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  #1  
Old 11-11-2017, 1:22 PM
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Default Realistically, how far can a .308 reach?

I know it depends on a lot. Id always read that .308 is really running out of steam about 1000-1100 yards or so.

I am putting together a Remingon 700 ss, 5r, 24Ē barrel, brake, timney trigger, 3.5x21X50 scope with a lot of elevation on a 20moa rail.

With say 175smks and a hand load, how far will this rig be able to put up decent groups?

Thanks.

Disclaimer, like most questions, ignorance is the reason i ask. Ive hit at 800 with a semi .308, but never tried anything beyond that.
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2017, 2:18 PM
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I would say at least 1500 yards, Iím sure a skilled marksman can hit beyond that.
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Old 11-11-2017, 4:43 PM
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All things being equal. 1300 meters is realistically the limit for accurate reliable repeatable hits.
I shoot the 175 SMK, along with the Nosler 175 RDF and when I can find them cheep enough 175 Bergers I’ve got 1300 plus rounds through a Rem 700 5R at or beyond 1000 yards. I’ve made accurate repetitive hits 1275 meters. That really about the limit.

As for a the 1500 yard posted above. Yeah well maybe if you are talking about one maybe two hits out of ten in low to no wind sure. But real world 1300 meters is it and that’s really pushing it.

Last edited by kcstott; 11-12-2017 at 1:57 AM..
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Old 11-11-2017, 6:19 PM
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Decent groups depends on a few factors but decent, for my 5R a out 1200 yards. It's reached out to a mile.. grouping was terrible! But we had a few hits out of 10 shots.

.308 will last awhile and easy to find ammo or reload. I have been using 175 SMK bullets because I have a bunch of them...

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:51 PM
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Depends on the velocity you can push those 175's. Untill it goes subsonic, it should group fine. Personally, I would call 1000 yards my max.
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Old 11-12-2017, 7:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDscar View Post
I would say at least 1500 yards, Iím sure a skilled marksman can hit beyond that.
Nope. Subsonic well before that. Not enough room in the case to push a 175 fast enough to get there.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:49 AM
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My son is active duty grunt. Last yr he was in a sniper platoon. Although not a true sniper he got to play with the M40A5. He was getting consistent hits past 1250 yards. They always rock with a can.
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Old 11-12-2017, 3:10 PM
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My son is active duty grunt. Last yr he was in a sniper platoon. Although not a true sniper he got to play with the M40A5. He was getting consistent hits past 1250 yards. They always rock with a can.
Range 117A is a KD and UK distance range,the .308 at 1400 yards is for familiarization only. In USMC Speak the 308 is at the wall at 1000 yards for a one shot hit and 1200 for a shot that can be compromised by wind or other environmental factors.
They use the 300 winmag for 1000 and beyond. Have there been shots made further than that with a 308? Sure. Is it what the USMC trains and teaches? Hell no. And the reason or is itís not reliable to expect solid hits beyond 1000 yards
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Old 11-12-2017, 3:56 PM
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Hand loads with 175 depending on ambient and other things should have around 1300 groups.

Too many variables though.
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2017, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I know it depends on a lot. Id always read that .308 is really running out of steam about 1000-1100 yards or so.

I am putting together a Remingon 700 ss, 5r, 24” barrel, brake, timney trigger, 3.5x21X50 scope with a lot of elevation on a 20moa rail.

With say 175smks and a hand load, how far will this rig be able to put up decent groups?

Thanks.

