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  #161  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Ridiculous. Im a cradle catholic, and thats nonsense.

The mass re enacts the last supper, and recited Jesus’ words to his apostles to take and eat his body and blood, BEFORE he was crucified, because the last supper was before he was crucified, and his instructions were to do so in his memory. There is no verbal or ritual crucifixion during any mass that i have ever attended except when a passion play is incorporated, and that is a separate event and not part of the sacrament of mass.

Eastern orthodox masses are identical.

The crucifixion is mentioned because Jesus died for our sins, it is not in any way a part of the mass. I have to wonder if you have ever attended a single catholic mass.

Despite your self appointed credentials, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I’m NOT a catholic at all and disagree with my “Christian” brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church on the “secondary” issues. Likewise they disagree with me. But we are all united on the core Christian doctrine and should not be divided on those core issues. We are all at Liberty to express our “secondary issues” as Christians and as C.S Lewis once eloquently said.

That being all said, I couldn’t agree with you more on your above quote and the emboldened part especially!
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  #162  
Old 11-13-2017, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by I Swan View Post
Well that didn't go well mentioning Catholic Mass. Anyways how about about the Catholic practice of confessing their sins to a priest and penance? I feel this a major difference of Catholics and Protestant beliefs also
It’s a secondary issue, so who cares? In core issues we Christians are all in unity. In the secondary issues, we have liberty. And in all things, charity.

Today, Catholics do NOT teach that confession of sins to a priest is a requirement of salvation.

... No I am NOT a catholic, but I have studied Catholicism relentlessly for almost 40 years now.
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  #163  
Old 11-13-2017, 11:16 PM
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For those who believe there are core issues and secondary issues:

He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. - John 12:48

I am not commenting on who is a Christian and who is not, but I am not sure there are any secondary issues when it comes to heeding God's word.
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  #164  
Old 11-14-2017, 4:09 AM
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How do you get to heaven in the RCC? Please answer.
Bill, I actually went over it in a small amount of detail with the promise that I would explain more from my personal knowledge, in the testimony I left for why I'm a Catholic, or more specifically why I'm a catechumen -- that is, someone who is studying and preparing for baptism and confirmation. Did you read my post back there?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches in its sections on justification that we can be assured of Christ's salvation, by grace freely given, believe a few things, and do a few things; in other words it involves faith and works. Faith and works are kind of inseparable though and you can see this in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which was a dual effort by Catholics and Lutherans that kind of explains how "by faith alone" and "by faith and by works" are kind of saying the same thing in a different way. I'd recommend reading that document online.

Anyways, for the Catholic way specifically, first we believe in Christ obviously, the stuff all Christians believe, in keeping the commandments, etc. We believe baptism is required too, and there are rules for what constitutes a legitimate baptism. There are also some precepts of the Church, that we keep our Sunday obligation, receive the sacrament of Confession once per year, and receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least once a year as well, on Easter. We must also keep abstinence and fasting particularly in accordance with the liturgical year. Finally, we must be charitable in providing for the church and our communities. If someone does these things they can be assured they are in a state of God's grace. If they don't they may still be saved, for God has bound us to his sacraments but he has not bound himself to them.

I'd like to ask you a question... What do you believe we must do to be saved? Specifically, do you believe that we are "once saved, always saved"? Do then those who lapse in their faith still receive salvation? Thanks for your time.
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  #165  
Old 11-14-2017, 4:39 AM
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Originally Posted by frankm View Post
This is why I don't believe you need intercession from Mary or the Saints:

Romans
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Every time I get around Catholics, it's usually Mary-this, and Mary-that. While we should honor and respect her, I think we need to leave her and the saints out of it when we want to talk to God. Same thing with Hail Mary's, how about Hail Jesus? What's the purpose of this difference?
Well I don't think you HAVE to pray to Mary, that's not exactly what the Church teaches... You definitely don't NEED it for your prayer to be heard, you don't pray to Mary because God can't hear your prayer if you don't. It's just that when people who are holy pray, or when more than one pray together, there is power in that. And it should be noted that prayer to Mary is not the same as prayer to Jesus. In the sense that Protestants only "pray" to God, Catholics also only "pray" to God. We can call that capital Prayer, as opposed to prayer, if that helps. When you pray to Mary or to any saint in Heaven it is just as you would ask a friend to pray for you. Only God can really be capital prayed to, and God the Father receives our prayers through the intercession of Jesus Christ. That is all Biblical.

