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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 66 8.02%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 552 67.07%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 18 2.19%
I paid too much for my Membership! 39 4.74%
They will go out of business this year! 21 2.55%
Don't want anything to do with them! 127 15.43%
Voters: 823. You may not vote on this poll

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  #321  
Old 07-17-2012, 12:06 AM
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I would be willing to entertain getting a few diamonds if you guys do receive the 20 extra diamonds at your diamond w alaska membership level.

PM me if you do not have any, so that I can examine the memberships that you do not have, so that maybe I can buy what does not exist.
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  #322  
Old 07-17-2012, 6:43 AM
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I predict this offer will devalue TBD Diamond Memberships. If there are suddenly thousands more memberships out there then people will have to be willing to sell them for less. I observed this when shopping for tbd memberships for my father and I a few weeks ago. Prices ranged from $1k to $200 per membership. Those who were asking more were surprised when I told them how little I paid and said they'd have to lower their price. Simple supply & demand economics.
Of course, this matters far less to FS who is really only concerned with selling them to current members. If anything, devalued memberships are likely to be underutilized, and that works just fine for FS.
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  #323  
Old 07-17-2012, 6:51 AM
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I told myself....don't reply...don't reply...I can't help it I have to.

Oh Brother, here we go again. The big news was just a marketing ploy to sell more memberships. What happened to "No more lifetime memberships are going to be sold, so buy now before the cut off....blah blah blah"
I guess I'm just not 100% committed and dedicated to the super secret mystery level of participation. I have a shirt (or 4) a FF cap, a lapel pin and you couldn't give me an FMK engraved or otherwise. I can buy a lot of embrodiery for $100.
Spemding $4,900 with only 50% of the total picture? Reminds me of Polisi selling Obamacare "We have to pass this to find out what it says" Buy now, find out later....
Naw, I'll buy ammo and attend all the Diamond classes I can schedule with my 5K.
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  #324  
Old 07-17-2012, 7:23 AM
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Good point. I can spend $5k upgrading and secure future classes. Or, I can limit my future potential and fund attending 10 classes now. But if I go that route, I don't have all those memberships I have to sell.
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  #325  
Old 07-17-2012, 7:42 AM
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These folks seem to be teaching classes at the Front Sight facility. The classes look interesting: http://www.combatdynamics.net/



Here is a review:

http://guntrainingcentral.com/review-15.html
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Last edited by AAShooter; 07-17-2012 at 7:45 AM..
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  #326  
Old 07-17-2012, 9:33 AM
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I already have a diamond membership...but here's my two cents.

I won't be spending 4900 on this vapor plan. We have yet to know what it comes with.

Think about this...you can go to a lot of known good training classes for 4900. Costa, etc...you name it.

I like front sight, enjoy it, and plan kn going for years to come.

I have reservations about these offers appearing to be pleas to pay their bills and payroll for another month every time they pop up.
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  #327  
Old 07-17-2012, 9:47 AM
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People have had concerns about the promotional offers from FS for over a decade. Not to say they aren't valid but realize "the sky is falling" has been echoing for many years.
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  #328  
Old 07-17-2012, 2:08 PM
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Membership Type: Diamond
Membership Date: April 2012
Courses Taken: 4DDH - June 2012
Next Course: Not sure yet, probably Practical Rifle
Comments: Mixed feelings about the place. Went with my wife and two adult sons. Great for the boys, a struggle for my wife, problematic for me. Better title for DH would be "shooting a defensive handgun" since it doesn't address the realities of handgun combat and some of what they teach could get you killed. Good shooting training however. Wife struggled with "basic skills" which they told me not to teach her in advance (working the slide on her pistol for example) but which she was expected to know when we got there.
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  #329  
Old 07-17-2012, 2:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmorgan View Post
. . . some of what they teach could get you killed. . . .
Care to elaborate on the problematic areas?
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  #330  
Old 07-17-2012, 2:19 PM
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Even the staff at FS seems to be getting tired of Piazza's games. Big problem, I think, is that he expected to "make a mint" off of related real estate business that never came to fruition. Seems like a man who can't "cut his coat to fit his cloth" and really believes that "the big one" is just around the corner if he can get there.

