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  #1  
Old 05-19-2018, 12:44 PM
sierra11b sierra11b is offline
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Default LEO's: A question on school active shooters: What should we be teaching our children?

Dear esteemed LEOs here;

I come to you seeking your expertise on teaching my boy the best way he can possibly protect himself in the critical minutes during an active shooter.

He's 5yo and a very smart young man already on the path my Father and Grandfather taught me. He just graduated Pre-K, and I want to instill some simple SOPs (so-to-speak) into his still jello-like-brain before going to the "big house"

Crazy how it came to this, right? I applaud all of you for acting on this potential call every day. I can remember doing flinch-empty cylinder drills with my late Granddad <10yo with his 66-no dash, but never got a course in active shooter drills by him or my Father, for obvious reasons.

First, let me say that I am prior Ranger 3/75th and 82d Senior Parachutist from '98-'03 with 2/82d brigade serving under 325th and LRS-D, even taught some foreign govt on RTC 350-1-2, but am old enough now that I'd be applying for retirement. Today, I'm an overstuffed sausage well into a different career path. That being said, this isn't a loaded question, but me wanting to know the current standard, for all here wanting to know the same.

Back when I worked for Hilton as a corporate exec. chef (now federal health inspector for NorCal), we got a very worthwhile course from a Sacramento County Sheriff and SWAT TL, but it wasn't anything I didn't already know as it was geared toward the other 99% in the room, which ultimately ended in going into near ambush tactics on the worse-case scenario.

Unfortunately, his mother and myself actively work to keep our heads above water, so home schooling isn't an option at this time.

My sincere hope with this thread is keeping it clean and non-political.... Just good solid advise in translating your SOPs into something a child can understand, but more importantly, how those here teach your kids.

Last edited by sierra11b; 05-19-2018 at 12:48 PM..
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Old 05-19-2018, 1:21 PM
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With your background I think your probably more able to convey to a child of that age group what to do to get out of harms way. You know more than anyone here what your child is capable of. With young children there probably isn't much more than hide or get out and as far away as they can. The problem will be the teacher who if not in full blown panic mode will most certainly want to control the class' movement's.

We all pray that we won't hear about another one of these, but sadly the media and politician's aren't addressing the real cause. I'm willing to bet a sizable chunk of my post retirement income that there is one common denominator in nearly everyone of these. One of the oldest motivator's around revenge.
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Old 05-19-2018, 2:29 PM
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It is sad that we now have to think like this and our children must be trained, but this is the world we now live in.

Since your son is so small, he cannot cognitavily understand some concepts yet. Only you know your son and have to teach him at his level. I used my training and this video to train my kids on what to do. I am not saying that a 5 year old should watch this video, but you can draw some info and make it age appropriate for your son. The video was prepared by LASD and is a great video for those that don't have any Law Enforcement experience or training. great video for the wife as well.

https://youtu.be/DFQ-oxhdFjE
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Old 05-19-2018, 2:37 PM
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Christian Values. There's a reason the left is working so hard to obliterate them.
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Old 05-19-2018, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
With your background I think your probably more able to convey to a child of that age group what to do to get out of harms way.
This is true.

But it's also been well over a decade (going on two). Plus, I've never dealt with, trained, or trained with children. It's entirely different.

I'm not asking for a full scale doctrine or manual... Just a handful of billeted points to go over with my son, which may also be beneficial to all those here with children.
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Old 05-19-2018, 4:31 PM
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It is sad that we now have to think like this and our children must be trained, but this is the world we now live in.

Since your son is so small, he cannot cognitavily understand some concepts yet. Only you know your son and have to teach him at his level. I used my training and this video to train my kids on what to do. I am not saying that a 5 year old should watch this video, but you can draw some info and make it age appropriate for your son. The video was prepared by LASD and is a great video for those that don't have any Law Enforcement experience or training. great video for the wife as well.

https://youtu.be/DFQ-oxhdFjE
Good point regarding cognition. Itís hard to swallow sometimes but true. Part of you has to rely on faculty training and hoping you never get that call, at least until of learning and cognitive response.
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Old 05-19-2018, 4:38 PM
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Honestly, the teachers or administrators are going to go into lockdown/emergency mode and follow whatever they have been drilling and will be working hard to control the movements as another member correctly mentioned earlier.

There is not going to be a single answer or solution to this problem.

The doctrine that seems to be accepted with respect to mass shootings is the Texas model: RUN, HIDE, FIGHT.