And there are many, many Catholic prayers, chaplets and novenas devoted to Jesus... Catholics don't just hail Mary, they hail Christ as King. And personal, contemplative prayer to Jesus Christ in ones own words forms probably a major bulk of the core Catholic prayer life.

If the question becomes whether Mary/the saints can even hear our prayers, or if we're even allowed to pray to them... Revelations chapter 5 and 8 mention the prayers of the saints/by the saints in Heaven.

Rev 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints"

Rev 8:3-4 "Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand."

Multiple passages, too many to name, in the Bible mention prayers and praise to the angels and to the hosts of heaven. You can see this in the Psalms. In Maccabees you have the prayers for and to the dead in heaven, i.e. the saints.

This is such a longstanding tradition I don't understand why devotional prayer in communion with the saints is so controversial, honestly.
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  #166  
Old 11-14-2017, 6:25 AM
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Well I don't think you HAVE to pray to Mary, that's not exactly what the Church teaches... You definitely don't NEED it for your prayer to be heard, you don't pray to Mary because God can't hear your prayer if you don't. It's just that when people who are holy pray, or when more than one pray together, there is power in that. And it should be noted that prayer to Mary is not the same as prayer to Jesus. In the sense that Protestants only "pray" to God, Catholics also only "pray" to God. We can call that capital Prayer, as opposed to prayer, if that helps. When you pray to Mary or to any saint in Heaven it is just as you would ask a friend to pray for you. Only God can really be capital prayed to, and God the Father receives our prayers through the intercession of Jesus Christ. That is all Biblical.

And there are many, many Catholic prayers, chaplets and novenas devoted to Jesus... Catholics don't just hail Mary, they hail Christ as King. And personal, contemplative prayer to Jesus Christ in ones own words forms probably a major bulk of the core Catholic prayer life.

If the question becomes whether Mary/the saints can even hear our prayers, or if we're even allowed to pray to them... Revelations chapter 5 and 8 mention the prayers of the saints/by the saints in Heaven.

Rev 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints"

Rev 8:3-4 "Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand."

Multiple passages, too many to name, in the Bible mention prayers and praise to the angels and to the hosts of heaven. You can see this in the Psalms. In Maccabees you have the prayers for and to the dead in heaven, i.e. the saints.

This is such a longstanding tradition I don't understand why devotional prayer in communion with the saints is so controversial, honestly.
based on this

Quote:
1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Why would you do this?
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Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Any prayers to Mary fall on deaf ears?????

Any prayers offered from Heaven are not from them hearing us, but those who are aligning their will with Gods will. The same reason you should be praying and not taking your eyes off of God by praying to others who can't hear your prayers. The context that you are trying to make is not there and does not even come close to saying praying to the dead saints is like praying with the living saints. That is a stretch that is hard to make since God wants our eyes on him, not on the dead saints or dead Mary. We have the Living God, there should be no need to pray to dead people.
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  #167  
Old 11-14-2017, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by colossians323 View Post
based on this



Why would you do this?


Any prayers to Mary fall on deaf ears?????

Any prayers offered from Heaven are not from them hearing us, but those who are aligning their will with Gods will. The same reason you should be praying and not taking your eyes off of God by praying to others who can't hear your prayers. The context that you are trying to make is not there and does not even come close to saying praying to the dead saints is like praying with the living saints. That is a stretch that is hard to make since God wants our eyes on him, not on the dead saints or dead Mary. We have the Living God, there should be no need to pray to dead people.
Exactly!

Cbn620 you are twisting the word of God to make it fit the Catholic doctrine.

Rev 5:8 is quote "which are the prayers of the saints"
The prayers OF the saints are NOT prayers TO the saints. You either read that passage incorrectly or are purposefully trying to deceive people about what the Bible teaches.

Rev 8:3-4 "Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne."

The incense the Angel was given to offer to God were the prayers of God's people... TO GOD. The passage doesn't read that the people were praying to anyone other than God himself.

Praying to Angels, Mary, the "Saints" or anyone other than God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit is more than controversial it is clearly wrong and not Biblical that is why non-Catholics have a problem with it.
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  #168  
Old 11-14-2017, 2:40 PM
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Serpents, pine cones, the mitre, and "pagan" symbols? The worst you could grant is that Catholicism, as it spread west with the movement of Christians on instruction from Christ, in some way appropriated symbology of pagan origin. Some of these claims are dubious though. The bottom line should be not what they wear, but what do they teach?
Way to gloss over the multitude of Pagan ritualistic symbols used by the RCC in modern times as merely a foot note of it's origins in Paganism! What claims are dubious? How about backing up the legitimate use of the Dagon Mitre with a Bible verse?