Disclaimer, like most questions, ignorance is the reason i ask. Ive hit at 800 with a semi .308, but never tried anything beyond that.
Air density will be the biggest factor.
The 24" barrel and the 175 SMK's are not helping.
Within 2 hours of los angeles, in places you can actually target shoot, I would say 1000 to 1100 is about it.
If you can get up to about 15,000ft elevation, you can shoot out to 1400yds or so.
Just bring your own oxygen because hiking around at 15,000ft sucks if you are not used to it.
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  #11  
Old 11-13-2017, 7:11 PM
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At 954 yards we do it all day with 168gr BTHP's and on a frankenstein AR308 16" rifle! Elevation 4500, dry air, calm day. You can push it further with heavier bullets. 175smk and the right combination of powder with primer should net you excellent results in bolt action with 24". Experimenting is the key here. Push it further once you ace certain distance.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2017, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Air density will be the biggest factor.
The 24" barrel and the 175 SMK's are not helping.
Within 2 hours of los angeles, in places you can actually target shoot, I would say 1000 to 1100 is about it.
If you can get up to about 15,000ft elevation, you can shoot out to 1400yds or so.
Just bring your own oxygen because hiking around at 15,000ft sucks if you are not used to it.
What bullet would be better? Is it the weight or the configuration?
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2017, 9:22 PM
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What bullet would be better? Is it the weight or the configuration?
Warner Flatlines.
But your twist rate will not really support them.
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Old 11-13-2017, 9:32 PM
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The 160 or 180 grain Warner Flatline bullets would both be better.
The untipped 175 Sierra MatchKing bullet has a 0.505 BC value while the 180 grain Warner Flatline is over 0.700 yet it shoots at a higher velocity.
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  #15  
Old 11-14-2017, 4:45 AM
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Whenever I am putting together a rig, the thing I ask myself is what is its Main purpose. If the main purpose is shooting at 1000 yards or beyond, I am only handicapping myself by shooting .308 no matter what the load or bullet. If I am only going to shoot some small percentage of total shots in the life of the rifle at LR, then its just a matter of testing a load that works for that rifle at that distance, that fall into the acceptable range. The more important issue is what do I expect will happen once the bullet gets out to 1000 yards. Do I want the best grouping, do I want the bullet to maintain power, am I hunting, or target shooting, or just plinking on a plate? Check scores on match shooting F-TR and Palma to see what .308 is capable of in capable hands for target work.

Here is a thread on the subject with some good information:http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek031.html
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Last edited by bridgeport; 11-14-2017 at 4:53 AM..
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Old 11-14-2017, 5:57 AM
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I’ll disagree with the Warner flatlines as I’ve had very good luck and improved scores with the Nosler RDF 175’s problem is they do not like to jump in my rifle. RDF’s have an advertised BC of .780 but how close that is to reality is another issue. I’ve been told by a number of top shooters the Flatlines are not jump tolerant so I’ve just avoided them.
Berger and Sierra jump just fine at mag length.

I’ll comment on Randals air density. Keep in mind this is my data and my rifle your results may vary. I’ve shot at the same range for two years on a nearly monthly basis, shot in all kinds of weather, and for me worst case was a .6 mil difference at 1000 yards. Air density shifts from 400 to 3500 feet and not enough to really matter on a NRA F class LR target.

Randall hinted at this, but the limitation is the barrel length and bullet weight combo, but with the right powder you can get 2750-70 all day long. Problem for me is the RDF’s don’t like 2770, they like 2710. We’ll find out how much better I can do when it comes time to rebarrel as in going to stick a 30” on it and call it good.

Last edited by kcstott; 11-14-2017 at 6:34 AM..
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Old 11-14-2017, 6:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
Whenever I am putting together a rig, the thing I ask myself is what is its Main purpose. If the main purpose is shooting at 1000 yards or beyond, I am only handicapping myself by shooting .308 no matter what the load or bullet. If I am only going to shoot some small percentage of total shots in the life of the rifle at LR, then its just a matter of testing a load that works for that rifle at that distance, that fall into the acceptable range. The more important issue is what do I expect will happen once the bullet gets out to 1000 yards. Do I want the best grouping, do I want the bullet to maintain power, am I hunting, or target shooting, or just plinking on a plate? Check scores on match shooting F-TR and Palma to see what .308 is capable of in capable hands for target work.

Here is a thread on the subject with some good information:http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek031.html
I appreciate that and agree.

Its a purpose built 600-1000 yard rig. I was clear in my mind about what i wanted, and i think i made good choices, but in doing so, i have gotten some input indicating its good for a bit more.

