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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 09-05-2019, 11:01 AM
cufootball50 cufootball50 is offline
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Default Orange County CCW Reason

Hi Calguns
I finally moved out of LA county into OC and been thinking of getting a CCW for protection. I am a self employed real estate investor (not realtor) and wanted to know if anyone is still using the "It's my 2nd amendment right" as just cause still? Is OC accepting that, or do I need to explain my job and how I travel across CA and meet with unknown people and explore properties? Will they be asking for sufficient documents to prove that as well? Just want to try and be prepared as I start this process.
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Old 09-05-2019, 11:18 AM
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You can start here. Some of the GC are discussed here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...352774&page=77
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Old 09-05-2019, 11:37 AM
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In short. No. For some time now we have been back to a more liberalized, but nonetheless required "good cause". Since the new sheriff took over, we have seen an uptick in denials. Things like "I walk my dog late at night" etc. no longer cut it. They tend to focus on work type requirements, so you should focus on that.
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Old 09-05-2019, 5:06 PM
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Welcome to OC!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cufootball50 View Post
Hi Calguns
I finally moved out of LA county into OC and been thinking of getting a CCW for protection. I am a self employed real estate investor (not realtor) and wanted to know if anyone is still using the "It's my 2nd amendment right" as just cause still? Is OC accepting that ...
No. That doesn't work any more. It used to work, back around 2014-2015 (people simply used "self defense" as the reason), but that is no longer acceptable in OC. You need to elaborate a little bit.

This whole "state your Good Cause" process is a "CYA" process. When developing your Good Cause statement, you gotta think about it from their point of view. They need to be able to justify a plausible reason why they issued you a permit. You need to put yourself in their place (rather than being too explanatory or stating some desperate/lame attempt to provide a reason). As previously stated, "walking the dog late at night" probably won't cut it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cufootball50 View Post
... or do I need to explain my job and how I travel across CA and meet with unknown people and explore properties?
You need to explain that in detail, and that, to me, looks like a good reason. In fact, it is similar to my Good Cause story... and I have renewed and been approved twice (including the new administration) with that similar reason.

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Originally Posted by cufootball50 View Post
Will they be asking for sufficient documents to prove that as well? Just want to try and be prepared as I start this process.
Absolutely yes. You need to provide strong evidence to support your story.

Some tips:

- My Good Cause statement was about 5 paragraphs long, about 3/4 page.
- I gave a brief background about myself (few sentences) before I stated my Good Cause
- I did not wait for them to ask for evidence from me. I provided as much supporting documents as I could along with the application. More is better. (that doesn't mean send them a hundred pages).
- I also stated other supporting good causes why I feel I need a CCW Permit.
- I indicated numerous firearms classes, training I took, outside of what is the basic required.

Hope that helps, Good luck!
.

Last edited by caliberetta; 09-05-2019 at 5:13 PM..
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  #5  
Old 09-05-2019, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
Welcome to OC!!!



No. That doesn't work any more. It used to work, back around 2014-2015 (people simply used "self defense" as the reason), but that is no longer acceptable in OC. You need to elaborate a little bit.

This whole "state your Good Cause" process is a "CYA" process. When developing your Good Cause statement, you gotta think about it from their point of view. They need to be able to justify a plausible reason why they issued you a permit. You need to put yourself in their place (rather than being too explanatory or stating some desperate/lame attempt to provide a reason). As previously stated, "walking the dog late at night" probably won't cut it.



You need to explain that in detail, and that, to me, looks like a good reason. In fact, it is similar to my Good Cause story... and I have renewed and been approved twice (including the new administration) with that similar reason.



Absolutely yes. You need to provide strong evidence to support your story.

Some tips:

- My Good Cause statement was about 5 paragraphs long, about 3/4 page.
- I gave a brief background about myself (few sentences) before I stated my Good Cause
- I did not wait for them to ask for evidence from me. I provided as much supporting documents as I could along with the application. More is better. (that doesn't mean send them a hundred pages).
- I also stated other supporting good causes why I feel I need a CCW Permit.
- I indicated numerous firearms classes, training I took, outside of what is the basic required.

