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| Ladies Forum A place for our female Calgunners to discuss, share and interact without the 'excess attention' sometimes found in online forums. |
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#1
10-31-2012, 2:30 PM
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Open Carry in Oklahoma
The New York Times reported today, the start of the OK Open Carry Laws on Thursday, midnight.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/us...y-gun-law.html A new law takes effect on Thursday in Oklahoma — anyone licensed to carry a concealed firearm can choose to carry a weapon out in the open, in a belt or shoulder holster, loaded or unloaded. Five minutes after midnight Thursday, Mr. Hull and his friends — supporters of the Oklahoma Open Carry Association, a gun rights group — will mark the occasion by wearing their unconcealed handguns while dining at Beverly’s, a 24-hour restaurant. In a very balanced article, the NYT went on to describe open carry in most states. California was not mentioned by name. And the silence was deafening. This is not a women's issue, particularly, but I think we would all be better off not having to worry about 'printing' or exposing, constantly. Who's is for or against open carry?
__________________
WHAT I HAVE LEARNED SO FAR, MOSTLY THE HARD WAY • Do only safe sex. Never have sex with someone crazier than you are. • Don't marry or move in together before you're both at least 25. • Don't have children until you're married five years or at least age 30. • Put 10% of your salary into savings every month no matter how broke you are. • Don't ever screw around with the IRS. • Keep a handgun on your bedside table. • Don't smart-mouth judges, or cops who stop you on the road. 
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#2
11-02-2012, 12:09 PM
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I've read both sides of the argument, and can see merits in points raised.
My personal experiences from open carrying has been generally good. Before OC was banned in CA, I did so comfortably while hiking through National Forest lands. Other than a few odd glances from fellow hikers, nobody said anything, nor were there any LEO encounters. During a recent trip through Utah, I OC everyday and had no issues either. In fact the sight of my holster opened up pleasant conversations with several other people that were intrigued by the sight. This included fellow travelers through the national parks, and a former Border Patrol agent that was working at a bar that I visited. The 1 negative incident was a elderly couple who were muttering under their breath about openly carrying guns. When respectfully inquired about what they were talking about, they clamped up and scurried away. When I'm home in TX, concealed carry is the order of the day because there is no OC there. I think this boils down to state of mind though. I'm always on alert while traveling, and keep eyes on everything. I tend to wear subdued clothing with little to no branding or tags, and they are always clean or well kept. I don't fidget with my holster nor put my hand on the grip unnecessarily, and pretty much act like it isn't there. I think this pretty much draws attention away from me, and by extension from my holster. YMMV, take with grain of salt, my two pences worth, etc.
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#4
11-02-2012, 1:35 PM
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Open Carry is my preferred method. The firearm that can be concealed is often smaller, harder to aim and follow up with, and of a lower powered caliber. For women this often means taking a further disadvantage with smaller hands and usually less strength the larger recoil of the smaller handgun puts them at a disadvantage.
Further, finding a place to conceal on a lady comfortably requires creativity and luck. There are not many lady friendly holsters and gear. From a man's standpoint, open carry is honest carry. Honest men carry openly, it is the criminal who hides his intent. There is a huge following on this board that is absolutely convinced that the criminals will take your gun from you. I have been able to find one documented incident and it was a weapon not in a retention holder being carried partially concealed (ha it isnt open carry after all but failed concealed) by someone who had no situational awareness. There might be some risk in OC gun loss in a crowd that is BTB, like at a sporting event or in most cities in the AM. My wife has had trouble with carry gear, she can't find any holsters that are comfortable. IWB types don't work at the 6 o'clock because she has a caboose. 3 and 9 are out because of hips. The flash bang is a horrible idea, that leaves ankle holsters. She tried on an Drop Leg and loved it, but of course we can only conceal carry, so that does no good.
__________________
...but their exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level, and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom.
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#7
11-02-2012, 3:43 PM
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Just a heads up.