How about a Biblical reference to the Catholic Crosier?

What part of the Bible even mentions the Pine Cone in reference in ANY way toward the worship of God?

I know that they are not Biblical and if you have such a vast knowledge of Catholic doctrine you should as well.

So the Million dollar question is what set of beliefs/teachings did the RCC get these symbols and rituals from and what signifigance do they have to what Scripture teaches us?

These are not outdated fashion accessories from an era lost in antiquity that just so happen to still be in use... Is that really the best explanation/defense you can come up with?

Please don't pretend that the RCC with it's vast historical archives is naive to the origin and true meaning of the multiple Pagan symbols and rituals it still uses to this very day!
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  #169  
Old 11-14-2017, 3:05 PM
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What about the Obelisk in St. Peters square taken from Egypt?

It is a ancient Phallic symbol from the Egyptian priesthood why would the Vatican want it on display?

Egypt and Pharoh persecuted God's people and brought forth God's wrath because of their wicked ways what is "Christian" about an Obelisk?
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  #170  
Old 11-14-2017, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cbn620 View Post
Bill, I actually went over it in a small amount of detail with the promise that I would explain more from my personal knowledge, in the testimony I left for why I'm a Catholic, or more specifically why I'm a catechumen -- that is, someone who is studying and preparing for baptism and confirmation. Did you read my post back there?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches in its sections on justification that we can be assured of Christ's salvation, by grace freely given, believe a few things, and do a few things; in other words it involves faith and works. Faith and works are kind of inseparable though and you can see this in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which was a dual effort by Catholics and Lutherans that kind of explains how "by faith alone" and "by faith and by works" are kind of saying the same thing in a different way. I'd recommend reading that document online.

Anyways, for the Catholic way specifically, first we believe in Christ obviously, the stuff all Christians believe, in keeping the commandments, etc. We believe baptism is required too, and there are rules for what constitutes a legitimate baptism. There are also some precepts of the Church, that we keep our Sunday obligation, receive the sacrament of Confession once per year, and receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least once a year as well, on Easter. We must also keep abstinence and fasting particularly in accordance with the liturgical year. Finally, we must be charitable in providing for the church and our communities. If someone does these things they can be assured they are in a state of God's grace. If they don't they may still be saved, for God has bound us to his sacraments but he has not bound himself to them.

I'd like to ask you a question... What do you believe we must do to be saved? Specifically, do you believe that we are "once saved, always saved"? Do then those who lapse in their faith still receive salvation? Thanks for your time.
cbn620 - Sorry, that question was directly asked of the citadel87 to see what he believes Catholic salvation is. I honestly haven't had the time to read all the posts, especially in each sub-thread between the posters! Too busy.

SO, given you have nicely taken the time to answer that question, I will make the time to read all your posts and respond!

Thanks and God bless.
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  #171  
Old 11-16-2017, 4:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ENTHUSIAST View Post
What about the Obelisk in St. Peters square taken from Egypt?

It is a ancient Phallic symbol from the Egyptian priesthood why would the Vatican want it on display?

Egypt and Pharoh persecuted God's people and brought forth God's wrath because of their wicked ways what is "Christian" about an Obelisk?
Have you looked at a map of the early Christian world? It spread all the way around the Mediterranean and North Africa... Egypt was Christian for a time. Carthage (modern day Tunisia) rivaled Rome at one point. St Augustine was from North Africa. I can't defend everything the Vatican has done though because post-Vatican II there has been a focus on ecumenism and religious "tolerance" that I am not sure I completely agree with. There are some parts of the traditionalist Catholic movement I sympathize in this regard. But I don't think collecting artifacts from parts of the world that were once Christian and displaying them basically as trophies is a cause for concern when it comes to my faith.

First of all I'm not exactly glossing over it. I'm not going to go on a point by point on each of those symbols especially in the previous post where there was already too much ground to cover. And I think it's worthless to go into every doodle, symbol, piece of fashion that exists in the RCC today just as it is to go over all of the stuff we keep in western civilization today that came from a pagan origin.

The mitre is a perfect example of one that is dubious... Its coincidental resemblance to a fish and the connection that it must be associated with a fish god and that thus Catholics are secreting worshiping that fish god instead of the triune God of the Bible, is the epitome of dubious. I cannot find any credible information linking the two.

