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Old 11-26-2019, 1:46 AM
Brbecker Brbecker is offline
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Default Ca registration and police

I’m trying to get a better understanding of how California registration system works. I don’t fully understand it. If It is illegal to have a computer system database of firearm ownership, then when the police let’s say pull you over on the way back from the range and decide to run a serial number check of your gun how are they to know if the gun is even registered in ca at all? Or if it’s registered to you or let’s say your father, if you borrowed it? And let’s say they’re running a serial number check for a crime, do they go through some sort of California computer system first checking for registration, before calling manufacturer or whatever they do? I don’t understand how they come to the determination if a hand gun is registered let alone a rifle.
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Old 11-26-2019, 2:55 AM
edgerly779 edgerly779 is offline
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After 2014 all firearms purchased and drosed in state are in Ca doj database. Lots of posts on this.
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Old 11-26-2019, 3:07 AM
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That doesn’t answer my question.
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Old 11-26-2019, 4:14 AM
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Who says a serial number database is illegal at the state level?

Your DROS info is in the CA DOJ database.

Rifles purchased prior to 1/1/2014 are not in the system.
Handguns purchased prior to, I think, 1989 are not in the system.
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Old 11-26-2019, 5:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Marauder2003 View Post
Who says a serial number database is illegal at the state level?

Your DROS info is in the CA DOJ database.

Rifles purchased prior to 1/1/2014 are not in the system.
Handguns purchased prior to, I think, 1989 are not in the system.
DROS was passed in 1923, went into effect in 1924.
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Old 11-26-2019, 5:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
I’m trying to get a better understanding of how California registration system works. I don’t fully understand it. If It is illegal to have a computer system database of firearm ownership, then when the police let’s say pull you over on the way back from the range and decide to run a serial number check of your gun how are they to know if the gun is even registered in ca at all? Or if it’s registered to you or let’s say your father, if you borrowed it? And let’s say they’re running a serial number check for a crime, do they go through some sort of California computer system first checking for registration, before calling manufacturer or whatever they do? I don’t understand how they come to the determination if a hand gun is registered let alone a rifle.
The DROS system has been around since 1924. Yes, a LEO can access firearm information, from a computer, as long as it was entered into DROS.

Otherwise it would be a search of form 4473's, which can take awhile.

Last edited by ARDude; 11-26-2019 at 5:49 AM..
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Old 11-26-2019, 5:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
I’m trying to get a better understanding of how California registration system works. I don’t fully understand it. If It is illegal to have a computer system database of firearm ownership,...
It isn’t.

CA statute doesn’t require the registration of every owned firearm. However, CA law does require the registration of the sale or transfer of firearms. CA law also allows owners to “self register” their firearms if they wish.

A computerized system of a number of firearms-related activities is authorized by CA law.

Please see OAG FAQ #26 and CA PEN 11106
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Old 11-26-2019, 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
It isn’t.



CA statute doesn’t require the registration of every owned firearm. However, CA law does require the registration of the sale or transfer of firearms. CA law also allows owners to “self register” their firearms if they wish.



A computerized system of a number of firearms-related activities is authorized by CA law.



Please see OAG FAQ #26 and CA PEN 11106
Home builds also require registration.
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Old 11-26-2019, 6:18 AM
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Home builds also require registration.
This is true, but I believe Dvrjon was referring to the many firearms that are not in DROS.
Such as long guns purchased prior to 2014, and all firearms purchased by private party prior to when it was required to go thru a dealer.
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Old 11-26-2019, 6:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
I’m trying to get a better understanding of how California registration system works. I don’t fully understand it. If It is illegal to have a computer system database of firearm ownership, then when the police let’s say pull you over on the way back from the range and decide to run a serial number check of your gun how are they to know if the gun is even registered in ca at all? Or if it’s registered to you or let’s say your father, if you borrowed it? And let’s say they’re running a serial number check for a crime, do they go through some sort of California computer system first checking for registration, before calling manufacturer or whatever they do? I don’t understand how they come to the determination if a hand gun is registered let alone a rifle.
The federal government cannot maintain a system, but the states may keep a record.
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Old 11-26-2019, 7:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
I’m trying to get a better understanding of how California registration system works. I don’t fully understand it. If It is illegal to have a computer system database of firearm ownership, then when the police let’s say pull you over on the way back from the range and decide to run a serial number check of your gun how are they to know if the gun is even registered in ca at all? Or if it’s registered to you or let’s say your father, if you borrowed it? And let’s say they’re running a serial number check for a crime, do they go through some sort of California computer system first checking for registration, before calling manufacturer or whatever they do? I don’t understand how they come to the determination if a hand gun is registered let alone a rifle.
You're asking a bad question. You start with the presumption that a computer database of firearms ownership is illegal and then use that supposition to question why a California database exists.

