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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 06-12-2018, 10:33 PM
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Default Ar 15 quality

Wanted to know the nice ar 15 brands to look out for. Im not sure if a 223 heavy barrel exists but thats what i want to go for topped with a nice quality receiver. Any words of wisdom is welcome. Pm welcome as well.

I have no experience with this platform
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:46 PM
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Pretty much anything on the market is fine.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:04 PM
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Go to Riflegear website
> select 556/223
> select $3000-$10000
> Choose a color and buy.
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  #4  
Old 06-12-2018, 11:49 PM
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Just buy an upper from aero precision during the next sale and then put it on top of an lower of your choice. What are you planning on using this for?
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:06 AM
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Avoid Radical Firearms.

Top of the pile IMO: KAC, BCM, Daniel Defense, Colt

Then everything else

(yeah there is boutique stuff like noveske, not worth the extra $$)

Unless you will only be sitting at a bench that heavy barrel will get really old, really quick if you have to move around with it

Last edited by Ej6fade; 06-13-2018 at 12:08 AM..
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Old 06-13-2018, 2:58 AM
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It's a for fun build, I mainly wanted to gain rapport for what's good on the market for the AR platform.

Requirements are two things, It's gotta look sweeeet when project is finished. Barrel must be heavy
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Old 06-13-2018, 4:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ej6fade View Post
Avoid Radical Firearms.

Top of the pile IMO: KAC, BCM, Daniel Defense, Colt

Then everything else

(yeah there is boutique stuff like noveske, not worth the extra $$)

Unless you will only be sitting at a bench that heavy barrel will get really old, really quick if you have to move around with it
Colt shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath as Knight’s, BCM, DD, LMT, etc.
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Old 06-13-2018, 6:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presser View Post
It's a for fun build, I mainly wanted to gain rapport for what's good on the market for the AR platform.

Requirements are two things, It's gotta look sweeeet when project is finished. Barrel must be heavy
Check this out -

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/

http://www.compasslake.com/

Either one is good
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  #9  
Old 06-13-2018, 8:04 AM
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Heavy barrel for am AR15 can mean either "bull barrel" 0.92" diameter at muzzle or "HBAR" 0.75" at muzzle but 1" under the vanguard.
The bull barrel is usually 24" long for varmint or bench rest shooting. The HBAR is 20" and usually for shooting Service Rifle class competition.
Always go with free float vanguard for accuracy.
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Old 06-13-2018, 7:19 PM
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I have a BCM upper and it reeks of quality. If I were in the market for another one, I would not even think about it.

Another nice one is LaRue.


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  #11  
Old 06-14-2018, 1:41 AM
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I'm very grateful for the help everyone.
I know exactly, what I want with the help from the fellow calgunners.

AR pistol 8.5-10" inch bull barrel Gas piston.

So who has the best 80% receiver?

I'm unsure about the upper situation many of the websites and brands listed show completed uppers for rifles
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Old 06-14-2018, 5:53 PM
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You probably get the the best quality and best prices if you go with LMT, BCM, DANIEL DEFENSE.
Others will be either higher price but you wont really get better quality, and if you spend less $$, you will probably get less quality.
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  #13  
Old 06-15-2018, 2:24 AM
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Ok so I am going to break it down for folks that are new or already into the AR game.

I will list 4 tiers. Regardless, they are pretty much what I have experienced as I have owned most of them or used them while on duty in the military. These are the top models by brand...

Top Tier: Starts at $1800

POF (prior owner of)
HK 556/762
LWRC (prior owner of)
Noveske
Sig Sauer (prior owner of)
BCM


Mid Tear: Starts at $1000

Daniel Defense (prior owner of)
Colt (prior owner)
LMT
FN Herstal (prior owner of)
Larue
Ruger (prior owner of)

Low Tier: Starts at $499

Spikes Tactical ( I realize Spikes tries to sell their ARs for like $1500+ but just not worth it)
Rock River Arms (prior owner of)
Windham Firearms (Best bang for the buck IMO and if you are starting out you just cannot beat Windham for the quality, customer service AND price. Rock River comes in second for beginners)
PSA
Smith & Wesson (prior owner of)
Aero Precision
Mossberg Tactical
Del-Ton

Budget Tier: (Absolute Worst ARs)

DPMS (prior owner of)
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Last edited by Endless; 06-15-2018 at 2:29 AM..
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2018, 2:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presser View Post
I'm very grateful for the help everyone.
I know exactly, what I want with the help from the fellow calgunners.

