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  #1  
Old 06-15-2018, 8:55 PM
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Default Legality of Ak thordsen stock?

Reason I ask is there is a silent auction for 50 bucks. Seems like the grasp is well below the action of the receiver
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  #2  
Old 06-15-2018, 9:13 PM
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looks Like it would not be legal to me. The AR version looks legal, but the AK version is essentially the AR version with an adapter plate that goes between the stock and receiver. Problem is that the adapter allows the webbing of the hand to be below the trigger and therefore not legal (in my very un-lawyery opinion)
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  #3  
Old 06-16-2018, 5:56 AM
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What?
If it's legal on an AR, it s legal on an AK.
The position of the web of the hand is irrelevant because it's not a grip, it's a stock.
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Old 06-16-2018, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mnichols View Post
What?
If it's legal on an AR, it s legal on an AK.
The position of the web of the hand is irrelevant because it's not a grip, it's a stock.
^^^^^^^^^^ this
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  #5  
Old 06-16-2018, 6:41 AM
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Let me premise this by saying I think everything should be legal, hand grenades and sub-machineguns included. With that in mind we're talking about California and I'm not sure I'd want to pay the legal fees associated with arguing this isn't a thumbhole stock. Yes, I get it the top is open so it's not a "hole" but it certainly allows a similar grip. If the top was connected it would be a thumbhole stock without question.

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  #6  
Old 06-16-2018, 7:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mnichols View Post
What?
If it's legal on an AR, it s legal on an AK.
The position of the web of the hand is irrelevant because it's not a grip, it's a stock.
It’s a grip/stock combo. The concern is whether the grip portion may still be considered a “pistol grip”

5469 (d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

On an AR15, the thordsen does not allow the web of the hand to be placed below the top portion of the trigger. But on an AK47, the the thordsen stock DOES allow the web to be below the top of the trigger.
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  #7  
Old 06-16-2018, 7:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
Let me premise this by saying I think everything should be legal, hand grenades and sub-machineguns included. With that in mind we're talking about California and I'm not sure I'd want to pay the legal fees associated with arguing this isn't a thumbhole stock. Yes, I get it the top is open so it's not a "hole" but it certainly allows a similar grip. If the top was connected it would be a thumbhole stock without question.


Ha ha holy cow, that's totally a thumbhole stock. OP there's no way you should even chance using that thing in CA. Google search "AK thumbhole stock" and you'll see multiple examples of how similar the 2 are.
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  #8  
Old 06-16-2018, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnichols View Post
The position of the web of the hand is irrelevant because it's not a grip, it's a stock.
Pistol grip is a "feature" in CA legal sense and it is defined based on hand position relative to trigger.

It doesn't matter whether pistol grip is part of the stock or not. If you can hold it certain way, it's a pistol grip. Thordsen is playing very close to the legal line with their stocks. Anyone using one should understand potential legal implications.
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  #9  
Old 06-16-2018, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Pistol grip is a "feature" in CA legal sense and it is defined based on hand position relative to trigger.

It doesn't matter whether pistol grip is part of the stock or not. If you can hold it certain way, it's a pistol grip. Thordsen is playing very close to the legal line with their stocks. Anyone using one should understand potential legal implications.

This was my point about the AR version. That version may function as a stock but it has a pistol grip built into it.
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  #10  
Old 06-16-2018, 9:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Pistol grip is a "feature" in CA legal sense and it is defined based on hand position relative to trigger.

It doesn't matter whether pistol grip is part of the stock or not. If you can hold it certain way, it's a pistol grip. Thordsen is playing very close to the legal line with their stocks. Anyone using one should understand potential legal implications.
Have you read the new AW regulations? A "pistol grip" is a standalone feature as is a "rifle stock". They have completely different definitions in the new regs and are not related.

