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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials | |||
$0 I don't want them at any price | 398 | 15.56% | |
$100 | 316 | 12.35% | |
$500 | 748 | 29.24% | |
$1000 | 530 | 20.72% | |
$1500 | 103 | 4.03% | |
$2000 | 211 | 8.25% | |
$5000 | 133 | 5.20% | |
$10000 | 50 | 1.95% | |
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage | 69 | 2.70% | |
Voters: 2558. You may not vote on this poll |
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#41
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Did not the jerk that crashed the Ferrari Enzo in Malibu have a phony public transportation company that allowed it to have transit police under California law, get caught in a world of hurt. Is this what you are talking about?
http://www.wreckedexotics.com/special/enzo/
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"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez Last edited by Californio; 11-08-2009 at 2:27 PM.. |
#42
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#43
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But his was phony, and not even his. He was just one of the members. What's being proposed here is apparently a qualified LEO program from another, more friendly state.
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#44
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This is the wrong way to go. Want a badge? Join the force.
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#46
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I put 5k as long as I can legally carry anywhere I go and that would be a one time shot. I would not pay 5k every 5 years however. I think thats absurd. 5k 1 time for me and re-qualify every year to prove that I am worthy to handle a firearm.
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#47
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So Kansas is your state of choice? You don't think they have BS laws over there?
Last edited by a1c; 11-08-2009 at 2:55 PM.. |
#48
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Kansas was hypothetical, why are you *****ing at me again? Stick to the topic!
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#50
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I woudl pay about 500$ to get a CCW and with training power to arrest bad guys. The problem is not everyone can be a LEO and then yourun into the problem of power trips for non LEO trained people
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#52
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What I seem to understand is that someone could set up a LEA somewhere in the US - basically, buys a town, for instance - and issue badges as some sort law enforcement deputy positions to whomever is ready to pay for it, even if they live out-of-state (in this case, CA). Am I getting this right? |
#53
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The difference is in knowing when you can place someone under arrest. As for the poll... I see no moral or ethical issue here. If there was a way I could pay some money to get credentials that would allow me to CCW here and across the nation, you better believe I'll do it. However... once this comes to light, if people start doing whatever it is, sooner or later they'll start to be arrested. Why not? You'll complain that you're acting legally. Your complaints will come from inside of a jail cell, or after you've paid thousands or tens of thousands to bond out. You will then have the opportunity to retain an attorney and fight an opponent who has unlimited funding and manpower. And if, somehow, you prevail... you won't even get an apology. And if you're ever arrested again, you can do it all over.
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San Diego FFLs | San Diego ranges I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. --Thomas Jefferson ** I had my San Diego County CCW... you can, too! |
#55
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Besides... isn't "buying" CCW permits with "campaign contributions" something we've been railing against?
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-- Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun Not a lawyer, just a former LEO proud to have served. Quote:
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#56
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"America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall." Quote:
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#58
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Not to speak on behalf of the whole community here, but what we have been rallying against is people's inability to enjoy their right to Keep and Bear Arms, wrongfully administered by the screwed up laws in California were only the privileged few can carry if only they pay off the right Sheriff. Enjoying lawfully issued LEO / LEA creds as discussed in this thread as a mechanism for all those interested in assisting with the salary of those involved or the administration of such an agency would be very different than jumping on the bandwagon of a political campaign with the expectation of a favor in turn. Similar perhaps in intent, but very different in their scope. |
#59
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LEA's have cops that have not gone through the academy all the time... remember there is a broad interpenetration of what constitutes a LEO for the purpose of HR218.
Which is specifically why HR218 is written the way it is.... there are a number of places where you are a cop if they say you are a cop... there are a number of places where you are considered a LEO even if you are just the equivalent of a process server. Let me state this again. There are states in the U.S. which have ZERO requirements for training, and ZERO requirements for applicants. There are some instances where individuals can be legally considered LEO's even if they are convicted felons... which is WHY HR218 contains wording which prohibits felons and prohibited persons from carrying weapons even if they have law enforcement credentials. Buying CCW's as a reward for campaign contributions is a no-no.... however if a municipality wanted to charge a 1k application fee to apply for a job as an auxiliary reserve constable which went directly into the city's coffers and was not a 'private' donation there would be no problem with it. We need to remember that we in CA have different standards of what constitutes a LEO... we have post certification and state wide standards of acceptance, as well as other criteria... which simply do not apply uniformly across the U.S. There are still places where you get to be a deputy simply by applying for the job... which makes you a LEO... which allows you to carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the USA. The $$$$ incentive for the local municipality simply makes it a viable proposition for a cash strapped city council. there is one state in particular which has a specific exemption in the penal code which allows for municipalities to appoint a special class of Law enforcement officers who are considered independent contractors and for whom the state/municipality assumes no liability for their actions... they also have limited jurisdiction and are paid only nominal sums.... BUT they legally qualify as LEO's... and there IS precedent to back it up with regard to HR218. Lets assume for a minute that everything I'm suggesting is on the up and up... and this is simply a case of you pay your 'application fee' you pass a background check and you get issued credentials... How much is it worth to you? |
#61
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If 10,000 people spend 1,000 per application to get credentials, that's 10 million dollars... which for a small town in the rust belt is close to 5 times their annual budget...
that's 10 million very persuasive reasons to give it a try. |
#62
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cant issue. Must go through a post academy and have working hours to have this. Now a Sheriff or chief can issue a ccw, but it does not make you a leo!