Hope that helps, Good luck!
.
Good feedback! This should give OP some guidance.
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:55 PM
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Your good cause statement needs to identify risks unmitigated by typical law enforcement protections. If your employment has you visiting vacant properties, foreclosed properties, potential rental applicants or similar, chances are very good that you will meet the Good Cause requirements of the OCSD.

In a worst-case scenario your Good Cause statement(s) may come under intense legal scrutiny thus should be well thought out and defensible. IOW, don't overstate your Good Cause. Better not to carry than to carry under false promises imo. A ruling that the CCW license was obtained under false promises might also negatively impact insurance coverage.

Best success.
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2019, 1:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
Welcome to OC!!!



No. That doesn't work any more. It used to work, back around 2014-2015 (people simply used "self defense" as the reason), but that is no longer acceptable in OC. You need to elaborate a little bit.

This whole "state your Good Cause" process is a "CYA" process. When developing your Good Cause statement, you gotta think about it from their point of view. They need to be able to justify a plausible reason why they issued you a permit. You need to put yourself in their place (rather than being too explanatory or stating some desperate/lame attempt to provide a reason). As previously stated, "walking the dog late at night" probably won't cut it.



You need to explain that in detail, and that, to me, looks like a good reason. In fact, it is similar to my Good Cause story... and I have renewed and been approved twice (including the new administration) with that similar reason.



Absolutely yes. You need to provide strong evidence to support your story.

Some tips:

- My Good Cause statement was about 5 paragraphs long, about 3/4 page.
- I gave a brief background about myself (few sentences) before I stated my Good Cause
- I did not wait for them to ask for evidence from me. I provided as much supporting documents as I could along with the application. More is better. (that doesn't mean send them a hundred pages).
- I also stated other supporting good causes why I feel I need a CCW Permit.
- I indicated numerous firearms classes, training I took, outside of what is the basic required.

Hope that helps, Good luck!
.
Good advise, I am drafting up a good cause statement as i read through this thread. Can i send you my draft and let me know give feedback. I have also have gotten a letter from work to support my good cause that i will submit as well.

Quote:
- I indicated numerous firearms classes, training I took, outside of what is the basic required.
did you attach receipts to indicate the additional training?
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Old 09-12-2019, 7:55 AM
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I would encourage all of you considering your GC to take the free Pre-CCW class offered by Artemis if your schedule permits. They run it at least a couple of times a month, usually in Lake Forest, but occasionally at the CRPA HQ in Fullerton. They have one tonight (9/12) at 6:00 p.m. in Fullerton, and another tomorrow night in Lake Forest.

That free class is taught by Steven Lieberman, a lawyer who specializes in use-of-force.

When I went-- and this was a pivotal experience for me, basically what got me to apply for my permit-- I was able to talk with Lieberman one-on-one, and he was very helpful at helping me understand how to articulate GC in a way that OCSD needs to have it. This is a guy who normally charges a nominal fee to consult on GC statements, and has reviewed hundreds, if not thousands. I think for that reason alone, I recommend making time for this.

I had many questions before I applied, and attending one of these Pre-CCW classes provided answers to every question and concern that I had. It was very eye-opening for me, and I can't recommend it strongly enough.
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  #9  
Old 09-12-2019, 1:51 PM
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+1 for the Pre-CCW course, and Artemis Defense as a whole.
If you are hesitant about your GC, absolutely make it to this class.

I've taken just about every class they offer, multiple times.
In my opinion...they offer the best training in the area, hands down.
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:08 PM
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I too am going to apply OC CCW very soon. I have 2 concerns.

Firstly I have 2 detained and release back in the day. One in 97 and 1 in 2005. No charges were ever filled so they are not considered arrests. I know to list them but is that going to disqualify me? I can and have purchased several firearms since those law enforcement interactions.

And my CG statement is 2 part. I spend a ton of time in the woods hiking and camping with my family, secondly I am a pastor and work with drug addicts and bikers quite a bit. We help to get them clean and into recovery programs, getting them away from that lifestyle and we get into very sketchy scary situations where personal safety is a very big concern.

I've got a GC statement but don't know if I should post it here online

Any advice is appreciated, and didn't mean to hijack the Op

Last edited by KINGSFAN IN OC; 09-13-2019 at 11:09 PM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 09-16-2019, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGSFAN IN OC View Post
I too am going to apply OC CCW very soon. I have 2 concerns.