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Old 06-16-2018, 9:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Unbekannt View Post
This was my point about the AR version. That version may function as a stock but it has a pistol grip built into it.
We've been selling the FRS in CA for 7 years now (somewhere around 50,000 units) and there hasn't been a single person arrested or detained for possession of an AW BECAUSE OF our stock. If there ever was we would be the first to know.

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Old 06-16-2018, 9:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
Ha ha holy cow, that's totally a thumbhole stock. OP there's no way you should even chance using that thing in CA. Google search "AK thumbhole stock" and you'll see multiple examples of how similar the 2 are.
Again, have you read the AW regulations? A "Thumbhole stock" is VERY clearly defined. There is no "hole" in the "stock for your thumb to pass through while firing.
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  #13  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
Have you read the new AW regulations? A "pistol grip" is a standalone feature as is a "rifle stock". They have completely different definitions in the new regs and are not related.

Thordo
Please post a link/reference to the specific penal code section or regulation that you are referencing.

Every "compliance stock" is based on the location of the webbing of the hand relative to the top of the trigger, not on any distinction between grip and stock. Otherwise, one would take a standard pistol grip and extend stock from the bottom of it - think of Thordsen stock with much more pronounced angle of the grip.

Disclosure: I own a few Thordsen stocks and use them, together with a few CQR stocks. I am personally comfortable about legal status, but if I were to recommend them to someone, I would make sure they understand where the limit is being pushed.
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  #14  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
Again, have you read the AW regulations? A "Thumbhole stock" is VERY clearly defined. There is no "hole" in the "stock for your thumb to pass through while firing.
I don’t think the thumbhole stock is the issue here. I think it’s the pistol grip. Your stock looks fine on an AR, but it looks like it is still technically a pistol grip when installed on an AK, as the webbing of the hand sits below the top of the visible part of the trigger.

I don’t think the thordsen stock could be used to make a featureless AK.
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  #15  
Old 06-16-2018, 2:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
We've been selling the FRS in CA for 7 years now (somewhere around 50,000 units) and there hasn't been a single person arrested or detained for possession of an AW BECAUSE OF our stock. If there ever was we would be the first to know.

Thordo
Thordo, I'm not against you or your product. I am just apprehensive. The information you posted is good to know.
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Old 06-16-2018, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
Again, have you read the AW regulations? A "Thumbhole stock" is VERY clearly defined. There is no "hole" in the "stock for your thumb to pass through while firing.
So if the upper part of the stock touched the receiver, then it would be a thumbhole... Yes I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your products, you're one of the good guys. But you can understand the apprehension in today's climate right?

Would this be a thumbhole?



I can't expect every LEO to know the finest details of the law, and I cannot expect them to know that little spot being open makes the difference between losing your weapon or even getting jailed for having an unregistered AW. It's just too close for MY comfort, I hope you can understand that. If some gun hating BLM jackass decides that is a thumbhole stock and moves forward with confiscation or charges, where do I go with it?

And I fully appreciate there not being any arrests etc based on your products, that is awesome... but things change on July 1st and I am sure you are aware of that. How many cops/rangers/agents know the ins and outs of what's legal or not as well as you? I would venture that number is about 10% or less and those 10% are probably Calgun members.

A also agree with boopiejones that there is a marked visual difference in the AK vs.the AR models concerning where the hand webbing rests.
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Old 06-16-2018, 4:21 PM
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https://monstermangrip.com/legal-info

Put a monster man on it.
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2018, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
Have you read the new AW regulations? A "pistol grip" is a standalone feature as is a "rifle stock". They have completely different definitions in the new regs and are not related.

Thordo
Please post a link/reference to the specific penal code section or regulation that you are referencing.