Personally, I support having safe rooms. See:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...html%3Famp%3Dy

But not sure how effective these would be if the shooter also had explosives. I think we need:

1. Doctrine and education.
2. Training and drills.
3. Having officers on campus (engaged and involved in all aspects of drills/education/training).
4. Lockdown and safe rooms.

Most importantly, I can not stress enough the importance of situational awareness and to say something if you see or suspect something or someone that’s just not right. Thousands of years of evolution has allowed us to survive this long. Trust your instincts. If you think something is just not right, it probably isn’t.

RLTW!!
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Old 05-19-2018, 4:43 PM
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Or we can just recognize they are in more danger from any number of other things and stop acting irrationally about this particular very unlikely occurrence.
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Old 05-19-2018, 5:24 PM
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Christian Values. There's a reason the left is working so hard to obliterate them.
And I would add teaching there are some bad people and bad choices in life. It is never to early to convey that. My kid learned very early that the vagrant sitting on the freeway off ramp likely: Did not listen to his parents, did not try hard at school, took drugs and did not obey the law, etc. Are there exceptions? Of course, but by the time he's in H.S. he's well aware of where he could be if he chooses to go down the wrong path, and well on his way to achieving positive goals.

I had my kid start martial arts at a young age and he achieved his 1st degree black belt prior to H.S. He carries himself with the quiet confidence of knowing that he does not have to lay a hand on you to win a disagreement, but if you lay a hand on him you will pay dearly.

The bottom line is the odds of him being involved in a active shooter event is infinitesimal compared to other failures in life. Good luck in your parenting, it goes by way too fast.

Last edited by chsk9; 05-20-2018 at 8:33 AM..
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Old 05-19-2018, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BarrettM99 View Post
Honestly, the teachers or administrators are going to go into lockdown/emergency mode and follow whatever they have been drilling and will be working hard to control the movements as another member correctly mentioned earlier.

There is not going to be a single answer or solution to this problem.

The doctrine that seems to be accepted with respect to mass shootings is the Texas model: RUN, HIDE, FIGHT.

Personally, I support having safe rooms. See:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...html%3Famp%3Dy

But not sure how effective these would be if the shooter also had explosives. I think we need:

1. Doctrine and education.
2. Training and drills.
3. Having officers on campus (engaged and involved in all aspects of drills/education/training).
4. Lockdown and safe rooms.

Most importantly, I can not stress enough the importance of situational awareness and to say something if you see or suspect something or someone that’s just not right. Thousands of years of evolution has allowed us to survive this long. Trust your instincts. If you think something is just not right, it probably isn’t.

RLTW!!
Thanks, Barrett.

I suppose all I can do at this junction is what I’m already doing at hope it sticks with such a young mind.

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Or we can just recognize they are in more danger from any number of other things and stop acting irrationally about this particular very unlikely occurrence.
Do you have kids?

Although a gunman is an unlikely occurrence, all of the sudden it might present itself, just like the powerball winner in a trailer park. Not a day that goes by where I’m not on the fringe if/when my son took too big a bite and choked. I’ve instructed him numerous times on taking smaller bites.

Other parents know this and I have a young 28yo step-brother who took too big a bite and cannot walk, talk, and has no idea who I am anymore.

Last edited by sierra11b; 05-19-2018 at 7:19 PM..
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Old 05-19-2018, 6:57 PM
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Maybe one of the first things you can do is to address the school superintendent, principal, teachers, etc. first and see what is actually in place. Then evaluate how effective it is or could be and maybe go from there.

SSD does active shooter training with many of the schools and churches that are willing to participate.
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Old 05-19-2018, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by esy View Post
Maybe one of the first things you can do is to address the school superintendent, principal, teachers, etc. first and see what is actually in place. Then evaluate how effective it is or could be and maybe go from there.

SSD does active shooter training with many of the schools and churches that are willing to participate.
That’s good advice, too.

Last edited by sierra11b; 05-19-2018 at 7:20 PM..
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Old 05-19-2018, 7:24 PM
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Do you have kids?
I don't see how that's relevant, but yes I do.
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Old 05-19-2018, 7:43 PM
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I find it interesting but not surprising that my comment was ignored. While it's commendable that you're concerned about your son's wellbeing, I think you're getting ahead of yourself.

A 5 year old is not mentally mature enough to absorb much in the way of 'fight or flight' skills. You can certainly try, of course. I do believe you both would be better served in focusing on life skills first. You're primary job as a father, after protection, is building that boy into a man.

Without a quality value set he's gonna be worthless, especially in critical situations. I say Christian Values because, well, there aren't any better known to exist. He will need that foundation as he attempts to navigate our increasingly secular/ anti-Christian world.