[...]

Any advice is appreciated, and didn't mean to hijack the Op
Regarding the detainments, a significant factor seems to be whether they have a so-called FBI number attached. If they do, it would probably be in your interest to take the lead and obtain something in writing from the local LEO agency(ies) that detained you. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think they want something that plainly states the disposition of the "law enforcement interactions," i.e., no charges filed, or whatever the local record shows.

I'll repeat my upthread advice, because were I in your shoes, I think it would be even more relevant in that it provides you with a free opportunity to pick the brains of an experienced attorney who would know the answer to your question.

Artemis isn't scheduled to do another of the free Pre-CCW classes at the CRPA office in Fullerton until December, but they have one at their office in Lake Forest on 9/28, and one more in October.
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  #12  
Old 09-16-2019, 1:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGSFAN IN OC View Post
I too am going to apply OC CCW very soon. I have 2 concerns.

Firstly I have 2 detained and release back in the day. One in 97 and 1 in 2005. No charges were ever filled so they are not considered arrests. I know to list them but is that going to disqualify me? I can and have purchased several firearms since those law enforcement interactions.

And my CG statement is 2 part. I spend a ton of time in the woods hiking and camping with my family, secondly I am a pastor and work with drug addicts and bikers quite a bit. We help to get them clean and into recovery programs, getting them away from that lifestyle and we get into very sketchy scary situations where personal safety is a very big concern.

I've got a GC statement but don't know if I should post it here online

Any advice is appreciated, and didn't mean to hijack the Op
As indicated above, the old hiking and outdoors stuff really doesn't fly as well with this new sheriff. I would not recommend that. However, the pastor part and working with troubled youth( i.e. dangerous, unpredictable and potentially violent) WILL be a much better reason (IMO)
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Old 09-17-2019, 5:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL.BAR View Post
In short. No. For some time now we have been back to a more liberalized, but nonetheless required "good cause". Since the new sheriff took over, we have seen an uptick in denials. Things like "I walk my dog late at night" etc. no longer cut it. They tend to focus on work type requirements, so you should focus on that.
This is correct. A few of my friends got denied recently for these reasons.
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Old 09-17-2019, 6:51 AM
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This is correct. A few of my friends got denied recently for these reasons.
So the new sheriff is anti-gun after all? How in the world does frequent hiking/camping not put me at elevated risk of grave bodily harm beyond the reach of law enforcement resources? That's really upsetting and disappointing to hear after he campaigned so hard on being pro-CCW.
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Old 09-17-2019, 9:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
So the new sheriff is anti-gun after all? How in the world does frequent hiking/camping not put me at elevated risk of grave bodily harm beyond the reach of law enforcement resources? That's really upsetting and disappointing to hear after he campaigned so hard on being pro-CCW.
I agree. My girlfriend just applied too with similar reason and size (4’10). Now I’m wondering what might she get as a response. Interviewer was helpful though but he doesn’t make the final call.
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
So the new sheriff is anti-gun after all? How in the world does frequent hiking/camping not put me at elevated risk of grave bodily harm beyond the reach of law enforcement resources? That's really upsetting and disappointing to hear after he campaigned so hard on being pro-CCW.
And that is why my vote didn't go to him. I agree with you 100% on this. Previous sheriff was a lot more lenient as long as you can show proof. I guess he did whatever it took to win the votes. In time, I can only see less and less people approved for CCW. I seriously hope I'm wrong!
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Old 09-17-2019, 6:07 PM
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I'm unclear as to when people are getting denied. In my interview with the OCSD deputy I told her that I was waiting on conditional approval before purchasing a gun and signing up for the class. She told me she was giving me that now. Barring any Live Scan or other issues I would hope that it wouldn't come down to the end and they deny me for my "just cause" reasons or on some sort of a whim (we didn't even discuss them in the interview). I've spent over a grand on miscellaneous crap and it would all be for naught if I was denied my CCW permit.
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Old 09-17-2019, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpatrick View Post
I'm unclear as to when people are getting denied. In my interview with the OCSD deputy I told her that I was waiting on conditional approval before purchasing a gun and signing up for the class. She told me she was giving me that now. Barring any Live Scan or other issues I would hope that it wouldn't come down to the end and they deny me for my "just cause" reasons or on some sort of a whim (we didn't even discuss them in the interview). I've spent over a grand on miscellaneous crap and it would all be for naught if I was denied my CCW permit.
So you currently don't own a pistol?
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Old 09-18-2019, 4:58 AM
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So you currently don't own a pistol?
I do now.
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Old 09-18-2019, 8:16 AM
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I'm unclear as to when people are getting denied. In my interview with the OCSD deputy I told her that I was waiting on conditional approval before purchasing a gun and signing up for the class. She told me she was giving me that now.
Wait... I'm confused here. So the deputy who interviewed you "basically" gave you, your conditional approval on the spot, no training certs, no registered firearms, no residential check? From my past experience the decision doesn't come from your interviewing deputy. Your interviewer collects the necessary paperwork, sorts it all out and then submits it up the chain of command for approval, once all OCSD guidelines have been met. I can see the process moving alot quicker if you're in a high ranking position within the city/state employment offices and all guidelines are met, but to get conditionally approved during your interview is very unlikely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpatrick View Post
I've spent over a grand on miscellaneous crap and it would all be for naught if I was denied my CCW permit.
I hope 50% of it is not to upgrade triggers and add slide cuts to a $500 glock?
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Old 09-18-2019, 9:23 AM
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You're a real estate investor, you go into empty buildings alone, sometimes necessary at night, sometimes you run into would be burglars, homeless, etc. Something along those lines.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
So the new sheriff is anti-gun after all? How in the world does frequent hiking/camping not put me at elevated risk of grave bodily harm beyond the reach of law enforcement resources? That's really upsetting and disappointing to hear after he campaigned so hard on being pro-CCW.
According to this poll no one has gotten denied.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1548489
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by igs View Post
According to this poll no one has gotten denied.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1548489
Eh, your poll has a whopping 12 respondents, and was active for one day in July 2019. Previous posts have implied that this tightening of Good Cause requirements has been a recent change, although we don’t know how recent. Sorry to say it, but your poll doesn’t really prove anything and is just as anecdotal as the other posts in this thread stating that people have been denied.
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Old 09-18-2019, 6:32 PM
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His good cause was over a page long (hiking, camping, walking the dog at night, crime stats, etc...) and they still said no.