AR pistol 8.5-10" inch bull barrel Gas piston.

So who has the best 80% receiver?

I'm unsure about the upper situation many of the websites and brands listed show completed uppers for rifles
If you want to go the AR pistol route I would go for a minimum of 11.5 inch barrel.

That way as a single shot or maglocked AR its still useful and not just a plinking gun.

I love the 7.62 Sig AR gas piston pistol with VFG but they were like $1799 before I left Maine. I couldnt justify that price. In California they are "off roster" and twice that price. Ridiculous. lol

Also keep in mind if you want to run a VFG you can as long as the OAL is over 26.0 inches. The BATF says now its a "firearm" and therefore no AOW required. Some folks in California will say its a no-no and some say its just fine. I have shot AR pistols at outdoor ranges with a VFG and never had any issues. Plus as of early 2017 BATF says you can now accidentally shoulder AR pistols.

Youtube it. Sig talks about the braces being 50 state legal as well yada yada yada.

Also when measuring for your OAL its the end of the buffer tube, NOT the brace, and without your muzzle break on, unless permanent. Those do not count. If you are 25.99 inches you CANNOT run a VFG without BATF approval.


Good luck!



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Last edited by Endless; 06-15-2018 at 2:52 AM..
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2018, 3:17 AM
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Are you familiar with, "The Chart," perchance?






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Old 06-15-2018, 3:25 AM
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I have a colt hbar with no muzzle brake clean barrel. 20" on a2 upper I likealso have 24" stinless ar with 6-24 scope can really reach out.
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  #17  
Old 06-15-2018, 4:30 AM
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JP Enterpries...



.
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It makes it bigger and longer.
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  #18  
Old 06-15-2018, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless View Post
Ok so I am going to break it down for folks that are new or already into the AR game.

I will list 4 tiers. Regardless, they are pretty much what I have experienced as I have owned most of them or used them while on duty in the military. These are the top models by brand...

Top Tier: Starts at $1800

POF (prior owner of)
HK 556/762
LWRC (prior owner of)
Noveske
Sig Sauer (prior owner of)
BCM


Mid Tear: Starts at $1000

Daniel Defense (prior owner of)
Colt (prior owner)
LMT
FN Herstal (prior owner of)
Larue
Ruger (prior owner of)

Low Tier: Starts at $499

Spikes Tactical ( I realize Spikes tries to sell their ARs for like $1500+ but just not worth it)
Rock River Arms (prior owner of)
Windham Firearms (Best bang for the buck IMO and if you are starting out you just cannot beat Windham for the quality, customer service AND price. Rock River comes in second for beginners)
PSA
Smith & Wesson (prior owner of)
Aero Precision
Mossberg Tactical
Del-Ton

Budget Tier: (Absolute Worst ARs)

DPMS (prior owner of)
Maybe your issued rifle ran fine, but Sig is top tier?
Maybe their P226's made in Germany in the 80's, Sigs QC is laughable this day in age, especially since now their technically is no "Sauer" anymore on the corporate side. I don't remember the dude's name, but the guy that ruined Kimber's QC for wanting to cut costs and corners is now at/handling Sig's stuff, and it shows in newer production. The M400 doesn't even compare IMO to a Colt 6920LE or a 6940LE, and the 516/716 series they charge KAC $$$ for something not even close in quality. I wouldn't put Ruger anywhere near mid-tier, they are "low-tier", just another #metoo cheap AR. PSA is dependent on what "tier" of product you buy from them; avoid PTAC, freedom line is OK, then classic, then premium/CHF stuff is GTG, (CHF & premium barrels made by FNH & premium BCG's made by Toolcraft). KAC is at the top of that pile