I think a lot of these school shootings happen because these kids were abused & ignored/ shunned by their community. Christianity does not condone this. Sadly, it's all too common in our secular culture & we are reaping what we have sewn.

But whatever.
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Old 05-19-2018, 8:30 PM
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I ignored your comments because 1) it was political, and 2) Christian values molested my brother at a certain capital Christian center back when a certain pastor was still alive. As said, that pastor is dead now but I knew him all too well.

I normally don’t like to do this sort of thing, especially when the man is dead and cannot defend himself, but you pushed my hand. I’m a devout libertarian with fiscal conservative values, but my christian values drove off in a brand new fully loaded Mercedes back in the early 90s.

I should have known better asking this forum I’ve been apart of for years. Looks like going back to lurking the sales forums indefinitely. Thanks a million, Mr. Swanson

Last edited by sierra11b; 05-19-2018 at 9:04 PM..
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:30 PM
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I ignored your comments because 1) it was political, and 2) Christian values molested my brother at a certain capital Christian center back when a certain pastor was still alive. As said, that pastor is dead now but I knew him all too well.

I normally donít like to do this sort of thing, especially when the man is dead and cannot defend himself, but you pushed my hand. Iím a devout libertarian with fiscal conservative values, but my christian values drove off in a brand new fully loaded Mercedes back in the early 90s.

I should have known better asking this forum Iíve been apart of for years. Looks like going back to lurking the sales forums indefinitely. Thanks a million, Mr. Swanson
A horrible action by a monster, along with the lack of trust would make the best of us question everything about organized religion. You came asking for advise, and that has been offered, in differing perspectives. Christianity is not responsible for the actions of a evil man. Sorry you have had to deal with that.
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:34 PM
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A horrible action by a monster, along with the lack of trust would make the best of us question everything about organized religion. You came asking for advise, and that has been offered, in differing perspectives. Christianity is not responsible for the actions of a evil man. Sorry you have had to deal with that.
Concur 100%. Did not mean to offend or dredge up such horrible memories. You have my apology for that.
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:38 PM
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A horrible action by a monster, along with the lack of trust would make the best of us question everything about organized religion. You came asking for advise, and that has been offered, in differing perspectives. Christianity is not responsible for the actions of a evil man. Sorry you have had to deal with that.
No I get that.

It wasnít my intention to demean Christians here with my post. For that I apologize.

Not sure if Mr. bigstick is simply personifying his avatar or simply thinks that his Christian values makes him a better father, but I suspect the later.

Just came into this thread asking for a few pointers is all. Apparently that was too much to ask of some.
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:41 PM
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Concur 100%. Did not mean to offend or dredge up such horrible memories. You have my apology for that.
Apology accepted.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:06 PM
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Hey Sierra,
I found a path that works for me & for most of the folks in my community. I've also seen how our society has degraded as we get further from those values. These school shootings are a symptom of a much greater evil.

As the father of three boys, I understand your motivation. Our most precious & valuable resource is our children. My aim was merely to pass on what I believe to be of value to you.

Good intentions only.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:35 PM
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I'm not a cop. I thank everyone one of you for dealing with the scum of the Earth every day for us people of the community.

That was a great video by LA Sheriff's department. I think the lesson you should focus on for your Boy is that sometimes you will meet irrational people. They can't be reasoned with or talked to. It may even require running, hiding or fighting back to survive. He'll have a hard time understanding because kids have no malice. Once you help him through that, in my opinion play the game of watching people and identifying the exits. Any public place has the potential for bad to happen and a quick, safe exit until the Calvary arrives is the priority.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:03 AM
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Or we can just recognize they are in more danger from any number of other things and stop acting irrationally about this particular very unlikely occurrence.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:06 AM
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I think the lesson you should focus on for your Boy is that sometimes you will meet irrational people. They can't be reasoned with or talked to.
This^ x 1000!!!

A LOT of (too many) average ADULTS, especially those who like to second guess and Monday morning quarterback, need to understand and/or be reminded of that as well!!!
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:32 AM
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School shootings don't happen in Southern California because our schools are already "hardened" due to gangbanger-related security concerns. Most schools only have 1-2 entrances that are monitored during entry and and exit times with staff who are already looking for people who don't belong or weapons.

The places where these shooting occur are open campuses with no fences or gates surrounding them.