As we said in my business years ago, "needs to drink less coffee."

Don't know what to make of the latest round of marketing blather. Wish he would turn his attention to running a gun training business with the "a quality product sells itself" mindset. There is lots he could do with the "base" he already has, but he seems to be a man following his vision rather than tending to business.

RSM
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  #331  
Old 07-17-2012, 2:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Care to elaborate on the problematic areas?
I will in later posts. Big thing is that real combat training needs to be on what you can and will do under extreme stress, not on shooting nice holes in a paper target by assuming the Weaver stance, closing one eye and focusing on the front sight.

RSM
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  #332  
Old 07-17-2012, 2:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmorgan View Post
I will in later posts. Big thing is that real combat training needs to be on what you can and will do under extreme stress, not on shooting nice holes in a paper target by assuming the Weaver stance, closing one eye and focusing on the front sight.

RSM
I think some of the advanced classes will be of more interest. Tactical scenerios work much more on skills like that. I think this is a common complaint about FS but people seem to forget that this is one class of many for handgun.
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  #333  
Old 07-17-2012, 3:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmorgan View Post
I will in later posts. Big thing is that real combat training needs to be on what you can and will do under extreme stress, not on shooting nice holes in a paper target by assuming the Weaver stance, closing one eye and focusing on the front sight.

RSM
Gotta learn to crawl before you can walk and run. If you can't shoot nice holes in paper standing still you have no basis to work off of when it comes to shooting while moving or in concealment.
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  #334  
Old 07-17-2012, 3:27 PM
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i got every e-mail talking about this amazing news including the e-mail talking about the exact hour that I would get this email and it never came...haha. Fail. I love that i was told i would get more memberships for the extras i already bought and now it sounds much different. especially when they said they would not be sold after new years. I like the training but I am totally sick of the rest
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  #335  
Old 07-17-2012, 5:11 PM
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I had a voicemail from Iggy today urging me to get with the program. Sadly, I couldn't tell him no thanks directly...
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  #336  
Old 07-17-2012, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edrex View Post
Gotta learn to crawl before you can walk and run. If you can't shoot nice holes in paper standing still you have no basis to work off of when it comes to shooting while moving or in concealment.
I agree with you that you need the basic skills before you can handle more complex tasks. As I said, it seemed to me that FS was providing good shooting training. Once I figured-out that it was a shooting class and not a fighting class I didn't have too much in the way of problems with what they were doing. However, they teach the class with a lot of talk about "defensive shooting" but the truth is that the people coming out of the 4DDH class do not have anything like the skill set needed to survive a gunfight. Based on what they have been told, however, I worry that they may think that they do. (I had to work very hard to disabuse our sons' opinion of their skill level.)

My beef isn't so much with the training itself as it is with the "teaching talk" that goes with the training. I think the students would be much better served by making it very clear that the 4DDH is only a shooting skills class.

I also have a more personal beef in that the instruction does not recognize that people may come to the class with valid prior training and background. I tried to "play the game by their rules" but because I was trying to change too many things at one time I believe that I was shooting faster and more accurately on Day 1 than I was on Day 4. I learned some interesting and useful things, but I had to put a lot of effort into retraining myself back to what works for me after I came back from FS. The curriculum and schedule is simply too rigid and does not do a good job at accommodating individuals with existing skills. "The Front Sight way" isn't the only way.

RSM
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  #337  
Old 07-18-2012, 6:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmorgan View Post
I agree with you that you need the basic skills before you can handle more complex tasks. As I said, it seemed to me that FS was providing good shooting training. Once I figured-out that it was a shooting class and not a fighting class I didn't have too much in the way of problems with what they were doing. However, they teach the class with a lot of talk about "defensive shooting" but the truth is that the people coming out of the 4DDH class do not have anything like the skill set needed to survive a gunfight. Based on what they have been told, however, I worry that they may think that they do. (I had to work very hard to disabuse our sons' opinion of their skill level.)