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Please spay or neuter your liberals. |
#63
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however for the purpouses of HR218 ANY municipality can issue you your credentials according to their own criteria (IF ANY). remember CA has different standards than the national LEOSA bill. |
#64
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Im surprised at the number of people who lack reading comprehension skills.
-bb
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NRA Life Endowment Member - CRPA Member "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Ben Franklin, 1759 Brand NEW Apple MacBooks and Mini for sale |
#65
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Need more info... |
#66
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To be able to help the world we live in and carry a gun... LEGALLY?
Well that would be worth lots to me personally as I think we all need to do more to help and stand together united as one. So more than a dollar and less then a million? |
#67
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I thought about it and I still like it. Can the state violate the federal law on this one ? If they figure out the obvious intent can they just say they don't recognize our badges as legit ? Couldn't we buy a town in CA? They are all bankrupt too ! I figure the four different ccw permits I need to travel in and around CA cost at least 1000 to get. Not to mention renewals.
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#69
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Combating crime is every citizen's responsibility. However, at some point, just like all of us don't make shoes or provide IT services, some citizens were designated to combat crime. Keep in mind that they're still ordinary citizens who happen to have the job of fighting crime.
At some point, we gave these citizens extra powers, immunities, exceptions to the laws imposed upon the citizens not in the profession of fighting crime, etc. Which effectively made these citizens whose job is to combat crime more equal than the rest. Then we've come up with the myth of one having to be a superhuman and have mythical training standards in order to be allowed to be the citizen whose job it is to fight crime. However, this myth is BS fed to the citizenry by those interested in having the monopoly for the use of force and the ones who have acquired the Stockholm syndrome. As such, I'm not surprised to see a lot of outrage here over "non-qualified" "ordinary" people being granted LEO status by some "clearly misguided" city. I also have no problem with being granted such status, as it simply recognizes something that should need no recognition, but thanks to the sorry state of civil rights in this country does need it.
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#70
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Just like it's up to the Board to demand training and certain credentials before issuing you the license to practice medicine. Another example: when you're designated a soldier, someone whose job is to defend this country and its Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, you don't become one by the virtue of your training and graduation from Basic. You become one because you were selected, or you volunteered, to perform this specific duty of a citizen. Training is provided to make you more effective at that.
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 Last edited by nick; 11-08-2009 at 7:41 PM.. |
#71
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That being said, the response to this by governments from local to federal would likely be unpleasant and most likely unconstitutional. Not that the latter ever stopped any government body, and I doubt a bunch of corrupt and dishonest judges would be of much help.
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#72
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Details, details...
Text of LEOSA when it was HR 218... http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...218enr.txt.pdf ‘‘(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photo- graphic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer." The grey area comes in the definition of the word "employed." How grey? Charcoal. If you catch a case while trying to use your fantasy LEO credentials to justify LEOSA for yourself, then the case will come down to the judge/jury having to decide whether you are actually "employed" as a LEO. You may conjure up a scenario in which you may consider yourself employed when you do not do something as your main source of income, and you do not do it for, say, at least 30 hrs/week, but will the judge/jury actually buy this alternative definition of "employed"? Hey, take your chances. That being said... CA AG says that LEOSA applies to active, sworn reserve officers... http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf. Many departments specifically prohibit reservists from being being paid (+ no benefits, + no POA, + no retirement)... which would reasonably make them non-employees of the dept. and, following a strict reading of LEOSA, not grant CCW. So, a bit of a contradiction there. Then again, the AG doesn't make the law... this is just his interpretation of it. So, there you go. -gcrtkd
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I don't always carry a gun, but when I do, I prefer Glock. |
#73
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Can you name one or two please? With links or citation to the relevant codes of said state?
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-- Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun Not a lawyer, just a former LEO proud to have served. Quote:
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#74
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It wasn't legit (in the sense that they weren't actually doing what they claimed to be in business to do), but it apparently was legal under CA law. --Neill
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#76
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Best of luck if y'all try to go through with this. That being said, I don't think I'd personally touch this with a ten foot pole.
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#77
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Also the civil liability toward any department that issued this would be off the chart. Wait until one of the applicants does something stupid. Just a simple 417pc would put them a great civil liability
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Please spay or neuter your liberals. Last edited by Solidmch; 11-08-2009 at 9:52 PM.. |
#78
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So they make their cash. One week, month or year later they rescind your LEO status. Since you are not lawfully "retired" and you are no longer an LEO you are not entitled to nationwide carry. And you are still out the cash with no legal recourse. Scammers usually end up getting scammed.
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Poke'm with a stick! |
#79
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officer’ means an employee of a governmental agency who— ‘‘(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest; ‘‘(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm; ‘‘(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency; ‘‘(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;H. R. 218—2 ‘‘(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and ‘‘(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm." You are conveniently interpreting "if any" as applying to standards applying to LEO status in general when it clearly refers to regular firearm qualification. Some agencies qualify with their firearms every month, some every other month, some twice a year. Some require their retirees to qualify annually, others not at all. Last edited by Bruce; 11-08-2009 at 11:33 PM.. |
#80
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Being a LEO is a job, and usually a lifestyle for most. I do not want their job or their lifestyle. I'd rather see citizens get the same rights as LEO's as they're one and the same.
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OCSD Approved CCW Instructor NRA Certified Instructor CA DOJ Certified Instructor Glock Certified Armorer |
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