Not trying to be a dick, but if I were you I would worry about issues that are a lot more pressing in California schools, namely drug use.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:11 PM
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Not trying to be a dick, but if I were you I would worry about issues that are a lot more pressing in California schools, namely drug use.
That and the other very real dangers that kids face, along with constantly making sure they stay away from bad associates.
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Old 05-20-2018, 2:19 PM
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That and the other very real dangers that kids face, along with constantly making sure they stay away from bad associates.
Let's see:

First you have liberal teachers that refuse to acknowledge the moral pitfalls of dangerous behaviors such as promiscuity, drug use and gang involvement. (Hey kids I listen to rap music and use instagram too, I'm cool like you)

Also you have the fact that it is nearly impossible to discipline or suspend students for any reason, especially if they are minorities.

Then you have the fact that all of the early intervention and proactive policing programs designed to keep kids out of gang and off drugs, implemented in the 80's and 90's, are all basically being discontinued. (Because studies have shown that having Police and Probation Officers in schools lead to disproportionate minority contact feeding the school to prison pipeline)

Yea, school shootings are the last thing I am actually worried about in CA schools.
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Old 05-20-2018, 6:01 PM
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School shootings don't happen in Southern California because our schools are already "hardened" due to gangbanger-related security concerns. Most schools only have 1-2 entrances that are monitored during entry and and exit times with staff who are already looking for people who don't belong or weapons.
1. You must not be in LE because if you were, you would know to Never say Never.

2. Taft might or might not be considered So Cal but last time I checked, Palmdale, San Bernardino, Lancaster, UCLA, and Santa Monica, Are - and those are just the recent incidents (since 2012/Sandy Hook)...
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Old 05-20-2018, 9:28 PM
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1. You must not be in LE because if you were, you would know to Never say Never.

2. Taft might or might not be considered So Cal but last time I checked, Palmdale, San Bernardino, Lancaster, UCLA, and Santa Monica, Are - and those are just the recent incidents (since 2012/Sandy Hook)...
Of course there will always be a chance that it will happen, however I am trying to impart upon the OP that compared to schools in other states, most CA public schools are already hardened against outside threats or violent attacks due simply to our history and the nature of the types of "bad" kids we have here. I would like to think that our schools are under a constant state of condition yellow or orange, whereas in other places they stay green year round.

The incidents you describe are hardly mass-casualty events on the scale of Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Stoneman Douglas.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:27 PM
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Let's see:

First you have liberal teachers that refuse to acknowledge the moral pitfalls of dangerous behaviors such as promiscuity, drug use and gang involvement. (Hey kids I listen to rap music and use instagram too, I'm cool like you)

Also you have the fact that it is nearly impossible to discipline or suspend students for any reason, especially if they are minorities.

Then you have the fact that all of the early intervention and proactive policing programs designed to keep kids out of gang and off drugs, implemented in the 80's and 90's, are all basically being discontinued. (Because studies have shown that having Police and Probation Officers in schools lead to disproportionate minority contact feeding the school to prison pipeline)

Yea, school shootings are the last thing I am actually worried about in CA schools.

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Old 05-21-2018, 10:30 AM
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Teach skills. How to stop bleeding. If he hears gunfire and is out side, what/where is cover, run in the opposite direction, run far-and keep running all the way home. If he is inside - what is cover/stops bullets, stay away from windows, how to wedge/block the door shut.

Make sure your local agency is doing active shooter training and his school has a protocol for it. What are their response times? Most active killer events are over in 8 minutes average.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:34 AM
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Let's see:

First you have liberal teachers that refuse to acknowledge the moral pitfalls of dangerous behaviors such as promiscuity, drug use and gang involvement. (Hey kids I listen to rap music and use instagram too, I'm cool like you)

Also you have the fact that it is nearly impossible to discipline or suspend students for any reason, especially if they are minorities.

Then you have the fact that all of the early intervention and proactive policing programs designed to keep kids out of gang and off drugs, implemented in the 80's and 90's, are all basically being discontinued. (Because studies have shown that having Police and Probation Officers in schools lead to disproportionate minority contact feeding the school to prison pipeline)

Yea, school shootings are the last thing I am actually worried about in CA schools.
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:10 AM
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The police academy teaches officers how to respond to active shooters, but it doesn't currently teach about survival/escape/overcome techniques for small children. Maybe someday it will.

Given your credentials listed in the OP, I would recommend to formulate some ideas on how to hide, flee, or confront a potential attacker. Unless a LEO on this board has some specialized training or experience, it's unlikely to be better than what you can come up with, especially considering that you know your son's capabilities better than we do.