My beef isn't so much with the training itself as it is with the "teaching talk" that goes with the training. I think the students would be much better served by making it very clear that the 4DDH is only a shooting skills class.

I also have a more personal beef in that the instruction does not recognize that people may come to the class with valid prior training and background. I tried to "play the game by their rules" but because I was trying to change too many things at one time I believe that I was shooting faster and more accurately on Day 1 than I was on Day 4. I learned some interesting and useful things, but I had to put a lot of effort into retraining myself back to what works for me after I came back from FS. The curriculum and schedule is simply too rigid and does not do a good job at accommodating individuals with existing skills. "The Front Sight way" isn't the only way.

RSM
I will agree that the Front Sight way is not the only way, but you also have to look at it from their side. They train hundreds of people every weekend, and those hundreds all have different backgrounds and different skill sets. If they tried to teach everyone differently to accomodate previous training they may or may not have had, nothing would get done. I have trained with several different outfits and always try to learn their method and incorperate it into my toolbox of skills. Weaver works well in some instances, ISO in many others. I have seen ISO shooters at Front Sight, and in many instances, they were helped to get better at shooting ISO by the line coaches. Just for giggles, I shot an entire 4 day class from my support side with one of their rental guns. I know my form was not perfect, but they still helped me learn to shoot fast and accurately from "the other side"...
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  #338  
Old 07-18-2012, 7:36 AM
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I appreciate the fact that now in the Handgun Combat Master Prep course they announce that the training will have nothing to do with "combat" but more specifically some skill sets that could/would or will be called upon to prevail in a gunfight.
The basic 4 day defensive handgun class is an entry level, lowest common demoninator, type class. It will demonstrate a way of doing things and I agree some folks leave there after 4 days thinking they are an "operator" but on the up side some walk away knowing they don't know nearly enough and return time and time again to improve. Nothing wrong with that.
Basic skills sets are necessary before anything more advanced can be introduced to a student with any expectations of success.
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  #339  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:14 AM
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Can anyone that has bought this new ultra highest level membership with FS tell the rest of us if they got an email with the rest of the spectacular news?

I am on the fence as to whether to buy it or not and if I knew the rest of this spectacular news it might make my decision a little easier.

I already have the diamond membership and I attended the 4DDH course this past April.
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  #340  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:17 AM
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How strict is FS with verifying prerequisites before allowing you to take a more advanced class?

Looking at taking the Handgun Skill Builders and it states you must have taken a 2-day or 4-day def handgun within the past 12 months. I might be over 12 months since I've taken the 2-day and I really don't want to take the 2-day or 4-day again.
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  #341  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapro View Post
How strict is FS with verifying prerequisites before allowing you to take a more advanced class?

Looking at taking the Handgun Skill Builders and it states you must have taken a 2-day or 4-day def handgun within the past 12 months. I might be over 12 months since I've taken the 2-day and I really don't want to take the 2-day or 4-day again.
They are very strict on the prerequisites. They want to make sure the class moves at the proper pace without newer shooters slowing the class down, or being in over their heads. In order to get the most out of the skill builder you really should have taken the 4 day defensive handgun. In the 4 day, you learn presentation from concealment under time pressure over the course of the last two days. You will be behind the curve in the skill builder if you have not done presentation from concealment on static targets. The skill builder will be doing it on the timed turning targets in basically one day. If you have taken a skill builder in the past, they will let you in regardless of how long it has been since your 2 day or 4 day class, as you have already seen all the material before.

If you have other credentials such as training from other schools, or competetive shooting, try calling them and discussing it. Worst thing they can do is say no...
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  #342  
Old 07-19-2012, 9:48 PM
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Membership: Diamond + AK
No courses taken (yet)

Thinking (almost) seriously about going toward the second week of October after the GRPC in FL, for the Four-Day Handgun Midweek (10/08) and Four-Day Rifle Weekend (10/12) Course, but should ask if taking back to back courses is "practical" (can't think of any other puns)...