The mitre is an ancient form of headwear that took on a place in western Christianity--and monarchy--around the 1100s AD. There really is no symbological truth to why a mitre is shaped like a mitre. Why is a top hat shaped like a top hat? Not to mention many Protestants carry on the tradition of the mitre... Do Episcopalians and Lutherans worship this fish/dragon god? Cause they have been known to wear the mitre too. Nevermind all of the technically pagan stuff that continues to be prolific in our western world in religion and in secular society... Wedding rings are one that come to mind.

There is no known biblical basis for some/many of these symbols, especially their use but we're getting down into the weeds here, into the Dan Brown territory. Symbology is mostly BS. Like people who look at our dollar bill and try to prove some kind of secret conspiracy on there that the founders were actually controlled by luciferians and the illuminati. I have and will admit there is no biblical basis for some of these symbols, but there is also no biblical basis for the ichthyus or even for the cross in the sense of using it as a symbol to identify Christians. That wouldn't come until around 400 AD. Speaking of 400 AD that was also when the Bible was actually finished as far as the canon.

For the Catholic there is the Bible and there is also Christian tradition. For the Catholic, and for the Orthodox, both are required for coming to the full knowledge and truth of the faith. Sola scriptura is not written in the Bible, and to even analyze the text of the Bible we have to use something that comes from outside of it.

Also I never claimed any great knowledge or expertise... I've couched what I'm saying in the fact that I'm a catechumen still and this is an ongoing process for me. I've come at this discussion with the mentality of Christian humbleness and charity towards others beliefs. I'm not claiming to know everything nor am I telling anyone what to believe, just what I sincerely believe.
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  #172  
Old 11-16-2017, 4:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ENTHUSIAST View Post
Exactly!

Cbn620 you are twisting the word of God to make it fit the Catholic doctrine.

Rev 5:8 is quote "which are the prayers of the saints"
The prayers OF the saints are NOT prayers TO the saints. You either read that passage incorrectly or are purposefully trying to deceive people about what the Bible teaches.

Rev 8:3-4 "Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne."

The incense the Angel was given to offer to God were the prayers of God's people... TO GOD. The passage doesn't read that the people were praying to anyone other than God himself.

Praying to Angels, Mary, the "Saints" or anyone other than God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit is more than controversial it is clearly wrong and not Biblical that is why non-Catholics have a problem with it.
I understand you have a problem with it. I understand and respect that you guys think it is wrong. I just disagree.

What about the "cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews?

I will ask you this and then I will leave the last word to you and collosians on the issue of prayers to saints, and maybe we can move onto something else like apostolic succession, or sola scriptura, or to justification/salvation, or some other area, as to not beat a dead horse where we clearly disagree.

Do you think it is sinful that someone says while they are at the cemetery near the grave of a dead relative, something like, "Dad if you're up there and you can hear me, I just hope you know how much I loved you... put in a word for me with the Big Guy up stairs." Would it be sinful for someone to ask Jesus Christ in prayer, if he could please let X loved one know they were loved, and wish that they are looking down on them with loving kindness, and that those in heaven are praying for those of us remaining here on earth? That is what the Catholic "prayer" to saints essentially is. We do address the saint, or Mary, or whomever directly. But it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that any prayer is heard, and it is only by the intercession of Jesus Christ that any prayer is actually delivered, so it is kind of implied in any Catholic prayer...
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Old 11-16-2017, 7:26 AM
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Sola scriptura is not written in the Bible, and to even analyze the text of the Bible we have to use something that comes from outside of it.
Quote:
hermeneutics
[hur-muh-noo-tiks, -nyoo-]

noun, (used with a singular verb)
1.
the science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures.
2.
the branch of theology that deals with the principles of Biblical exegesis.
I won't bore you with the details of hermeneutics, but it is a principal that is timeless.

If Gods word is not His authority than what is? men are fallible and cannot be trusted, as we see time and time again in the bible, and through out history.

Catholic Priests who sexually abuse in the name of God
Protestant Charlatans who use the name of God to earn their riches (televangelists)
False teachers who tell you their god is the 'real' god
etc etc

Thus we have sola scriptura which is the ultimate authority and hermeneutics is the principal that is used in difficult areas of text.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:42 AM
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Christian= "follower of Christ". Therefore Catholics consider themselves to be Christians. Protestants are of mixed opinion on this point.

Heath·en
ˈhēT͟Hən
noun- derogatory
1.
a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially one who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim) as regarded by those who do.

synonyms: pagan, infidel, idolater, heretic, unbeliever, disbeliever, nonbeliever, atheist, agnostic, skeptic; archaicpaynim
Ex: "the evangelist preached to the heathens"

Catholics and Protestants typically agree that a Heathen is, indeed, a Heathen.

We have had our problems throughout history LOL



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