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Old 09-18-2019, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingCode3 View Post
His good cause was over a page long (hiking, camping, walking the dog at night, crime stats, etc...) and they still said no.

Isn’t that what a CCW is, for PERSONAL PROTECTION? Carrying large amounts of valuables or money makes my life worth more than someone that doesn’t?
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Old 09-18-2019, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC View Post
Isn’t that what a CCW is, for PERSONAL PROTECTION? Carrying large amounts of valuables or money makes my life worth more than someone that doesn’t?
- depends on the county
- personal protection may not be specific enough
- be specific
- cash carrying seems like good cause to me

- don't use 'ordinary person' reasons like hiking and dog walking

- use SPECIAL reasons, like contractor/merchant/owner doing cash sales and leaving with alot of cash/tools/supplies/valuables in hand daily

- have you been threatened? list that, etc






.
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Old 09-18-2019, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by starlight View Post
- depends on the county
- personal protection may not be specific enough
- be specific
- cash carrying seems like good cause to me

- don't use 'ordinary person' reasons like hiking and dog walking

- use SPECIAL reasons, like contractor/merchant/owner doing cash sales and leaving with alot of cash/tools/supplies/valuables in hand daily

- have you been threatened? list that, etc





.
Yeah but he mentioned that the applicant used hiking etc as part of it. IA deemed that as personal protection reason. Is hiking ordinary?
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Old 09-18-2019, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
Eh, your poll has a whopping 12 respondents, and was active for one day in July 2019. Previous posts have implied that this tightening of Good Cause requirements has been a recent change, although we don’t know how recent. Sorry to say it, but your poll doesn’t really prove anything and is just as anecdotal as the other posts in this thread stating that people have been denied.
That's my point, there is misinformation somewhere.
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Old 09-19-2019, 4:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingCode3 View Post
His good cause was over a page long (hiking, camping, walking the dog at night, crime stats, etc...) and they still said no.