California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divison 5 Chapter 39 Article 2 Section 5471
(z) “Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed beneath or below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. This definition includes pistol grips on bullpup firearm designs.
(ll) “Stock” means the part of a rifle, carbine, or shotgun to which the receiver is attached and which provides a means for holding the weapon to the shoulder. A stock may be fixed, folding, or telescoping.
(mm) “Stock, fixed” means a stock that does not move, fold, or telescope.
(nn) “Stock, folding” means a stock which is hinged in some fashion to the receiver to allow the stock to be folded next to the receiver to reduce the overall length of the firearm. This definition includes under folding and over folding stocks.
(oo) “Stock, telescoping” means a stock which is shortened or lengthened by allowing one section to telescope into another portion. On AR-15 style firearms, the buffer tube or receiver extension acts as the fixed part of the stock on which the telescoping butt stock slides or telescopes.
(qq) “Thumbhole stock” means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.
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Old 06-17-2018, 6:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
So if the upper part of the stock touched the receiver, then it would be a thumbhole... Yes I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your products, you're one of the good guys. But you can understand the apprehension in today's climate right?

Would this be a thumbhole?



I can't expect every LEO to know the finest details of the law, and I cannot expect them to know that little spot being open makes the difference between losing your weapon or even getting jailed for having an unregistered AW. It's just too close for MY comfort, I hope you can understand that. If some gun hating BLM jackass decides that is a thumbhole stock and moves forward with confiscation or charges, where do I go with it?

And I fully appreciate there not being any arrests etc based on your products, that is awesome... but things change on July 1st and I am sure you are aware of that. How many cops/rangers/agents know the ins and outs of what's legal or not as well as you? I would venture that number is about 10% or less and those 10% are probably Calgun members.

A also agree with boopiejones that there is a marked visual difference in the AK vs.the AR models concerning where the hand webbing rests.
LEOs now are MUCH more in tune with the changing laws. They now have to follow the same rules as we do and a lot of them have much more exotic guns than we have due to their exemptions for so many years. Now they are scrambling to get their collections compliant as well. We've done group buys for entire departments in some cases. We've had everyone from local LEO to Homeland Security employees based in CA contact us.

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Old 06-17-2018, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
So if the upper part of the stock touched the receiver, then it would be a thumbhole... Yes I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your products, you're one of the good guys. But you can understand the apprehension in today's climate right?

Would this be a thumbhole?



I can't expect every LEO to know the finest details of the law, and I cannot expect them to know that little spot being open makes the difference between losing your weapon or even getting jailed for having an unregistered AW. It's just too close for MY comfort, I hope you can understand that. If some gun hating BLM jackass decides that is a thumbhole stock and moves forward with confiscation or charges, where do I go with it?

And I fully appreciate there not being any arrests etc based on your products, that is awesome... but things change on July 1st and I am sure you are aware of that. How many cops/rangers/agents know the ins and outs of what's legal or not as well as you? I would venture that number is about 10% or less and those 10% are probably Calgun members.

A also agree with boopiejones that there is a marked visual difference in the AK vs.the AR models concerning where the hand webbing rests.
To answer your thumbhole question. According to our ATF response letter, if there is no MECHANICAL connection between the stock and the receiver (where you blocked in) it IS NOT A 'thumbhole stock". We certainly wouldn't be selling them if there was ANY doubt. There's also numerous legal opinions, and seven years the precedent set since the original product was released.

And again position of the web does not apply to the definition of a "rifle stock".

Thordo
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Old 06-17-2018, 7:15 AM
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...

And again position of the web does not apply to the definition of a "rifle stock".

