun manufactures to sue California for libel and slander and collect damages based upon lost business.

They have labeled these handguns as unsafe.

This has impacted business and caused extreme financial loss due to this derogatory statements presented as facts to the consumers as they make their choices or are unable to make a choice.

The State of California does not believe the handguns are unsafe else the safety officers would be required to not use unsafe handguns or we would change the name of the officers to unsafety wreckless officers.

They are lying.


Alternatively anyone shot by a wreckless officer using an unsafe handgun has grounds for suing because the unsafe officer of the state used an unsafe handgun. Where is Black Lives Matter when you need them?
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  #95  
Old 08-17-2018, 5:35 PM
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What about creating a ballot measure to hold California LEO's to the hand gun roster for safety reasons? We need to start thinking about a different way to support the 2nd in California. The politicians are 2 steps ahead of us because they now how we are going to react.
We don't need to start removing exemptions... we need to s-can the whole thing.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #96  
Old 08-17-2018, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas View Post
Unfortunately, I believe this is a loosing battle in California. Liberals are not driven by logic, they are driven by emotion. That is why we are where we are in this state. Maybe the best way to get things changed is to promote shooting as a sport (and for self defense). Take your friends to the range with you. Buy them a box of ammo. Let them enjoy what we enjoy. Share a few facts with them that they won't see on CNN or the local news broadcast. Kinda like spreading the gospel of shooting, guns, and the 2nd Amendment. Just my 2 cents.
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I have been saying that for decades. This is a culture war.
We lost that war long ago.

OP if you think it's bad now when Newsom wins it will game over. IMO the legislature already has laws ready for Newsom to rubber stamp on prime time TV for all of us to see.
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  #97  
Old 08-17-2018, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
As I am growing more and more unhappy with the level of success this State has with infringing the RKBA, and have been thinking about the roster again, and having no education in the legal field I have a question or two.

1. If the Roster exists to prevent defective or "unsafe" firearms from ending up in consumer hands, then why are the people that should keep the public safe and peaceful allowed to use "unsafe" handguns in the process? How can unsafe handguns be capable of accomplishing that?

2. If the microstamping requirement is indeed a safety feature, or investigative feature, why aren't the crime investigators or crime stoppers required to use only Microstamping capable handguns, and use of any other handgun should be seen as attempt to evade the law, should it not?

3. If the State does believe strongly in the effectiveness of the roster criteria, and based on the above, should it not have first and foremost mandate that only Roster Certified handguns are in the hands or holsters of the LE, private security the state officials use, and the state officials themselves?

Could a new suit be filed on the basis of a logic test, and the basis of double standard that seems to be disproving the reasoning behind the Roster?
None of the above passes the test of logic or common sense and is a clear infringement.

The biggest problem is after Heller 1&2 and McDonald, no state has gone over existing laws to see if they comport with the newly incorporated 2A, via the 14th in McDonald.

The problem is the Government doesn't like restrictions. The Bill of Rights are laws that limit Government. ALL Branches, so The Judiciary really has no Authority to limit the 2A. I know some will point to other parts of the Constitution where it gives the Judiciary authority to interpret the constitutionality of laws but here we have a preemptive and supreme right.
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  #98  
Old 08-17-2018, 7:46 PM
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I know some will point to other parts of the Constitution where it gives the Judiciary authority to interpret the constitutionality of laws but here we have a preemptive and supreme right.
This!!! I agree.
The RIGHTS aren't ours because they are written in the Bill of Rights. They belong to us and predate the amendments. God given or however--- the Bill of Rights just codified that as a reminder to the government that these are hands off. I believe some of the founders didn't even want the amendments written because they thought if they were written, then some would believe it was the document that gave the people power - and therefore changeable.

Unfortunately, the Bill of Rights is interpreted, enforced, and modified by people with an agenda that may not reflect the best interests of the people.
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  #99  
Old 08-18-2018, 1:16 AM
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I agree with the OP, these anti groups should be told the cops are using “unsafe” handguns let them hoot and hollar, protest and riot about that. I think if LE were held to the same standards as citizens, things would change. We should steer them to pushing this agenda. Time to use psychological warfare against the left.
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