A lot of other brands out there too but everyone is making AR's these days

Last edited by Ej6fade; 06-15-2018 at 9:06 AM..
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  #19  
Old 06-15-2018, 8:52 AM
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I find 10.5 Ar pistols to run quite well. I don't think you want a heavy barrel though. You wont be doing long strings of full auto so its just weight with no benefit.
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Old 06-15-2018, 9:06 AM
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WINDHAM! Definitely best value out there. Excellent quality. I have their .308 16" rifle and it is amazing. Definitely a premium rifle at a value price.
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  #21  
Old 06-15-2018, 9:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightcav View Post
WINDHAM! Definitely best value out there. Excellent quality. I have their .308 16" rifle and it is amazing. Definitely a premium rifle at a value price.
Windam is definitely GTG, they are the OG Bushmaster guys that started their own company after Remington (freedom group) bought them out, Bushmaster QC took a serious hit, same with the other's they have acquired, like Marlin
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ej6fade View Post
...I don't remember the dude's name, but the guy that ruined Kimber's QC for wanting to cut costs and corners is now at/handling Sig's stuff, and it shows in newer production. The M400 doesn't even compare IMO to a Colt 6920LE or a 6940LE, and the 516/716 series they charge KAC $$$ for something not even close in quality. I wouldn't put Ruger anywhere near mid-tier, they are "low-tier", just another #metoo cheap AR. PSA is dependent on what "tier" of product you buy from them; avoid PTAC, freedom line is OK, then classic, then premium/CHF stuff is GTG, (CHF & premium barrels made by FNH & premium BCG's made by Toolcraft). KAC is at the top of that pile

A lot of other brands out there too but everyone is making AR's these days
The "guy's" name is Cohen...Ej6fade is correct. Kimber's pistols declined in workmanship and so did SIG's.

I'll also add that anytime "quality tiers" are mentioned, you can normally expect a shovel or two of schitt in the response. Just remember the old saying about "opinions".
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  #23  
Old 06-15-2018, 1:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ej6fade View Post
Maybe your issued rifle ran fine, but Sig is top tier?
Maybe their P226's made in Germany in the 80's, Sigs QC is laughable this day in age, especially since now their technically is no "Sauer" anymore on the corporate side. I don't remember the dude's name, but the guy that ruined Kimber's QC for wanting to cut costs and corners is now at/handling Sig's stuff, and it shows in newer production. The M400 doesn't even compare IMO to a Colt 6920LE or a 6940LE, and the 516/716 series they charge KAC $$$ for something not even close in quality. I wouldn't put Ruger anywhere near mid-tier, they are "low-tier", just another #metoo cheap AR. PSA is dependent on what "tier" of product you buy from them; avoid PTAC, freedom line is OK, then classic, then premium/CHF stuff is GTG, (CHF & premium barrels made by FNH & premium BCG's made by Toolcraft). KAC is at the top of that pile

A lot of other brands out there too but everyone is making AR's these days
I disagree and many just jump on the bandwagon of a pistol that had poor quality control issues. That’s a ding on Sig but definitely doesn’t define them. Fact.

Secondly, I am a former owner of 2 colt LE stamped 6940s and 6920s and they don’t compare to the Sig gas piston setups. Sorry they just don’t. I am a current owner of these. In free states a Colt 6940 and 6920s on the used market are $700 firearms. That’s a fact. I sold one of my 6940s in Oregon for $750 with 10 30 round mags.

It appears you just don’t have quality range time or service time to make a true and accurate judgement. That’s fine there are a lot of folks like you and it’s not a ding but an observation.

I appreciate your opinion but having had quality hours of range time with all of the above, I will trust my judgement and experience over folks with next to zero range time/police/military time.

Btw I have had nothing but top notch customer service from Sig. some folks you just can’t please, no matter what’s sold and most folks on cal guns sad to say have nothing more than a dozen range time experiences and video game experience. Another fact.