Our experience at Calguns has been that open carry is extremely polarizing. Perfectly fine to discuss it. No thread on the topic has yet stayed at discussion; perhaps this will be the first.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. 
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#8
11-02-2012, 6:23 PM
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moderator Librarian: you know we [the ladies of Calguns] have a better track record of staying on topic AND/OR hitting the mod button when necessary! however, its good to have a heads up "just in case".....everyone is warned: mods will be reading and perhaps even participating. let's make sure that participation is as a poster, not with a ban hammer!
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"The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound."-- as seen on a t-shirt Quote:
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#9
11-03-2012, 9:45 AM
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I would just like to see the issue be opened up in LA county to allow us to at least apply. As a gun shop owner/manager even my local LEO are appauled that I have no chance at all to get a CW permit.
I don't need open carry, in my experiences <people backing away from me when they find out what I do> the gen pop here would be more likely to shoot me before asking if I am legal to carry.
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#10
11-03-2012, 10:50 AM
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Movie Zombie: Well said, as usual.
I would just like to make my own judgement to carry openly or not. If my judgement is good enough to carry concealed, wouldn't it be good enough to figure out when or whether to carry openly? I might never do it, but I don't want to be in trouble for 'printing' or flashing a CCW either.
__________________
WHAT I HAVE LEARNED SO FAR, MOSTLY THE HARD WAY • Do only safe sex. Never have sex with someone crazier than you are. • Don't marry or move in together before you're both at least 25. • Don't have children until you're married five years or at least age 30. • Put 10% of your salary into savings every month no matter how broke you are. • Don't ever screw around with the IRS. • Keep a handgun on your bedside table. • Don't smart-mouth judges, or cops who stop you on the road. Last edited by BonnieB; 11-03-2012 at 6:43 PM..
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#11
11-03-2012, 5:08 PM
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I was talking to my husband about this today and he actually pointed out that some who open carry do it to show that they have a gun and other gun owners don't necessarily want to advertise that they are carrying. Is it "Hey look at me I have a gun" or is it "Why do you need to know if I have a gun?" It was an angle that I hadn't thought of.
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#12
11-03-2012, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Some might carry exposed to make a show of it, however the majority of those who advocate OC are pretty low key and make a habit of being discrete even while openly armed.
__________________
 Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat “Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.” Friedrich Nietzsche
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#13
11-04-2012, 8:26 AM
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Quote:
and its not just re open carry: i can legally shoot on our property; but i do not. why? well, its this same "conceal" ownership idea. do i really want the neighborhood and/or their guests knowing what i have or do not have? am i better off not advertising the fact that i have guns? am i avoiding a possible break in to get my guns? will i be better able to defend myself if the bad guy doesn't know what he's facing if there is a break in? i would translate to this as if OC, am i now a target by someone who wants to prove themselves to others? or do i want the element of surprise on my side? me? i want the element of surprise....but that is me.
__________________
"The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound."-- as seen on a t-shirt Quote:
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#14
11-04-2012, 9:42 AM
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In nearly every case, in my experience, it has been "hey look at me" and in most instances the wearer has been an obviously immature 20 something.