Thordo
But doesn’t the position of the web apply to the definition of a pistol grip, which is also an “evil feature?”
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Old 06-17-2018, 7:28 AM
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California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divison 5 Chapter 39 Article 2 Section 5471
(z) “Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed beneath or below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. This definition includes pistol grips on bullpup firearm designs.
(ll) “Stock” means the part of a rifle, carbine, or shotgun to which the receiver is attached and which provides a means for holding the weapon to the shoulder. A stock may be fixed, folding, or telescoping.
(mm) “Stock, fixed” means a stock that does not move, fold, or telescope.
(nn) “Stock, folding” means a stock which is hinged in some fashion to the receiver to allow the stock to be folded next to the receiver to reduce the overall length of the firearm. This definition includes under folding and over folding stocks.
(oo) “Stock, telescoping” means a stock which is shortened or lengthened by allowing one section to telescope into another portion. On AR-15 style firearms, the buffer tube or receiver extension acts as the fixed part of the stock on which the telescoping butt stock slides or telescopes.
(qq) “Thumbhole stock” means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.
Perfect!! Both are INDIVIDUAL FEATURES. It can be one feature or the other but it can't be both. That's not to say that (they) can't change the rules at any time. As with the GEN I and GEN II FRS, I certainly wouldn't have spent two years developing the GEN III system and adaptations to make it fit multiple platforms if I was less than 100% certain of its properties being within "the current" confines of the law.

Thordo
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Old 06-17-2018, 7:32 AM
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Thordo, I'm not against you or your product. I am just apprehensive. The information you posted is good to know.
This is America??? You are still free to make your own choices...mostly??? You do what you feel is most comfortable for you. If the FRS is not for you for whatever reason, I respect that. There are lots of good options out there.

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Old 06-17-2018, 8:38 AM
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Thanks for the responses Thordo, your input was appreciated. Nice products.
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Old 06-17-2018, 9:23 AM
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Thanks for the responses Thordo, your input was appreciated. Nice products.
Ditto
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Old 06-17-2018, 1:20 PM
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Web of the hand can be under the top of the exposed portion of the trigger on an AR, too. But it’s a stock.


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Old 06-18-2018, 7:47 AM
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California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divison 5 Chapter 39 Article 2 Section 5471
(z) “Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed beneath or below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
Perfect!! Both are INDIVIDUAL FEATURES. It can be one feature or the other but it can't be both.
Quiet posted the standard definition that applies to anything that "protrudes conspicuously beneath the action." There is nothing that would suggest that the definition wouldn't apply to something just because that something is also defined as a stock elsewhere.

In other words, it doesn't say anywhere that "it can't be both."

Again, I am pretty sure that the legality of any of these conversion stocks hinges upon the lower part of the stock NOT qualifying as a pistol grip based on the definition Quiet posted, not on some distinction between stock and pistol grip.
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Old 06-18-2018, 8:57 AM
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I own a thordsen stock. I love it and appreciate Thordo's company whole-heartedly for their help in CA.

So here is the But,
Why is the AR version still above the trigger guard? I understand why the AK version is not.
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Old 06-19-2018, 5:25 AM
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I guess I ask the wrong questions...
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Old 06-19-2018, 5:57 AM
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I guess I ask the wrong questions...
Your question is not clear. Can you reword it to explain what you are asking?
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Old 06-19-2018, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by solidfreshdope View Post
So we have a legally binding document that declares that setup right there is not a thumbhole stock because of that little strip of air? With that argument, I could take a hacksaw and cut a 1mm slot to open air on any thumbhole stock and it would be legal right? Like if I cut a slot in the top of this one, then it's legal?



Let me ask you guys this, if some over zealous cop or BLM agent decides that's a thumbhole stock, what are you going to do about it? Call a bail bondsman and hire a lawyer, that's what.

The AW thing is a felony right? What if he's wrong but you still get locked up on a felony charge... You'll probably beat the charge - Probably at least in $5K in legal fees getting it dismissed (or more if they persist with charges) not to mention bail bonds and possibly losing your job.

Carry on guys, like I said I think hand grenades and rocket launchers should be legal so you're preaching to the choir here, but jeeeze I think you're really poking at the California bear with this one.
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Old 06-19-2018, 7:19 AM
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Your question is not clear. Can you reword it to explain what you are asking?
On the AR version of the thordsen gen 2 stock, the web of the thumb and forefinger are above the trigger housing. On the gen3 AK version the web of the thumb and forefinger are below. If it is not necessary for the AK version, then why is the web of the hand still above the trigger housing on the AR version on the gen3?
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I dreamed of owning a (insert off roster gun here)...