Good day sir.
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  #24  
Old 06-15-2018, 2:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless View Post
Ok so I am going to break it down for folks that are new or already into the AR game.

I will list 4 tiers. Regardless, they are pretty much what I have experienced as I have owned most of them or used them while on duty in the military. These are the top models by brand...

Top Tier: Starts at $1800

POF (prior owner of)
HK 556/762
LWRC (prior owner of)
Noveske
Sig Sauer (prior owner of)
BCM


Mid Tear: Starts at $1000

Daniel Defense (prior owner of)
Colt (prior owner)
LMT
FN Herstal (prior owner of)
Larue
Ruger (prior owner of)

Low Tier: Starts at $499

Spikes Tactical ( I realize Spikes tries to sell their ARs for like $1500+ but just not worth it)
Rock River Arms (prior owner of)
Windham Firearms (Best bang for the buck IMO and if you are starting out you just cannot beat Windham for the quality, customer service AND price. Rock River comes in second for beginners)
PSA
Smith & Wesson (prior owner of)
Aero Precision
Mossberg Tactical
Del-Ton

Budget Tier: (Absolute Worst ARs)

DPMS (prior owner of)
Rock River Arms bull barrels use Wilson blanks. I wouldn't call those "Low Tier".
I'd also put Larue in the Top Tier. They are just as good if not better than BCM, Sig or Ruger.
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  #25  
Old 06-15-2018, 2:26 PM
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I like Mega Arms upper and lower. Then depending on what your doing shtf long range or plinking build the rest accordingly.
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  #26  
Old 06-15-2018, 2:53 PM
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So something like a BCM is always going to beat a Windham in QUALITY and SPEC, FEATURES, FIT FINISH, etc... because it is much higher tier? Or are the tiers based on dollars. Are you saying the prices are fair for what you are getting because all I see are brands and dollars in groupings. No features or testing, etc...

http://ar15armory.com/forums/tutoria...by-rob-sloyer/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ear-by.412669/

Is this the chart? Where is the most up to date chart?

http://louisvillebusiness.com/M4%20C...on%20Chart.pdf
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  #27  
Old 06-15-2018, 2:59 PM
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Lmt mid tier.

Bcm that doesn't manufacture top tier?.
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Old 06-15-2018, 3:24 PM
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Anderson receivers, Toolcraft BCG, Ballistic Advantage Barrel, CMMG parts kit, Hiperfire FCG, and name your own furniture. GTG.
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Old 06-15-2018, 3:38 PM
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I have a Spike's Tactical crusader that's pretty damn nice. That and my Colt 6920 Magpul Edition are my two favorite ARS
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Old 06-15-2018, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless View Post
I disagree and many just jump on the bandwagon of a pistol that had poor quality control issues. That’s a ding on Sig but definitely doesn’t define them. Fact.

Secondly, I am a former owner of 2 colt LE stamped 6940s and 6920s and they don’t compare to the Sig gas piston setups. Sorry they just don’t. I am a current owner of these. In free states a Colt 6940 and 6920s on the used market are $700 firearms. That’s a fact. I sold one of my 6940s in Oregon for $750 with 10 30 round mags.

It appears you just don’t have quality range time or service time to make a true and accurate judgement. That’s fine there are a lot of folks like you and it’s not a ding but an observation.
Thanks
I appreciate your opinion but having had quality hours of range time with all of the above, I will trust my judgement and experience over folks with next to zero range time/police/military time.

Btw I have had nothing but top notch customer service from Sig. some folks you just can’t please, no matter what’s sold and most folks on cal guns sad to say have nothing more than a dozen range time experiences and video game experience. Another fact.

Good day sir.
Roger that. I don't know anything. Any other insight feel free to share.

Last edited by Ej6fade; 06-15-2018 at 4:00 PM..
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  #31  
Old 06-15-2018, 5:05 PM
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MR556 upper can be found on gunbroker for $1300.
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  #32  
Old 06-15-2018, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless View Post
Ok so I am going to break it down for folks that are new or already into the AR game.