Erik.
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  #343  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
Membership: Diamond + AK
No courses taken (yet)

Thinking (almost) seriously about going toward the second week of October after the GRPC in FL, for the Four-Day Handgun Midweek (10/08) and Four-Day Rifle Weekend (10/12) Course, but should ask if taking back to back courses is "practical" (can't think of any other puns)...

Erik.
It would be a pretty intense 8 days. It probably comes down to how long you can "keep an edge" to get the most out of the training. I was feeling pretty "beat" after 5 days, but I'm 62, overweight and was having a heck of a time with the heat.

From what I understand, at least you would have about the best weather FS has to offer.

RSM
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  #344  
Old 07-20-2012, 5:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
Thinking (almost) seriously about going toward the second week of October after the GRPC in FL, for the Four-Day Handgun Midweek (10/08) and Four-Day Rifle Weekend (10/12) Course, but should ask if taking back to back courses is "practical" (can't think of any other puns)...
Not that unusual. I've spoke with many other students who were taking back to back courses. Usually they are from farther away and want to maximize their travel expense or vacation. Just know your limitation, relax and enjoy your time out there.

Last edited by acegunnr; 07-20-2012 at 10:36 AM..
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  #345  
Old 07-20-2012, 12:53 PM
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I know a guy at my gun club that took 2 weeks off from work and took 3 four day courses. He is in his 50's and had a great time.
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  #346  
Old 07-20-2012, 3:41 PM
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I have been on the fence with the whole Front Sight thing,but I think I might as well try it out. From what I gather, I would want just a standard Diamond membership? If anyone has one available, plz PM me. Might also want one for my girlfriend. Thanks!
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  #347  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapro View Post
would love to hear how long you all have been waiting or waited for their free handgun for those that bought those offers.
My FFL finally received my "free" XD-9 from Front Sight. However, Front Sight included an invoice showing an MSRP of $549.00! Although my FFL knows it was a free offer, they have no choice but to charge me sales tax (CA law) based on $549.00 unless Front Sight can provide some documentation that there was no charge for handgun. I've contacted FS to no avail. Anybody in the same boat? Did you have to pay sales tax as well? Anybody's input is greatly appreciated.
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  #348  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by socal425 View Post
My FFL finally received my "free" XD-9 from Front Sight. However, Front Sight included an invoice showing an MSRP of $549.00! Although my FFL knows it was a free offer, they have no choice but to charge me sales tax (CA law) based on $549.00 unless Front Sight can provide some documentation that there was no charge for handgun. I've contacted FS to no avail. Anybody in the same boat? Did you have to pay sales tax as well? Anybody's input is greatly appreciated.
My FFL told me they can use a copy of the original paperwork that was sent in that indicated the price was "free". Good luck.
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  #349  
Old 07-21-2012, 6:28 PM
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My FFL told me they can use a copy of the original paperwork that was sent in that indicated the price was "free". Good luck.
That sounds like a plan. Thanks.
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  #350  
Old 07-25-2012, 7:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal425 View Post
My FFL finally received my "free" XD-9 from Front Sight. However, Front Sight included an invoice showing an MSRP of $549.00! Although my FFL knows it was a free offer, they have no choice but to charge me sales tax (CA law) based on $549.00 unless Front Sight can provide some documentation that there was no charge for handgun. I've contacted FS to no avail. Anybody in the same boat? Did you have to pay sales tax as well? Anybody's input is greatly appreciated.
Me, my brother and my dad are all still waiting for our XDs. When did you send in your certificate?
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  #351  
Old 07-25-2012, 2:49 PM
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Me, my brother and my dad are all still waiting for our XDs. When did you send in your certificate?
Last year around July or August. It was a long "6 to 8 weeks."
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  #352  
Old 07-26-2012, 7:41 PM
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I had to cancel my trip unfortunately
Was really looking forward to going with the whole family including kids
Anyone have evaluation of the "children and youth achievement"

With the latest offer from front sight
Are the diamonds going to become worth less or quite diminished
Will the diamonds offered as bonuses be wanted
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  #353  
Old 07-28-2012, 6:26 PM
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Default Just an FYI if it hasn't already been seen.