This thread was an effort to see what others have experienced in a similar rig.
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Old 11-14-2017, 6:44 AM
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The 308 is a good performer at long distance. If wind is not a major factor. Shooting F Class I’m limited at my range to military calibers at the present time. Once we get caliber waivers I’m getting a 6.5CM or a 6.5x47. In the mean time I’m going to build a .223 to shoot 90g SMK’s or Berger VLDs. The .223 performs very well at 1000 yards with a 30” barrel.

There are plenty of rounds out there with better wind bucking ability than the .308. But if you’re not competing it don’t matter much.
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Old 11-14-2017, 7:39 AM
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Iím limited at my range to military calibers at the present time.
Pendleton? I heard they have that restriction. Otherwise me and a couple of NorCal guys were thinking about coming down and shooting. (Mostly 6.5 CM / 260 variants)
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Old 11-14-2017, 8:13 AM
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Pendleton? I heard they have that restriction. Otherwise me and a couple of NorCal guys were thinking about coming down and shooting. (Mostly 6.5 CM / 260 variants)
Yeah. Range control got a hair up their butt. The club is working on waivers right now
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Old 11-15-2017, 1:37 PM
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Realistically, it depends on the environmental factors, how well you can read the wind, and how consistent your own handloads are.

With the flatlines you'll be limited in distance because once long skinny bullets like that start slowing down to around the speed of sound they'll become erratic. However so long as they're going fast enough they'll cut the wind very nicely.

Sierras are great and can be found pretty cheap, they're also very easy to tune for handloading.

The 185 Berger Hybrids/ Juggernauts are kind of interesting because they'll stay stable all the way down to 800fps (I tested this at 4,000 ft elevation) but they aren't the fastest or the cheapest. So you can really reach out and smack something at distance without them destabilizing but at the longer distances the drop is stupid and unless you can expertly judge the wind you'll bracket the target.
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Old 11-15-2017, 1:42 PM
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I’ve hit 1100 meters consistent with a Remy in 308 24” barrel. Didn’t go past that since I had no target. Heck I’ve hit the 1000 meter targets consistent with an AR chaimbered in 223 wylde using 62gr 5.56 Ammo. Barrel length is 18”.
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Old 11-19-2017, 11:57 AM
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Default Realistically, how far can a .308 reach?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I know it depends on a lot. Id always read that .308 is really running out of steam about 1000-1100 yards or so.



I am putting together a Remingon 700 ss, 5r, 24Ē barrel, brake, timney trigger, 3.5x21X50 scope with a lot of elevation on a 20moa rail.



With say 175smks and a hand load, how far will this rig be able to put up decent groups?



Thanks.



Disclaimer, like most questions, ignorance is the reason i ask. Ive hit at 800 with a semi .308, but never tried anything beyond that.


anything before it goes subsonic...there is a "turbulence boundary" where goes subsonic...

Last edited by Trakker; 11-27-2017 at 9:38 PM..
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Old 11-23-2017, 6:32 PM
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Yeah. Range control got a hair up their butt. The club is working on waivers right now
6.5x55, it's military. Swedish military.
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Old 11-24-2017, 4:36 AM
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6.5x55, it's military. Swedish military.
No it's worse than that, they have a form and if the caliber is not on the form, if they don't have a box to check it can't be used. and it has to be US military rounds. thats why a few guys were hoping that the US Army would adopt the 6.5 Creedmoore would make asking a question of range control a little easier as to why their forms are out of date and not reflecting correct in use calibers.
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Old 11-26-2017, 5:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I appreciate that and agree.

Its a purpose built 600-1000 yard rig. I was clear in my mind about what i wanted, and i think i made good choices, but in doing so, i have gotten some input indicating its good for a bit more.

This thread was an effort to see what others have experienced in a similar rig.
If you want to see what the 308 out to 1K yards will do, look no further than what the F T/R shooters are doing nowadays. There were two recent State matches, the CA and the AZ championships. Both winners in T/R displayed incredible accuracy out to 1K yards.

I know you are using a stock rifle, but if you really want to make an accurate .308 rig, my recommendation is to swap out the barrel for a 28-30" barrel, figure out what twist and chambering you are going to need to shoot the 200-215gr class bullets and go that route. The 175s, although adored by many, is not a world class bullet for target shooting out to 1K. It will work, but if you truly want to squeeze everything out of the 308 cartridge, you have to look at those who are pushing the limit and that is the T/R competitors.