It's kinda like saying that "If the moon is made of green cheese, then all cars must be painted yellow" to query why there are blue painted cars on the road.

There simply is no law that prevents California from maintaining a database of firearms registrations. Since there is no prohibition, the state is free to maintain such a system.

A lot of ill-informed folks suggest that limited restriction on using (what is essentially the information drawn from Form 4473's) contained in 18 USC 926(a)(3) prohibits ALL computerized databases. It does not. It only restricts those compiled using records required by Chapter 44 of Part I of Title 18 of the U.S. Code. California's firearms database is compiled using other sources of records.
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Old 11-26-2019, 7:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Uncivil Engineer View Post
Home builds also require registration.
and assault weapons...and firearms brought into the state by new residents...and....

But, CA doesn’t require the registration of every owned firearm, and there is no overall registration requirement for firearms in CA.

(Anticipating the next poster stating, “Not yet”, in....3–2–1....)
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Old 11-26-2019, 8:42 AM
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So when sheriff Villanueva says that firearms retrieved at the home of the Saugus shooter were "unregistered" this doesn't necessarily mean "illegal" if they were rifles purchased before 2014? Makes these sound more nefarious than they really are?
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Old 11-26-2019, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Lovesick Warrior View Post
So when sheriff Villanueva says that firearms retrieved at the home of the Saugus shooter were "unregistered" this doesn't necessarily mean "illegal" if they were rifles purchased before 2014? Makes these sound more nefarious than they really are?
Supposedly the weapons used and seized were home built firearms. Currently those are required to have serial numbers. No matter when they were built.
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Lovesick Warrior View Post
So when sheriff Villanueva says that firearms retrieved at the home of the Saugus shooter were "unregistered" this doesn't necessarily mean "illegal" if they were rifles purchased before 2014? Makes these sound more nefarious than they really are?
Yes - can't have non-scary firearms!

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Originally Posted by ARDude View Post
Supposedly the weapons used and seized were home built firearms. Currently those are required to have serial numbers. No matter when they were built.
'Home built' is what is getting reported; even sounds plausible.
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Old 11-26-2019, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
You're asking a bad question. You start with the presumption that a computer database of firearms ownership is illegal and then use that supposition to question why a California database exists.

It's kinda like saying that "If the moon is made of green cheese, then all cars must be painted yellow" to query why there are blue painted cars on the road.

There simply is no law that prevents California from maintaining a database of firearms registrations. Since there is no prohibition, the state is free to maintain such a system.

A lot of ill-informed folks suggest that limited restriction on using (what is essentially the information drawn from Form 4473's) contained in 18 USC 926(a)(3) prohibits ALL computerized databases. It does not. It only restricts those compiled using records required by Chapter 44 of Part I of Title 18 of the U.S. Code. California's firearms database is compiled using other sources of records.

Ok I can understand that my initial statement of the database was incorrect on a state level. But the purpose of my post is to understand literally how Law Enforcement actually checks and deciphers serial numbers on a “routine” traffic stop.