Making sure he's athletic, knows the basics of self defense, and is taught to use his own head (starting to develop critical thinking skills even at the age of 5) rather than blindly follow what others tell him to do, would be a good start.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:35 PM
Samuelx Samuelx is offline
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Of course there will always be a chance that it will happen, however I am trying to impart upon the OP that compared to schools in other states, most CA public schools are already hardened against outside threats or violent attacks due simply to our history and the nature of the types of "bad" kids we have here. I would like to think that our schools are under a constant state of condition yellow or orange, whereas in other places they stay green year round.

The incidents you describe are hardly mass-casualty events on the scale of Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Stoneman Douglas.
I agree that there are a LOT of other things to worry or be concerned about But my point is along the lines of "better to have and not need" (a plan, preparation, training, etc) than the other way around.

As far as casualty vs mass casualty - IMO, how many others killed/injured really doesn't matter to those who lost someone or had someone suffer a life-changing event (injury).

In training, I always say that the 99.999999% chance that something won't happen doesn't mean jack **** to the .000001% that it's happening to.

Last edited by Samuelx; 05-21-2018 at 12:37 PM..
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Old 05-21-2018, 3:24 PM
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Teach skills. How to stop bleeding.
This. First aid, how to swim well, stuff like that.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:48 PM
CinnamonBear723 CinnamonBear723 is offline
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Currently I teach the RUN, HIDE, FIGHT method. Usually I'm teaching classes of middle schoolers and up though. Conveying this to a 5 year old is difficult. He is your son and only you can be the judge of that at his age.

I'm a huge believer in this method though.
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Old 05-25-2018, 3:40 PM
Frank1911 Frank1911 is offline
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Look into the A.L.I.C.E. Program. DHS modeled their "Run, Hide, Fight" program after this violent intruder program.

PM me if you need help finding it. By far this is the best training available.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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Old 05-25-2018, 6:42 PM
terry4130 terry4130 is offline
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I agree that there are a LOT of other things to worry or be concerned about But my point is along the lines of "better to have and not need" (a plan, preparation, training, etc) than the other way around.



As far as casualty vs mass casualty - IMO, how many others killed/injured really doesn't matter to those who lost someone or had someone suffer a life-changing event (injury).



In training, I always say that the 99.999999% chance that something won't happen doesn't mean jack **** to the .000001% that it's happening to.


Iíll add. When youíre in the moment, you donít know if itís one or many casualties. Iíd treat any event as a worst case scenario.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:10 AM
Samuelx Samuelx is offline
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Iíll add. When youíre in the moment, you donít know if itís one or many casualties. Iíd treat any event as a worst case scenario.
Agree - we can hope for the best but we'd better be planning/prepping for the worst...
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Old 05-31-2018, 8:24 PM
jeremiah12 jeremiah12 is offline
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As a teacher in a school that has gone through a multi-agency active shooter drill and who keeps a close watch on the actions of the administration (in an administrative training program even though I will never become one because the politics are too much) schools are not as hardened as the public would like to believe.

The weak point is students will open gates for anyone who asks. Students jump fences regularly. Gang bangers stash guns and weapons on campus at night and on weekends and then have access to them during school hours. There is political pressure on administrators to conceal any student who has been caught with a gun. So if no one else noticed, the gun just disappears and no police report is made. At my school, the gun gets placed into a trash bag and then tossed into the dumpster late in the evening. It is then covered up by more trash. Administration does not want it to go onto the Safe Schools report and deal with all the parent phone calls. ADA money will be lost as parents keep their kids home for a few days because they believe the school is not safe.

In my district the active shooter protocol has changed. If the shooter is close, it is lockdown in place, barricade the door with heavy furniture if possible and fight if necessary. If the shooter is far enough away that escape is possible, then students and teachers are to leave campus ASAP. The wounded are to be left behind.

My school has a large campus and the back abuts to an elementary school.

I will say it will depend on the mindset of the teacher. I know some teachers that will just freeze. I know of other teachers that are prepared to take whatever action is necessary.

The probability of an active shooter is very low, but you know your son best. So talk to him at his level. Explain that there are bad people and talk about one or two things he could do if a bad person with a gun shows up at your home or somewhere else.

I did this with my son but I did not focus on it a lot. I just talked about it occasionally and reassured him that the adults he knew in his life were there to protect him so ultimately his job was to go someplace safe and let the adults do there job.
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Old 06-01-2018, 8:07 AM
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eta34 eta34 is offline
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Wait. You have active knowledge of students bringing firearms on campus routinely? You claim administrators are throwing them in the trash? If you have this knowledge, why havenít you done anything about it?
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