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General gun discussions This is a place to lounge and discuss firearm related topics with other forum members. |
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#2
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looks Like it would not be legal to me. The AR version looks legal, but the AK version is essentially the AR version with an adapter plate that goes between the stock and receiver. Problem is that the adapter allows the webbing of the hand to be below the trigger and therefore not legal (in my very un-lawyery opinion)
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#4
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^^^^^^^^^^ this
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Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#5
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Let me premise this by saying I think everything should be legal, hand grenades and sub-machineguns included. With that in mind we're talking about California and I'm not sure I'd want to pay the legal fees associated with arguing this isn't a thumbhole stock. Yes, I get it the top is open so it's not a "hole" but it certainly allows a similar grip. If the top was connected it would be a thumbhole stock without question.
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#6
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5469 (d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. On an AR15, the thordsen does not allow the web of the hand to be placed below the top portion of the trigger. But on an AK47, the the thordsen stock DOES allow the web to be below the top of the trigger. |
#7
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Ha ha holy cow, that's totally a thumbhole stock. OP there's no way you should even chance using that thing in CA. Google search "AK thumbhole stock" and you'll see multiple examples of how similar the 2 are. |
#8
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It doesn't matter whether pistol grip is part of the stock or not. If you can hold it certain way, it's a pistol grip. Thordsen is playing very close to the legal line with their stocks. Anyone using one should understand potential legal implications.
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#9
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This was my point about the AR version. That version may function as a stock but it has a pistol grip built into it. |
#10
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Thordo |
#11
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Thordo |
#12
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Again, have you read the AW regulations? A "Thumbhole stock" is VERY clearly defined. There is no "hole" in the "stock for your thumb to pass through while firing.
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#13
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Every "compliance stock" is based on the location of the webbing of the hand relative to the top of the trigger, not on any distinction between grip and stock. Otherwise, one would take a standard pistol grip and extend stock from the bottom of it - think of Thordsen stock with much more pronounced angle of the grip. Disclosure: I own a few Thordsen stocks and use them, together with a few CQR stocks. I am personally comfortable about legal status, but if I were to recommend them to someone, I would make sure they understand where the limit is being pushed.
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#14
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I don’t think the thordsen stock could be used to make a featureless AK. |
#15
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Thordo, I'm not against you or your product. I am just apprehensive. The information you posted is good to know.
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#16
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Would this be a thumbhole? I can't expect every LEO to know the finest details of the law, and I cannot expect them to know that little spot being open makes the difference between losing your weapon or even getting jailed for having an unregistered AW. It's just too close for MY comfort, I hope you can understand that. If some gun hating BLM jackass decides that is a thumbhole stock and moves forward with confiscation or charges, where do I go with it? And I fully appreciate there not being any arrests etc based on your products, that is awesome... but things change on July 1st and I am sure you are aware of that. How many cops/rangers/agents know the ins and outs of what's legal or not as well as you? I would venture that number is about 10% or less and those 10% are probably Calgun members. A also agree with boopiejones that there is a marked visual difference in the AK vs.the AR models concerning where the hand webbing rests.
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Buy made in USA whenever possible. Last edited by ACfixer; 06-08-2020 at 6:45 PM.. |
#17
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#18
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California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divison 5 Chapter 39 Article 2 Section 5471 (z) “Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed beneath or below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. This definition includes pistol grips on bullpup firearm designs. (ll) “Stock” means the part of a rifle, carbine, or shotgun to which the receiver is attached and which provides a means for holding the weapon to the shoulder. A stock may be fixed, folding, or telescoping. (mm) “Stock, fixed” means a stock that does not move, fold, or telescope. (nn) “Stock, folding” means a stock which is hinged in some fashion to the receiver to allow the stock to be folded next to the receiver to reduce the overall length of the firearm. This definition includes under folding and over folding stocks. (oo) “Stock, telescoping” means a stock which is shortened or lengthened by allowing one section to telescope into another portion. On AR-15 style firearms, the buffer tube or receiver extension acts as the fixed part of the stock on which the telescoping butt stock slides or telescopes. (qq) “Thumbhole stock” means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing. |
#19
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Thordo Last edited by Thordo; 06-17-2018 at 7:03 AM.. |
#20
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And again position of the web does not apply to the definition of a "rifle stock". Thordo Last edited by Thordo; 06-17-2018 at 7:05 AM.. |
#21
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But doesn’t the position of the web apply to the definition of a pistol grip, which is also an “evil feature?”