Am I to understand the police have access to see who a gun is registered to from there car computer? If that’s the case then If it’s a rifle That was purchased prior to 2014 and it’s unregistered, why won’t they just confiscate it calling it an unregistered firearm? or if you have a pistol from 1970 that’s not registered.
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Old 11-26-2019, 2:52 PM
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^ Firearms do not have to be registered if acquired prior to 2014. If handguns acquired here then they are in database. Lots of handguns acquired outside of dros or 4473 and are not required to be registered. Stop with the unregistered nonsense. We moved here in 1959 with a passle of guns never registered any of them.

Last edited by edgerly779; 11-26-2019 at 3:05 PM..
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Old 11-26-2019, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post

Am I to understand the police have access to see who a gun is registered to from there car computer? If that’s the case then If it’s a rifle That was purchased prior to 2014 and it’s unregistered, why won’t they just confiscate it calling it an unregistered firearm? or if you have a pistol from 1970 that’s not registered.
Because 'registration', or 'being in CA's AFS database' is not a legal requirement to own, possess or use a gun in CA. That seems often to surprise TV and newspaper reporters.

Registration is an artifact of transfer paperwork or voluntary submission of other paperwork.
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Old 11-26-2019, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
Ok I can understand that my initial statement of the database was incorrect on a state level. But the purpose of my post is to understand literally how Law Enforcement actually checks and deciphers serial numbers on a “routine” traffic stop.

Am I to understand the police have access to see who a gun is registered to from there car computer? If that’s the case then If it’s a rifle That was purchased prior to 2014 and it’s unregistered, why won’t they just confiscate it calling it an unregistered firearm? or if you have a pistol from 1970 that’s not registered.
Unregistered firearms on their own, are not a violation of the law. A "home built" firearm without a serial number is.

When a LEO runs your name, serial # of a firearm, he/she is looking for verification of ID, holds/warrants, and info if firearm(s) in possession are stolen.
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Old 11-26-2019, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
Ok I can understand that my initial statement of the database was incorrect on a state level. But the purpose of my post is to understand literally how Law Enforcement actually checks and deciphers serial numbers on a “routine” traffic stop.

Am I to understand the police have access to see who a gun is registered to from there car computer? If that’s the case then If it’s a rifle That was purchased prior to 2014 and it’s unregistered, why won’t they just confiscate it calling it an unregistered firearm? or if you have a pistol from 1970 that’s not registered.
Uhh, probably because there is no source of authority to seize such a firearm?
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Old 11-26-2019, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
Ok I can understand that my initial statement of the database was incorrect on a state level. But the purpose of my post is to understand literally how Law Enforcement actually checks and deciphers serial numbers on a “routine” traffic stop.

Am I to understand the police have access to see who a gun is registered to from there car computer? If that’s the case then If it’s a rifle That was purchased prior to 2014 and it’s unregistered, why won’t they just confiscate it calling it an unregistered firearm? or if you have a pistol from 1970 that’s not registered.
Here's my question: How does LE become aware of firearms in your vehicle on a "routine" traffic stop?
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Old 11-26-2019, 4:47 PM
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I suspect they become aware firearms are present based on how the driver answers the question “are there any firearms in the car.”
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Old 11-26-2019, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by flyer898 View Post
I suspect they become aware firearms are present based on how the driver answers the question “are there any firearms in the car.”
I have never been asked that on a traffic stop. But then, I don't have any stickers of any kind on any of my vehicles. YMMV.
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Old 11-26-2019, 5:21 PM
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Some things posted, especially by RickD here, alerted me to the fact that what I posted above about the Federal law prohibiting a database of firearms ownership not applying to the states was wrong and so I looked it up. Here is what the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 [18 U.S.C. 926] says in regard to rules and records for Federal Firearm Licensees

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No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926

In short, the United States Attorney General may not prescribe records to be maintained at a facility of the United States or one of the States. I don't see where this, without looking further, prevents a State from prescribing regulations for its maintenance of such a data base.