Did they not tell him that in the interview?
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Old 09-19-2019, 6:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RollingCode3 View Post
His good cause was over a page long (hiking, camping, walking the dog at night, crime stats, etc...) and they still said no.

Wow. I realize this is just one confirmed case, but if this is what’s happening, we can consider OC to have pretty much reversed their stance on ccw. This is disappointing.

Imagine having to beg and grovel to exercise your other civil rights like they’re making us do for CCWs. “Your request for a Free Speech Permit does not meet our current guidelines. ‘Personal Expression’ is not a valid reason for us to issue you a Free Speech Permit.”
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:08 AM
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9cal,

Yes, hiking is "ordinary"

They are looking for extra-ordinary reasons (good cause counties)

Outline the extra-ordinary reasons.

Right or wrong, laws supersede "rights" in this country...




.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:20 PM
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9cal,

Yes, hiking is "ordinary"

They are looking for extra-ordinary reasons (good cause counties)

Outline the extra-ordinary reasons.

Right or wrong, laws supersede "rights" in this country...

.
Starlight, the reason people are upset about this is that OC was accepting that as good cause, VERY recently. Read between the lines and you’ll be able to guess who in this thread got their CCW on that basis alone. And now those same people are being told that they may not even be allowed to renew their CCW, because they may not have those “extra-ordinary” reasons in their lives.

The outrage isn’t just that OC doesn’t consider hiking/camping good cause. It’s that they used to consider it good cause up til very recently, but they have apparently decided that those people don’t deserve to have a CCW anymore.
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Old 09-19-2019, 1:22 PM
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Tuna,

I totally understand the outrage. One set of rules, then suddenly the rules change...
Perhaps they can find an extra-ordinary reason and be able to renew... if not, there is always to option of moving to a different country.

Good luck to all



.
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  #34  
Old 09-19-2019, 1:34 PM
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downdiver2 downdiver2 is offline
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Real Estate is a pretty easy one. Even if yours is defined as investor.

You can mark down - walking properties in x neighborhoods, evictions taking place, evicted tenants could identify you, and possible properties you enter could have been evicted, short sale'd, or foreclosed on and you are never sure if there are occupants (Squatters even) or not.

I used real estate for mine.

I also, said the following with documents and pictures:

Personal sales in excess of $500 at a time (Craigslist, offer up, etc.)
Carrying cash in excess of $500 at a time (See above)
Off roading, camping, hiking in remote areas (Glamis, jawbowne, Barstow, el mirage, Pismo) with limited LEO resources and response times can be long. (I sent pictures of when I was at these locations).

And it was that easy, on my 3rd one now and 2nd one where I had to put a reason. Ive never been asked for more regarding my Good Cause. Our approval rating is upwards of 95%, so you would have to really not want one to be denied.

Welcome to the OC, the next LA (Based on Kathleen Porter), but we have a sheriff with a set on him larger than an elephant and he will/has (Fingers crossed) stood behind us, unlike the LA sheriff.
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Last edited by downdiver2; 09-19-2019 at 1:38 PM..
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  #35  
Old 09-19-2019, 2:21 PM
KINGSFAN IN OC KINGSFAN IN OC is offline
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I should have mentioned we have several thousand dollars of camera equipment with us when we are out and about. Its real easy to do when a Canon camera body is $900 and L-glass lenses are $1000 to $1600 each. We normally have 2 bodies 3 or 4 lenses plus a tripod in a camera backpack
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  #36  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:52 PM
Ldo Ldo is offline
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I used camping and offroading for my renewal GC and got approved recently.

My sugestion to you guys thinking of using the same reasons is to show them that you're not just camping at a state park or an RV lot. Drive a couple hours out to a desert or any remote areas, set up camp and take some photos, with yourself in those photos. Show them that you're hours away from help with limited means of communication. Tell them why you're a likely target for thugs, maybe because you have an expensive offroad setup, or you carry expensive toys or equipment, show receipts. Important thing to remember is that you don't need the weapon to protect your valuables, but having these valuables make you a target for possible deadly assaults, and the weapon is to protect your life in such assaults.

You just have to articulate your reasons to answer these simple questions: what makes you a target for assaults that can bring grave bodily injuries or death? Why can't you be assisted by others or authority in such attacks that a ccw is the only option? If you cannot answer those questions, you have a weak GC statement.
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