I will list 4 tiers. Regardless, they are pretty much what I have experienced as I have owned most of them or used them while on duty in the military. These are the top models by brand...

Top Tier: Starts at $1800

POF (prior owner of)
HK 556/762
LWRC (prior owner of)
Noveske
Sig Sauer (prior owner of)
BCM


Mid Tear: Starts at $1000

Daniel Defense (prior owner of)
Colt (prior owner)
LMT
FN Herstal (prior owner of)
Larue
Ruger (prior owner of)

Low Tier: Starts at $499

Spikes Tactical ( I realize Spikes tries to sell their ARs for like $1500+ but just not worth it)
Rock River Arms (prior owner of)
Windham Firearms (Best bang for the buck IMO and if you are starting out you just cannot beat Windham for the quality, customer service AND price. Rock River comes in second for beginners)
PSA
Smith & Wesson (prior owner of)
Aero Precision
Mossberg Tactical
Del-Ton

Budget Tier: (Absolute Worst ARs)

DPMS (prior owner of)
LMT is definitely NOT mid tier. Fake News.
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  #33  
Old 06-16-2018, 5:17 PM
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Noveske
KAC
HK
Barrett
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  #34  
Old 06-16-2018, 5:46 PM
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oh boy. go with what you can afford. people who are brand myopic are people who care more about how they look at the range than they can shoot, ignore them.
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Old 06-16-2018, 6:15 PM
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JP rifles. They make their own barrels and their complete AR rifles one of the best ones you can buy out there. They are well known in the 3 gun arena and military and law enforcement are adopting them.
I own their bull barrel AR15 and AR10 as a complete factory build and the 18” AR15 is still manageable to lug around for some free hand shooting. But not a suitable all day carry weapon. Their light contour is a nice compromise and in between the pencil and bull barrels.
Go to their website to take a look.
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  #36  
Old 06-16-2018, 10:31 PM
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sfarchitect sfarchitect is offline
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I could quibble with some of what Endless posted. But he's got it in essence.

Buy the best quality tool you can afford and learn how to operate it. It sounds like you've got the second part of that reasonably well covered.

Don't be dumb a** and buy a $1K rifle and then spend $2K over then next eighteen months adding new parts and modifying it. As someone once told me 'you can't polish a turd'. You'd be surprised how common this is. Its not unique to the AR world. But it is surprisingly common with AR's. Never understood that myself.

Also I want to advocate strongly for buying a complete weapon from one manufacturer. The individual parts are all toleranced and designed, right down to the metallurgy etc., to work together precisely.

I know all the 'mil-spec and you're good' guys are going to howl now. But mil-spec, despite common wisdom, is in fact surprisingly sloppy. This is really just arithmetic and probabilities. The more different manufacturer's parts you add into any one weapon, all of which are designed/toleranced just ever so slightly differently, the more unknowns/variables and therefore uncertainty you add into the operation of that weapon.

There are certain things in life that, when you need them, just gotta' freakin' work. This is one of those things.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 06-16-2018 at 10:36 PM..
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  #37  
Old 06-17-2018, 3:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufflers View Post
Is this the chart? Where is the most up to date chart?

It's been sort of a running joke, among those of us who were around when Rob came up with the ORIGINAL chart 10 years ago. Some brands that were around then (Charles Daly) are gone now, while others have improved somewhat (CMMG) while others have come along, that weren't there then (Windham).



Rob's larger point (as reflected in the AR15Armory post), was: what constitutes quality COMPONENTS/tolerances, as opposed to mfg.name bashing/endorsement.


And nothing against Calguns, BUT... when I want the REAL dope on AR-15's... M4Carbine.net is my go-to site. Read FIRST, question SECOND, learn THIRD, purchase LAST.


Buy ONCE - CRY once.
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Old 06-17-2018, 7:56 PM
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Bought a S&W 15 off a calguner for 450 bucks. Like new. It shoots anything i feed it flawlessly even Tula steel case. It is more accurate than i am capable of using . Unless you are a target shooter using custom ammo i see no reason to spend a lot of money.
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