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#15
11-04-2012, 3:01 PM
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Quote:
To be fair, surprise is overrated. In a mugging or similar situation surprise values little as you are already on the defensive and your opponent has the initiative. In these cases the "element of surprise" belongs entirely to your opponent, at the point you react open and concealed are "too late" to matter greatly. "They will just shoot you if they see your gun and take it". While some just might do that, the number who would is exceptionally rare. Most criminals don't "just shoot someone". It takes a fairly large leap to go from mugger to murderer in a non-resisting person. In a bank robbery the same holds. Else wise they would just massacre everyone in the bank, take the money and be on their merry. Even in some of the most violent crime, such as home invasion, actual murder during the invasion is even more rare than the violent home invasion itself, though assault and rape are common. That next level takes a certain kind of sociopathy. Concealed Carry works off of the concept of Herd Immunity, not surprise. A concealed weapon when you don't have the initiative is as useless as an openly carried one. The idea only works as a deterrent if LTCs are common issue. Which in our state is not the case. What Concealed Carry does provide is a "socially acceptable" form of being armed. Since the early days of our nation even, city culture dictated that being openly armed was "lower class" and "thuggish". Which makes sense when you understand where that cultural concept grew from and the surrounding prejudices and social situations of early industrialization. Which is also the ground floor of civil disarmament. Since I confluence the two in my own opinion that biases me against CC as any kind of "idealized carry", it does make sense in the proper environments and cultures. Both I and my wife find it uncomfortable and to whit a "dishonest behavior forced by a cowardly culture". Two armed parties meeting is always interesting, regardless of era, so it is understandable that there might be cultural pressures towards keeping parties disarmed. Even friendly parties when meeting and armed pass through a moment of challenge. The advantages of open carry are the ability to more easily access your weapon, a large weapon which is more accurate and higher capacity, and often higher caliber. Comfort ranks highest, carry how you are comfortable, there are more options for open than concealed. Culturally open carry is preferred by those who live in low density areas that often lack the open hostility of stacked humanity and masses of "nameless faces". Culturally suspicious of any "furtive" or hidden behaviors. I prefer having BOTH options available so as to be able to carry not just how I like but how the situation allows. Open Carry also means that culturally you are in an area that does not "faint at the sight of a firearm". Which is a positive in my book. Concealed smacks of "out of sight out of mind" which is avoidance of the cultural conflict between the armed and the cowardly. In any case though, a gun will not save you if someone wants you dead and you don't see it coming. Period. Time tested and proven in training. The greatest weapon we carry is our brain and awareness, even then it is no assurance that, as happened locally, someone gets it in their crazy head to setup a sniper position by a rural stop sign and pops someone at random in the head. Not really much you can do about that. Yes that really happened, we got the guy though. If you are in the city press and hustle and someone wants you dead, carry form is irrelevant. By dead, we don't mean just gun, a shank will do in a packed in crowd. In Akibara, Japan, one nutter with a simple knife had a ball due to the high density of people. My support of open carry and my wifes support for it is based on the idea that a culture that allows open carry has accepted an armed populace while one that forces concealed only is indicative of the need for more change in the existing culture as weapons are still culturally "unacceptable".
__________________
...but their exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level, and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom.
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#16
11-04-2012, 3:43 PM
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good post, meaty....very articulate. can't argue with it that the OP is about LOC. extrapolation happens.......
__________________
"The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound."-- as seen on a t-shirt Quote:
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#18
11-04-2012, 5:00 PM
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Ahh, shoot, left off one positive for CC: Environment vs Object Interaction.
Ask anyone who has walked about with a sword for a day (I have, ceremonial, but still 3ft of steel) or a cop about the duty belt. One thing about wearing a gun, or a sword, essentially any sizable arm, will result in new and interesting environmental interactions between you, your arm, and your world. Like having a new tail that came out of no where. You bump into things, sitting becomes new and exciting. Most CC rigs are flat and feature a weapon as small and flat as possible. This smooth concealed surface trends not to hang up on anything or get snagged as a loaded gun belt or sword on the baldric will. So there is that, CC allows for a more normal daily routine to be continued while armed, which is positive.
__________________
...but their exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level, and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom.
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#19
11-04-2012, 11:10 PM
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This just about says everything regarding why I support loaded OC over CC:
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-argument.html I do however support 'constitutional carry' because how you carry should be a personal choice not a legislated command. But concealed carry will ease Ca. more gently toward acceptance of peaceably armed citizens then OC at this time in Ca's history. Barring court protection, OC may see a revival in Ca in my children's lifetime. I don't expect to see it again sadly.
__________________
False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria http://www.a-human-right.com/ Last edited by Liberty1; 11-04-2012 at 11:23 PM..
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