They are using 28-30" barrels and 200-215 gr Berger bullets with custom chambers to shoot these heavy slugs. Contrary to popular belief, sending these heavy bullets fast is not always the best for accuracy. I'll leave it at that as to not give out the secret sauce.
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Old 11-27-2017, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
The 308 is a good performer at long distance. If wind is not a major factor. Shooting F Class I’m limited at my range to military calibers at the present time. Once we get caliber waivers I’m getting a 6.5CM or a 6.5x47. In the mean time I’m going to build a .223 to shoot 90g SMK’s or Berger VLDs. The .223 performs very well at 1000 yards with a 30” barrel.
You may also want to look at the new .224 Valkyrie.

edit: crap, forgot about the military caliber thing.
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Old 11-27-2017, 3:21 AM
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You may also want to look at the new .224 Valkyrie.

edit: crap, forgot about the military caliber thing.
Yep. need to stick with .308 or 5.56 for F TR, F Open is pretty much screwed on Pendleton right now.
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Old 11-27-2017, 6:49 AM
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Yep. need to stick with .308 or 5.56 for F TR, F Open is pretty much screwed on Pendleton right now.
I heard about it from the SM guys that the open calibers were restricted.

Sucks....

That is why you need to come up to Coalinga and Sacramento and shoot the March madness and State/Regional matches
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Old 11-28-2017, 9:42 AM
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Or you could throw reality to the wind and design a whole rifle around a (>$1) bullet to try to maximize performance in a 308 like these guys... a long action 308 loaded long, with a long, fast twist tube. They didn't say what the dope card looked like, but you could probably plug some numbers into your calculator if you were so inclined.

https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...lts-from-field

Quote:
Josh Kunz at Patriot Valley Arms (PVA) and I have been working on crazy project: a 308 that shoots with, or out-shoots, magnum cartridges shooting the best Berger bullets. Key to this is Josh's/Warner Tool's 198grain Flatline bullet: https://warner-tool.com/collections/...-caliber-198gr

The 308 rifle, built by PVA, is on a Big Horn long action, so it can feed the long 198gr from a magazine (we are using the Magpul 30-06 mag and its great). Barrel is a 8.7 twist Hawk Hill at roughly 30 inches. With Lapua small primer 308 brass and 47.0gr of 2000MR, it drives the 198gr comfortably at 2740 to 2770 fps (depending on temp). The resulting ballistics match/exceed a 300 Win Mag shooting 230gr Bergers, at least on paper.

Here is a picture of the rifle deployed:
308 PVA.jpg

This past weekend I got to put this idea into the field in the beautiful state of Montana. Below are some observations.

---
Location: near Three Forks MT, up in the hills.
Conditions: 4000 to 6000 density alt, 35 to 60* f. Wind 0 to 15mph+. Rainy/winter mix to sunny.
Targets: deployed from 1200 to 2150yds, approximately 20 to 30" in size.

See attached range map. Each of the white squares is a target location.

Cooper City ELR range card small.jpg

Ranges from Vectronic PRLF10. This unit had no problems returning target ranges with repeated 'same range' returns.

Spotting: Leica 15x binos, with spotting by my good buddy Oliver, who is a Montana local and another good buddy, Matt, who traveled with me from Virginia.

Ballistic solutions by my Kestrel 5700 AB. 198gr BC we were using: 0.410 G7 (derived from drag data provided by Hornady, customized to my MV's). MV was solved for dynamically based on the temperature sensitivity of the powder.

We had some issues with the optic on the rifle, which we worked thru, but this was a challenge.

Results: overall very good, I believe meeting the objective of creating a 308 that can shoot ELR with the magnum cartridges shooting the best Berger bullets.

Over 100rds fired against targets 1200yds and well beyond, with nearly all hitting target on 1st or 2nd round, and repeatedly. No problem shooting consistent impacts. Wind of course is the biggest challenge but the bullet wants to hold its line and hits were possible in changing wind conditions. Vertical was not a problem with consistent results on the vertical plain, close to the solutions provided by the Kestrel AB. At 198gr and still carrying nearly 700ft-lbs at 2000yds, splash and impacts are relatively easy to see, a huge factor in ELR shooting.