A Disneyland for gun lovers
Monday, February 20, 2012

Cynthia Calvert

Frank McCrady, president and CEO of the East Montgomery County Improvement District (EMCID), announced last week that a preliminary agreement has been made with Front Sight Firearms Training Centers to build a facility in East County. McCrady said the project will bring significant economic impact.

The firing range project, which has an interesting connection to the questionable dinosaur theme park, EarthQuest, supposedly coming to East County, also brings a controversial history.

Front Sight's headquarters is located in Pahrump, Nev., the same community that former EarthQuest consultants Don Holbrook and Chris Brown have contracted with to develop a theme park in that rural area.

According to the Pahrump Valley Times [10-12-2011], after the EarthQuest project stalled, Holbrook entered a contract with the rural, economically depressed Nevada community to present the efficacy of building Think Tank!, a park where visitors can drive armored tanks. Holbrook prepared a report for the town saying that Think Tank! would be a place, “Where guests would be able to drive a military tank ... in a fun, safe environment.” There would also be obstacles with special effects and explosions.

Holbrook added that millions more could be gleaned from tourists if Pahrump were to expand on that idea and build 'Adventure Springs,' which would include the tank/explosion range along with a movie, a lake, a visitor center, a town, a hotel with a water park, a family entertainment center, a golf range, an event space and retail and dining space.

Interestingly, this is the same situation that developed with EarthQuest, which went from a small idea called Project Rex, then became the $50 million Dino-City which eventually morphed into EarthQuest, a $600 million plus, 1600-acre resort with four “lands,” a museum, rides, special effects, a water park, hotels, conference center, restaurants, retail and office developments, with Holbrook involved every step of the way.

Front Sight has a controversial history in Pahrump. Matt Ward, editor of the Pahrump Valley Times, said that while the range is part of the peaceful community, it is known as a “gun nut heaven.” The owner, a former chiropractor named Ignatius Piazzo, originally touted the idea as a residential development with a total gun focus. Piazzo, according to KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, bought 550 acres in Pahrump in the late 1990s and promised to build ''the safest town in America' by building a 'Disneyland for Gun Lovers.'” KLAS-TV investigative reporter Colleen McCarty (www.8newsnow.com) said, “Thousands of people bought in with memberships ranging in price from a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most were guaranteed a lifetime of weapons training and six-figure deals, called platinum memberships, and were promised a one-acre home site.”

But the master-planned community never happened. Piazzo, according to McCarty and Pahrump Valley Times reporter Gina B. Good (archive.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2005/11/18/news/frontsight.html), was eventually sued by several of those members.

California attorney C. Keith Greer filed a class action lawsuit in November 2005 on behalf of several Front Sight members, alleging racketeering and fraud. Greer said Piazza de-frauded thousands for his own personal gain, Good reported. She also reported, “The action demands a jury trial under the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act. The 26-page complaint against Front Sight centers on membership benefits and promises. At the organization's inception in 1998, memberships were sold to fund construction of shooting ranges. Free classes for life with memberships that could be willed to family members were attractive to gun owners who sought professional training. Additional benefits - like home sites - were promised for higher priced memberships.”

Greer said, "Piazza took other people's money for investment capital to start his operation and then when he got it up and running, he hung them out to dry. Didn't follow through on the promises he made, didn't give them what they expected, didn't give them their money back."

Eventually, by June of 2009, in response to Piazza's refusal to pay a multi-million dollar settlement, a federal judge ordered a receiver to take control of Front Sight, its facilities, its operations and its assets (www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2009). Seven days later, Piazza made a financial offer and regained control of his property. According to the KLAS-TV, Front Sight still owes more than $5 million of the class action settlement.

Websites devoted to Front Site (www.thehighroad.org) have lengthy complaints that Piazza is a Scientologist or a former Scientologist. In fact, Piazza sued one of his former platinum members for writing in her blog that she believed him to be a member of the controversial organization (www.dianahsieh.com/frontsight/).