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#22
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Thordo |
#23
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Thordo Last edited by Thordo; 06-17-2018 at 4:34 PM.. |
#27
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In other words, it doesn't say anywhere that "it can't be both." Again, I am pretty sure that the legality of any of these conversion stocks hinges upon the lower part of the stock NOT qualifying as a pistol grip based on the definition Quiet posted, not on some distinction between stock and pistol grip.
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#28
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I own a thordsen stock. I love it and appreciate Thordo's company whole-heartedly for their help in CA.
So here is the But, Why is the AR version still above the trigger guard? I understand why the AK version is not.
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#29
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I guess I ask the wrong questions...
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I dreamed of owning a (insert off roster gun here)... Oh yeah....then the earth splits open with me on one side and the (off roster gun) on the other. Then appeared a large red-glowing pit with gavin newscum, diane frankenstein and governor "brown the drain" at the bottom of it, waving their pitchforks at me. (Non caps intended) |
#30
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Your question is not clear. Can you reword it to explain what you are asking?
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#31
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So we have a legally binding document that declares that setup right there is not a thumbhole stock because of that little strip of air? With that argument, I could take a hacksaw and cut a 1mm slot to open air on any thumbhole stock and it would be legal right? Like if I cut a slot in the top of this one, then it's legal?
Let me ask you guys this, if some over zealous cop or BLM agent decides that's a thumbhole stock, what are you going to do about it? Call a bail bondsman and hire a lawyer, that's what. The AW thing is a felony right? What if he's wrong but you still get locked up on a felony charge... You'll probably beat the charge - Probably at least in $5K in legal fees getting it dismissed (or more if they persist with charges) not to mention bail bonds and possibly losing your job. Carry on guys, like I said I think hand grenades and rocket launchers should be legal so you're preaching to the choir here, but jeeeze I think you're really poking at the California bear with this one.
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Buy made in USA whenever possible. Last edited by ACfixer; 06-19-2018 at 7:12 AM.. |
#32
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On the AR version of the thordsen gen 2 stock, the web of the thumb and forefinger are above the trigger housing. On the gen3 AK version the web of the thumb and forefinger are below. If it is not necessary for the AK version, then why is the web of the hand still above the trigger housing on the AR version on the gen3?
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I dreamed of owning a (insert off roster gun here)... Oh yeah....then the earth splits open with me on one side and the (off roster gun) on the other. Then appeared a large red-glowing pit with gavin newscum, diane frankenstein and governor "brown the drain" at the bottom of it, waving their pitchforks at me. (Non caps intended) |
#33
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Now what? Them stocks got pistol grips! Your "stock cannot ever have a pistol grip" opinion is not based in any relevant fact or law. There is no such exception in the law. It would be nice if that were held to be true, but I would not rely upon that. Last edited by God Bless America; 06-19-2018 at 7:38 AM.. |
#34
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And you are correct about the costs of finding out the hard way. Nothing to laugh at. |
#36
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Thordo |
#37
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Thordo |
#39
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If the position of the hand is irrelevant because the Thordsen stock is not a grip, then why did the AR version go to such great lengths to emphasize where the hand web rested in relation to the trigger. And if the hand position doesn't matter, then why not redesign the AR version to be more comfortable/traditional with a steeper grip angle?
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#40
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I can’t help but remember this imagery:
http://www.ossh.com/firearms/caag.st...pistolgrip.htm It’s interesting in that the SKS has a pistol grip integrated with the stock, but that doesn’t seem to matter. The final 3 examples with sporter stocks still have example lines present, there isn’t any text saying that “since these are all stocks, the pistol grip definition doesn’t apply.” Anyways, I’m off to track down some M14E2 stocks and some Cav Arms integrated lowers... — Michael Last edited by elSquid; 06-19-2018 at 11:54 AM.. |
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