Oh yeah....then the earth splits open with me on one side and the (off roster gun) on the other. Then appeared a large red-glowing pit with gavin newscum, diane frankenstein and governor "brown the drain" at the bottom of it, waving their pitchforks at me.
(Non caps intended)
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Old 06-19-2018, 7:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnichols View Post
...
The position of the web of the hand is irrelevant because it's not a grip, it's a stock.
Stocks can and do have pistol grips. Look at Marlin lever actions, available with (most commonly) and without pistol grips.

Now what? Them stocks got pistol grips!

Your "stock cannot ever have a pistol grip" opinion is not based in any relevant fact or law. There is no such exception in the law.

It would be nice if that were held to be true, but I would not rely upon that.

Last edited by God Bless America; 06-19-2018 at 7:38 AM..
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Old 06-19-2018, 7:34 AM
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So we have a legally binding document that declares that setup right there is not a thumbhole stock because of that little strip of air? With that argument, I could take a hacksaw and cut a 1mm slot to open air on any thumbhole stock and it would be legal right? Like if I cut a slot in the top of this one, then it's legal?



Let me ask you guys this, if some over zealous cop or BLM agent decides that's a thumbhole stock, what are you going to do about it? Call a bail bondsman and hire a lawyer, that's what.

The AW thing is a felony right? What if he's wrong but you still get locked up on a felony charge... You'll probably beat the charge - Probably at least in $5K in legal fees getting it dismissed (or more if they persist with charges) not to mention bail bonds and possibly losing your job.

Carry on guys, like I said I think hand grenades and rocket launchers should be legal so you're preaching to the choir here, but jeeeze I think you're really poking at the California bear with this one.
Well the receiver extension is not a stock so I would actually argue in good faith that the AR pictured above does not have a thumbhole stock but it sure does look like one.

And you are correct about the costs of finding out the hard way. Nothing to laugh at.
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  #35  
Old 06-19-2018, 8:54 AM
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That thing is ugly and risky

Unless Thordo is paying for the bonds and legal fee, don’t try it.

To Thordo, try to get CA-DOJ to approve it.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SmallShark View Post
That thing is ugly and risky

Unless Thordo is paying for the bonds and legal fee, don’t try it.

To Thordo, try to get CA-DOJ to approve it.
DOJ does not approve anything. None of the current featureless, fixed, or single shot solutions will ever be officially approved, not ours or anybody else's.
Thordo
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
Well the receiver extension is not a stock so I would actually argue in good faith that the AR pictured above does not have a thumbhole stock but it sure does look like one.

And you are correct about the costs of finding out the hard way. Nothing to laugh at.
That is definitely a "thumbhole stock".

Thordo
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  #38  
Old 06-19-2018, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnichols View Post
The position of the web of the hand is irrelevant because it's not a grip, it's a stock.
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  #39  
Old 06-19-2018, 11:07 AM
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If the position of the hand is irrelevant because the Thordsen stock is not a grip, then why did the AR version go to such great lengths to emphasize where the hand web rested in relation to the trigger. And if the hand position doesn't matter, then why not redesign the AR version to be more comfortable/traditional with a steeper grip angle?
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  #40  
Old 06-19-2018, 11:33 AM
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I can’t help but remember this imagery:

http://www.ossh.com/firearms/caag.st...pistolgrip.htm

It’s interesting in that the SKS has a pistol grip integrated with the stock, but that doesn’t seem to matter.

The final 3 examples with sporter stocks still have example lines present, there isn’t any text saying that “since these are all stocks, the pistol grip definition doesn’t apply.”

Anyways, I’m off to track down some M14E2 stocks and some Cav Arms integrated lowers...



— Michael

Last edited by elSquid; 06-19-2018 at 11:54 AM..
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