Pahrump Valley Times editor Matt Ward says a mysterious death that occurred on the property, along with the recession, stopped the home development side of the operation.

"A guy died out there, not by a gunshot, but it was some sort of accidental hanging. Then there was a big lawsuit and the home development just never happened,” he said. According to KLAS-TV, a range visitor died in 2007 in a zip line accident and a lawsuit did take four years before it was settled (www.8newsnow.com/story/15691632)

Front Sight failed to meet Nevada state fire safety standards numerous times, according to KLAS-TV reporter McCarty. The reporter said, “Front Sight has failed again to outfit its classroom building with fire safety basics like sprinklers, fire pumps and water. It's no surprise despite claims construction was on target; Front Sight has again failed to meet its deadline. This is the fourth such failure in the last two years.”

Controversy not withstanding, the Internet is also filled with glowing praise for Front Sight. Numerous blogs, letters, articles and news reports show there are many who vouch for the experience as exceptional, fun, beyond their expectations and that the gun range experience is excellent.

Courses range from $1,000 to $2,000 and the website (www.frontsight.com) is filled with dozens of testimonials, course offerings, and options to learn or enhance individual firearms proficiency.

Final arrangements with Front Sight is pending; the final site has not been chosen yet.

As with EarthQuest, McCrady is assuring taxpayers that the development will not cost them a penny. EarthQuest developers received millions of dollars from EMCID; taxpayers were given assurance that parking fees at EarthQuest and intellectual property rights will make up for the EarthQuest costs estimated to be as high as $10-15 million (The Tribune has made numerous requests of EMCID for the total number of dollars spent to date on the EarthQuest project but no answers have been provided). McCrady said the incentives given to Front Sight will come from rebates of sales taxes and other revenues generated by the new business itself.

“None of the incentives will come from any existing source or take away from current funding,” he said. “We’re looking at venue taxes to provide the incentive needed to bring these businesses to East County.”


© 2011 Ourtribune.com
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  #354  
Old 07-30-2012, 12:10 PM
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You knew it would happen, the only question was how creative the excuse would be - - - Well, the SPECTACULAR offer (Phase I) has been extended due to "unforeseen" mail issues...

So you still have time to get in on this never-to-be-repeated offer!
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  #355  
Old 07-30-2012, 7:24 PM
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Creative? Always a failure outside of the company. Phones, mail failures, etc etc.


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  #356  
Old 07-30-2012, 10:30 PM
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Membership type: Diamond
Membership Date: Nov 2011
Courses Taken: 4DDH -Graduate
Next Course: rifle course of some sort
Comments: I really enjoyed the training, and thought it was very good. The staff was great, and facilities are very nice. As for Dr. Piazza and his SUPER wordy emails, letters AND voicemails... STFU dude! I already have a membership and don't need another one.

For those of you staying in Parhaump while attending courses, DON'T GO TO THE LOCAL STRIP CLUB! Unless you want a good laugh and story about the worlds WORST strip club.
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  #357  
Old 07-30-2012, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSean View Post
For those of you staying in Parhaump while attending courses, DON'T GO TO THE LOCAL STRIP CLUB! Unless you want a good laugh and story about the worlds WORST strip club.
HA!! I always stay in Vegas... plenty of good stories to take home with me then...
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  #358  
Old 07-31-2012, 6:40 PM
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Membership: Diamond
Member Date: 2010
4 day handgun for my birthday this year

great facility and the training is better than average. The Instructors are very attentive and they really want you to be safe.

I hope thay stay in business, going back on Sept. for maybe an advance tactical.
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  #359  
Old 08-04-2012, 10:53 AM
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Just Bought their communicator membership as I'm planning on buying some land out that way. I have a bunch of transferable certificates as well, so I think I pretty well set.
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  #360  
Old 08-04-2012, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSean View Post
. . .

For those of you staying in Parhaump while attending courses, DON'T GO TO THE LOCAL STRIP CLUB! Unless you want a good laugh and story about the worlds WORST strip club.
I didn't even know P-town had a strip club.
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