Last edited by Chewy65; 11-26-2019 at 5:25 PM..
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Old 11-26-2019, 5:32 PM
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I have never been asked that on a traffic stop. But then, I don't have any stickers of any kind on any of my vehicles. YMMV.
I have, but only after being asked during a traffic stop for expired registration, where was I coming from and I said from the local firing range. I told him I had a couple of unloaded shotguns in the back and the officer didn't ask anything more about them. Nor did he search the car. As my registration was in fact paid. but I had yet to afix the current tabs, I got a fix-it ticket.

Niether ownership of firearms in a data base nor stickers on your car are going to tell the LEO that you have a firearm with you at that time. Same for a CCW. Now spidy sense is different.
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Old 11-26-2019, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ARDude View Post
Unregistered firearms on their own, are not a violation of the law. A "home built" firearm without a serial number is.

When a LEO runs your name, serial # of a firearm, he/she is looking for verification of ID, holds/warrants, and info if firearm(s) in possession are stolen.
This seems to answer my question. Based on this answer, it appears police can not see who the gun is registered to, only if it’s stolen.
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Old 11-26-2019, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brbecker View Post
This seems to answer my question. Based on this answer, it appears police can not see who the gun is registered to, only if it’s stolen.
If the gun is in AFS, and the officer's agency does that kind of thing, the query can be sent to AFS and the return info can be transmitted to the officer.
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Old 11-26-2019, 6:40 PM
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This seems to answer my question. Based on this answer, it appears police can not see who the gun is registered to, only if it’s stolen.
That is a no. If the firearm is in AFS, the officer will know who's name(s) are registered to it.

But as I said, they would not be interested in it unless it came up stolen. Or if you had any holds/warrants. Then the firearm would be taken.
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Old 11-26-2019, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ARDude View Post
That is a no. If the firearm is in AFS, the officer will know who's name(s) are registered to it.

But as I said, they would not be interested in it unless it came up stolen. Or if you had any holds/warrants. Then the firearm would be taken.
Thank you for the clarification.
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Old 11-26-2019, 7:05 PM
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Note that the database can also become inaccurate due to the following:

A California resident purchases a firearm, and it is entered into the database. The person later moves to another state, where it is legal to transfer without even an FFL. The person sells the item to another resident of the new state. Later, the new purchaser brings the firearm into California on a visit. The information in the CA database still shows the original purchaser as the registered possessor.

Perfectly legal, so under what grounds can a CA LEO confiscate the item from its legal owner?

The database is a best effort deal. It is not intended for the purpose that you think it is. It is mostly a guide.

It can, however, be used to catch things such as a person in possession of an unregistered AW, etc.

Last edited by mrdd; 11-26-2019 at 7:08 PM..
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Old 11-26-2019, 8:07 PM
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Note that the database can also become inaccurate due to the following:

A California resident purchases a firearm, and it is entered into the database. The person later moves to another state, where it is legal to transfer without even an FFL. The person sells the item to another resident of the new state. Later, the new purchaser brings the firearm into California on a visit. The information in the CA database still shows the original purchaser as the registered possessor.
WRONG - The database does not indicate who is the "registered possessor" of a firearm. All that the AFS database purports to report is that the California resident purchased the firearm on the date indicated. That information remains accurate even if the weapon is later transferred out of state and then returned to the state in the manner that you describe. It's important to remember that the AFS is an archival database only, you're trying to treat it as a current database which it is not.

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Perfectly legal, so under what grounds can a CA LEO confiscate the item from its legal owner?
You're right on point here. There is no source of authority to confiscate a firearm from an individual under these circumstances.

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Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
The database is a best effort deal. It is not intended for the purpose that you think it is. It is mostly a guide.
Close. It's not really a "guide." It's a repository of archival records. Think of it like a "snapshot" of what things looked like on the date of the record. Do not try to view it as a "motion picture" of what transpired over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdd View Post
It can, however, be used to catch things such as a person in possession of an unregistered AW, etc.
And you're right on point again. The AFS can be a great investigative tool, but it requires an LEO to properly interpret its content.
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