The load starts to get 'tired' after 1900yds or so. Wind and come-up gets harder here as the bullet is reaching the 1100fps tran-sonic barrier. Hits are possible but not easy.

Longest hit was at 2070yd and it was the first round. The 2nd round fired at 2070yd target also hit. I was not able to hit the final target, at 2150ish yards with the three rounds I sent at it. My buddy Matt, with a 7 SAUM shooting 180gr Bergers did hit it, on his third round. The 308 was right with the 7SAUM thru out the day, so I don't view the 2150yd failure as a NO GO.

Conclusion: Josh and Warner Tool has successfully pushed the ballistic edge with their Flatlines. These bullets clearly result in huge increase in hit percentage, operational range, and consistency.
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:36 AM
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I heard about it from the SM guys that the open calibers were restricted.

Sucks....

That is why you need to come up to Coalinga and Sacramento and shoot the March madness and State/Regional matches
Now I’ll be the first one to say that I chew people out for not being willing to drive to go shoot or get something fixed. But I’m sorry I wouldn’t drive to Sacramento at gun point. I’d fly and check my rifle. But I’m not driving.

Last edited by kcstott; 11-28-2017 at 5:04 PM..
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Old 11-28-2017, 5:14 PM
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Now Iíll be the first one to say that I chew people out for not being willing to drive to go shoot or get something fixed. But Iím sorry I wouldnít drive to Sacramento at gun point. Iíd fly and check my rifle. But Iím not driving.
I drove up to sacramento almost monthly to shoot on their 1k range for a couple years.
It's not that bad of a drive when you have friends along.
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Old 11-28-2017, 7:54 PM
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"But I’m sorry I wouldn’t drive to Sacramento at gun point."


Last edited by smoothy8500; 11-28-2017 at 8:01 PM..
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Old 11-29-2017, 3:32 AM
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I drove up to sacramento almost monthly to shoot on their 1k range for a couple years.
It's not that bad of a drive when you have friends along.

At the risk of sounding like a whinny little B**ch
I drove to livermore for work a few time a quarter to help out another branch. That drive sucks bakers field to Tracey is murder. You can see your destination... 300 miles away.

If they had a shoot that was two or three days long I might consider it.
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Old 11-29-2017, 3:33 AM
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"But Iím sorry I wouldnít drive to Sacramento at gun point."

I wouldn't expect anything less from you brother.
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:49 PM
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Be alive get a 6.5! A2
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Old 11-29-2017, 5:06 PM
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At the risk of sounding like a whinny little B**ch
I drove to livermore for work a few time a quarter to help out another branch. That drive sucks bakers field to Tracey is murder. You can see your destination... 300 miles away.

If they had a shoot that was two or three days long I might consider it.
The norcal precision rifle club runs a practice on Saturday and their match on Sunday.
So we always drove up Friday night, shot the practice Saturday morning and the match on sunday.
The practice was 10 minutes of open live fire from each firing line (2-3-5-6-8-9-1k) with spotters.
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Old 11-29-2017, 5:46 PM
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Or you could throw reality to the wind and design a whole rifle around a (>$1) bullet to try to maximize performance in a 308 like these guys... a long action 308 loaded long, with a long, fast twist tube. They didn't say what the dope card looked like, but you could probably plug some numbers into your calculator if you were so inclined.
Or do the same with .223 in a standard short action. Make the equivalent of the Valkyrie with the bullet sticking way out. Maybe cheat a little (do shooters cheat? Car racers do as much as they can get away with.) by reaming the chamber a smidge long and let the case blow out a tad. Just enough for a couple grains more powder.
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Old 11-29-2017, 5:48 PM
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I drove up to sacramento almost monthly to shoot on their 1k range for a couple years.
It's not that bad of a drive when you have friends along.
So now he has to go get friends too??
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Old 11-29-2017, 10:44 PM
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So now he has to go get friends too??
Yeah, that's not gonna happen...
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